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As far as I've searched, it appears that in 2E Paizo have abandoned the 'Outsider' name and instead have broken the traditional outsiders of 1st edition in various groups or families. However, except from the elemental trait, neither of them mention the need of sleeping, drinking, eating and breathing!
Groups
-Celestial (Creatures that hail from or have a strong connection to the good-aligned planes are called celestials. Celestials can survive the basic environmental effects of planes in the Outer Sphere.)
-Elemental (Elementals are creatures directly tied to an element and native to the Elemental Planes. Elementals don’t need to breathe.)
-Fiend (Creatures that hail from or have a strong connection to the evil-aligned planes are called fiends. Fiends can survive the basic environmental effects of planes in the Outer Sphere.)
-Monitor (Creatures that hail from or have a strong connection to the neutrally aligned planes are called monitors. Monitors can survive the basic environmental effects of planes in the Outer Sphere.)
Families
-Aeon (These monitors are the self-styled defenders of reality. Traditional aeons have dualistic natures and forms, and they hold a dichotomy of interests, though axiomites and inevitables do not. Aeons other than axiomites and inevitables communicate via a strange telepathic hodgepodge of sensory sending called envisioning.)
-Angel (This family of celestials is native to the plane of Nirvana. Most angels are neutral good, have darkvision, and have a weakness to evil damage.)
-Archon (Members of this family of celestials are the protectors of Heaven and are lawful good. They have darkvision and a weakness to evil damage.)
-Azata (This family of celestials is native to Elysium. They are typically chaotic good and have darkvision and a weakness to evil and cold iron.)
-Daemon (A family of fiends spawned on the desolate plane of Abaddon, most daemons are neutral evil. They typically have darkvision and weakness to good damage.)
-Demon (A family of fiends, demons hail from or trace their origins to the Abyss. Most are irredeemably chaotic evil and have darkvision.)
-Devil (A family of fiends from Hell, most devils are irredeemably lawful evil. They typically have greater darkvision, immunity to fire, and telepathy.)
-Genie (The diverse families of genies hold positions of prominence on the Elemental Planes. They have powerful magical abilities.)
-Inevitable (These constructed aeons were created by the axiomites. Each type of inevitable is dedicated to a specific task. Most inevitables have weakness to chaotic damage.)
-Protean (A family of monitors spawned within the Maelstrom, these creatures are guardians of disorder and are chaotic neutral. They typically have darkvision, an amorphous anatomy, and a weakness to lawful damage.)
-Rakshasa (Reincarnations of evil souls, rakshasas are fiends that live on the Material Plane.)
-Velstrac (no description provided!)
Taking in consideration the lengths the developers have explained many aspects of the game, I'm in doubt if this is a change or a mistake.
Am I missing something/somewhere that states otherwise?
I think this only mean that except for the "Long way back ancestor"
Outsider are not yet discussed... We really don't know what they will do with real outsider yet... Let's wait and hope ;)
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If you are immune to needing to eat, drink, and breathe in a Hellish landscape with no food, water, and plenty of poison gases, then you probably don't need to worry about not drinking in a mortal desert.
Can you point me to where in the rules it states that they are immune to this? I've checked the description of the planes and, taking Hell as in your exemple, there is no mention of not existing food, water, air or anything like that.
The only thing it is mentioned is their immunity to the environmental effects of the Outer Planes, but I believe it is a stretch to say the need to eat is an environmental effect.
Does it really matter? We don't know if they poop, fornicate, or blink either.
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But what if I challenge a devil to a staring contest for my soul! These are things I must know!
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Does it really matter? We don't know if they poop, fornicate, or blink either.
If one see the creatures from the bestiary as just numbers and abilities, probably not. If one is interested in why they would do something or be affected by something, yes they do. Considering how they used to specify these things in 1st edition and even specified elementals DO NOT breath, I believe it does matter.
Answering some of your points, if they eat, they poop. They DO fornicate, since we have tieflings and aasimar.
If you are designing an adventure in another plane with castles and other structures, would you include a kitchen if they don't eat? A bed in a bedroom if they don't sleep? If no outsiders need to breath, does the Outer Planes even have breathable air?
Another thing, with much clearer application, that was also left out was if the outsiders have souls. In 1st edition, they did not. In 2E it is not stated anywhere I believe. Are these outsiders affected by the Breath of Life, Raise Dead and Revival?
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Go with whatever suits your story best. If you want your Inevitable to have a bed to sleep on, get him one. If you want him to have a bed despite not needing one as to confuse everybody and trigger existential questions to the tune of "can I sleep if I don't need to?", go for it.
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This question may impact the
"This outsider was summoned and has been a guardian here for 1,000 years"
Staple
They cannot do this without adequate supplies
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I'd assume all of them don't need to eat.
After all, elementals clearly don't have to, and yet it's unstated. It's unstated because there are no mechanics for how much monsters need to eat. So I'd assume current canon stands on that one. This also allows the 'summoned guardian' thing to continue without supplies.
Breathing is more relevant mechanically, and seems to be something non-elementals now need to do.
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Yes, I can do whatever I want in my games, but that was never in question.
As Haldrick mentioned, some questions, even it appearing nonsensical or useless are important for consistency, which is something everyone (IMO) should try to achieve in their games/stories/movies and so on. It strengthens the plot.
I'd assume all of them don't need to eat.
After all, elementals clearly don't have to, and yet it's unstated. It's unstated because there are no mechanics for how much monsters need to eat. So I'd assume current canon stands on that one. This also allows the 'summoned guardian' thing to continue without supplies.
Breathing is more relevant mechanically, and seems to be something non-elementals now need to do.
I agree with you.
In 1st edition, all the creatures with these new traits (as per the original post) were outsiders, which in the general type description had the phrase "Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep", while the elemental subtype had the phrase "Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep".
It appears their intention was to keep the original outsider characteristics, but somehow forgot to include them to their new traits description. It looks like they intended to have an "outsider trait" that would have all this information and the elementals with their "elemental trait" would further alter the breath part.
To reinforce this, take the Gancanagh Azata, with its vulnerability to smoke: "Vulnerable to Smoke A gancanagh’s lungs can’t tolerate smoke. They take a –2 circumstance penalty to saving throws against effects that create some form of smoke".
I think this only mean that except for the "Long way back ancestor"
Outsider are not yet discussed... We really don't know what they will do with real outsider yet... Let's wait and hope ;)
"Outsider" isn't a thing anymore. The families listed in the OP are "real outsiders".
Is it likely an intended change? No. So carry on from first edition. If you care, you can make the choice that’s best for your game.
Creative Director
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If we haven't specifically said something changed in a 2nd edition source, it's safe to assume that the lore from 1st edition still holds true. AKA: Demons, devils, angels, etc. (the creatures we once grouped as "outsiders") do breathe, but only need to eat or drink if they feel like it.
We want the stories we told in 1st edition to be as viable and untouched by the rules changes as possible, and as folks point out, there's plenty of cases in the past (and will be so in the future) of devils or demons or whatever who have been conjured to guard a room and have been stuck there for centuries without food or water.
An unannounced adventure I've been working on has several critters doing just this, for example, so it hasn't changed from 1st edition as far as I know (or want).
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If we haven't specifically said something changed in a 2nd edition source, it's safe to assume that the lore from 1st edition still holds true. AKA: Demons, devils, angels, etc. (the creatures we once grouped as "outsiders") do breathe, but only need to eat or drink if they feel like it.
We want the stories we told in 1st edition to be as viable and untouched by the rules changes as possible, and as folks point out, there's plenty of cases in the past (and will be so in the future) of devils or demons or whatever who have been conjured to guard a room and have been stuck there for centuries without food or water.
An unannounced adventure I've been working on has several critters doing just this, for example, so it hasn't changed from 1st edition as far as I know (or want).
Can I leap in on this with another "has this changed?" question?
The difference between called and summoned "outsiders" seems to have disappeared. Previously, summoned outsiders had a couple of restrictions (no teleporting and summoning), but also a major advantage: if killed, they'd just respawn. While a called outsider had access to all their powers, but if killed, was really dead.
In a certain PFS2 scenario,
So how does killing outsiders work nowadays?
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Creative Director
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Can I leap in on this with another "has this changed?" question?
The difference between called and summoned "outsiders" seems to have disappeared. Previously, summoned outsiders had a couple of restrictions (no teleporting and summoning), but also a major advantage: if killed, they'd just respawn. While a called outsider had access to all their powers, but if killed, was really dead.
In a certain PFS2 scenario,
** spoiler omitted **
So how does killing outsiders work nowadays?
It should work the same. Exceptions can exist, of course, as the story requries, but my preference is that a creature isn't granted immortality simply by dint of being conjured to another location.
Considering multiple places in Hell and The Abyss are full of fire, and fire consumes oxygen, I'm guessing at least demons and devils don't need to breathe
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Considering multiple places in Hell and The Abyss are full of fire, and fire consumes oxygen, I'm guessing at least demons and devils don't need to breathe
If there wasn't enough oxygen to breathe, the fire world eventually go out. Since the fire is eternal, obviously there's either new air coming in from somewhere, or the fire is magical and doesn't consume oxygen.
So this doesn't follow at all.
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Suddenly I'm reminded of that old "is Hell exothermic?" joke... :)
I would think this also matters to a champion who takes the celestial form feat, wouldn't it? Another small benefit
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I would think this also matters to a champion who takes the celestial form feat, wouldn't it? Another small benefit
I'd say, in my games at least, that a thing like celestial form gives ONLY the benefits the ability lists. Remember, monsters and PCs use different rules in 2nd edition. Once you start assuming that everything a monster gets translates directly to a PC who assumes that monster's form or gains that monster as a companion via a class ability or the like, things get weird.
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I would think this also matters to a champion who takes the celestial form feat, wouldn't it? Another small benefit
Adding to what James Jacob said, if you are house ruling to give the champion these additional benefits, it would also make sense to give them the restriction of not being affect by spells/rituals/abilities that would bring this character back to life.
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Creative Director
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I would think this also matters to a champion who takes the celestial form feat, wouldn't it? Another small benefitAdding to what James Jacob said, if you are house ruling to give the champion these additional benefits, it would also make sense to give them the restriction of not being affect by spells/rituals/abilities that would bring this character back to life.
As far as I know, that bit about it being tougher to bring "what-we-once-called-outsiders" back to life being tougher was abandoned. That's not a thing in 2nd edition, so putting that limitation on a champion would very MUCH be a house rule. :-P
Also, from the office of pedantry and name pride: it's Jacobs with an "s" at the end.
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I would think this also matters to a champion who takes the celestial form feat, wouldn't it? Another small benefitAdding to what James Jacob said, if you are house ruling to give the champion these additional benefits, it would also make sense to give them the restriction of not being affect by spells/rituals/abilities that would bring this character back to life.As far as I know, that bit about it being tougher to bring "what-we-once-called-outsiders" back to life being tougher was abandoned. That's not a thing in 2nd edition, so putting that limitation on a champion would very MUCH be a house rule. :-P
Also, from the office of pedantry and name pride: it's Jacobs with an "s" at the end.
Sorry for misspelling your name!
Now I'm really confused by your first answer to this thread!
If we haven't specifically said something changed in a 2nd edition source, it's safe to assume that the lore from 1st edition still holds true. AKA: Demons, devils, angels, etc. (the creatures we once grouped as "outsiders") do breathe, but only need to eat or drink if they feel like it.
Since I have not found it anywhere stating that the "what-we-once-called-outsiders" now have a dual nature as any living creature, my previous answer was assuming this bit of lore from 1st edition was also true, much like the breath/eat/sleep part...
I would think this also matters to a champion who takes the celestial form feat, wouldn't it? Another small benefitAdding to what James Jacob said, if you are house ruling to give the champion these additional benefits, it would also make sense to give them the restriction of not being affect by spells/rituals/abilities that would bring this character back to life.
Yeah that's true. But I would give them anything listed in the celestial trait at least. Maybe it'll get officially expanded in the future.
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Now I'm really confused by your first answer to this thread!
James Jacobs wrote:
If we haven't specifically said something changed in a 2nd edition source, it's safe to assume that the lore from 1st edition still holds true. AKA: Demons, devils, angels, etc. (the creatures we once grouped as "outsiders") do breathe, but only need to eat or drink if they feel like it.
Since I have not found it anywhere stating that the "what-we-once-called-outsiders" now have a dual nature as any living creature, my previous answer was assuming this bit of lore from 1st edition was also true, much like the breath/eat/sleep part...
Demons and angels and the rest do still have a "soul and body are one" situation but in 2nd edition that's now pretty much just a cosmetic bit of flavor. it doesn't have any rules impact any more, since you'll note that nowhere in raise dead or resurrection or the rest does it call them out as not being able to be brought back to life.
It's a bit weird, but that's the way it is. Some deeper insight for the curious...
Rules with no flavor to support them annoy me, so when we went forward with Pathfinder, and decided to retain as much of the 3.5 rules as possible because we were VERY worried about losing customers if we made too many changes to the rules they already loved and knew, I came up with some flavor reasons why outsiders couldn't be raised from the dead, spinning some lore about how their soul and body were one and that prevented all but the most powerful magic from bringing them back to life.
Fast forward to 2nd edition, and we're no longer so timid about changing the rules where we think they're just cluttered or could be improved. The reason to drop "outsider" was to prevent a single category of monster from being overwhelmingly everywhere, as far as I know (in 1st edition "Outsider" was often the best choice for ranger favored enemies or bane weapons or the like simply because it had such an overwhelming majority of the monsters in its category).
At the same time, the design team decided to simplify the rules for bringing folks back to life by removing the arbitrary stipulation that certain monsters just... couldn't. Since the word "outsider" was going away as well, this is a case where a previous rule could just go away and the game gets one tiny step closer to easier to play; now you don't have to keep in mind which creatures can or can't be brought back to life. It works on all of them, provided the life they're being brought back to is the same one the soul came from. (Pharasma's judgment serves as a "zero point" on either side of things in this case, so that if you bring a demon back from death, it comes back as that demon, not the mortal soul it originally formed from.)
It's one of many cases where a newcomer to Pathfinder has an easier time of learning the rules than someone who played 1st edition, alas.
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Demons and angels and the rest do still have a "soul and body are one" situation but in 2nd edition that's now pretty much just a cosmetic bit of flavor. it doesn't have any rules impact any more, since you'll note that nowhere in raise dead or resurrection or the rest does it call them out as not being able to be brought back to life.
It's a bit weird, but that's the way it is. Some deeper insight for the curious...
** spoiler omitted **...
That is very cool and I total understand your reasons. Thanks for sharing this with us.
If possible, could you elaborate about the part about both the Raise Dead spell and the Ressurrect rituals mentioning the soul of such creatures, the time they spent in the graveyard and Pharasma part in allowing or not such creature to return?
Since you said they are still "one" in regards to soul and body, I believe there would be no soul (or essence, or whatever) separating from the body and traveling to the Boneyard. So while they are dead, they go nowhere, right?
Would Pharasma still judge them if they should be raised or not, even if they are not in her domain (Graveyard)? I believe she would allow no Daemons to be revived!
Can these creatures "wish not to return to life", even if there is no part of them anywhere "alive" to choose this?
If these creatures' bodies are disintegrated, would they still be able to be resurrected, since this would effectively destroy both their bodies and souls?
I know these are a lot of questions, but I really love to know the "whys" behind the rules and lore of our game!
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Creative Director
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If possible, could you elaborate about the part about both the Raise Dead spell and the Ressurrect rituals mentioning the soul of such creatures, the time they spent in the graveyard and Pharasma part in allowing or not such creature to return?
Since you said they are still "one" in regards to soul and body, I believe there would be no soul (or essence, or whatever) separating from the body and traveling to the Boneyard. So while they are dead, they go nowhere, right?
Pharasma doesn't judge outsiders when they die. Their souls just drift away and get recycled into the soulstream and that energy fuels new souls. As with judgment, the time it takes for this to occur is left to the GM to determine as the story needs; it can happen instantly, or it can take centuries or more.
Would Pharasma still judge them if they should be raised or not, even if they are not in her domain (Graveyard)? I believe she would allow no Daemons to be revived!
She'd still not want to see outsiders turned undead, but as with mortal souls, she doesn't play favorites; a daemon can be brought back to life without any entanglement from Pharasma.
Can these creatures "wish not to return to life", even if there is no part of them anywhere "alive" to choose this?
ANY creature can decide not to return to life. You can't bring something back to life that wants to stay dead.
If these creatures' bodies are disintegrated, would they still be able to be resurrected, since this would effectively destroy both their bodies and souls?
If a body is disintegrated, whether or not that thing can be restored to life is determined by the power of the spell or ritual doing the restoring to life; doesn't matter if the body was a mortal or an outsider or whatever else. Disintegrate only destroys the physical part of a creature's body, so casting it on an outsider would just strip the physical away from the soul. Likewise, a soul trap effect would suck the soul out of the physical, leaving the body inert and empty and, basically, dead.
Organized Play Developer
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In a certain PFS2 scenario,** spoiler omitted **
So how does killing outsiders work nowadays?
The devil isn't immortal, it's bound by a ritual contract it really doesn't want to be stuck with and if it's killed, the power of that ritual reforms the devil back in its location. The scenario is pretty explicit that it is the contract ritual and not the fact that it's a devil which leads to this result. This would be equally true if a goblin were bound in the same way and was constantly resurrected by a powerful, location-bound ritual. Its outsider status is secondary to the effect you're talking about.
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I mean, the real problem I had with "outsider" is that if it does effectively mean "a native resident of a different plane" then from the perspective of a resident of, say, the Astral plane people from the Material plane are "outsiders".
There really shouldn't be rules intrinsic to "this person is from a different plane than I am" independent of what those two planes actually are.
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Unless your name is Geb, I guess?Can these creatures "wish not to return to life", even if there is no part of them anywhere "alive" to choose this?ANY creature can decide not to return to life. You can't bring something back to life that wants to stay dead.
Nope, even then. Geb never restored someone to life as far as I know. (That's generally something a wizard can only do with a wish, and Geb never struck me as the kind of guy who'd use such powerful magic for an act of kindness or mercy.)
If you're talking about him turning Arazni into a lich, that's not bringing someone back to life; that's turning someone undead against their will, which is the most common way undead come about, and it's why creating undead is (99.999% of the time) an evil act.
If you're talking about him turning Arazni into a lich, that's not bringing someone back to life; that's turning someone undead against their will, which is the most common way undead come about, and it's why creating undead is (99.999% of the time) an evil act.
If creating undead is evil because it's done "against their will" then does this mean if someone requests to be raised as undead the act isn't evil? Would this also make spells such as Suggestion inherently evil as they would be cast against the will of their victims?
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If creating undead is evil because it's done "against their will" then does this mean if someone requests to be raised as undead the act isn't evil? Would this also make spells such as Suggestion inherently evil as they would be cast against the will of their victims?
If you're talking about him turning Arazni into a lich, that's not bringing someone back to life; that's turning someone undead against their will, which is the most common way undead come about, and it's why creating undead is (99.999% of the time) an evil act.
That's also generally still evil, in most part to retain the story element in Golarion that undead are almost always evil (if only so that when we want to tell a non-evil undead story, which we've done several times, it feels special and not repetitive or even cliche). Obviously, how it works in a home game is instead up to the GM.
And frankly, I think most mind control spells are kinda evil as well; they take away agency and free will, after all. And as I've said before, there's VERY few examples in fiction where a mind controlling character is a good guy. In most cases the mind controller is evil. The closest I've seen anyone come to mentioning a mind controller from fiction who wasn't evil in that storyline is Professor X... but even then, he's much more than mind control and more like an illusionist in most of the stories I've seen. Legion is a great example of how mind control is evil. So is Jessica Jones, several Stephen King stories, all the stories about the evil hypnotists in the horror genre, etc.
We put a sidebar in the core rulebook talking about this. I pushed to have some spells of this nature, particularly dominate, have the evil trait, but design decided instead to take the sidebar approach.
And as a final note, in most stories where a character is using pedantry or debating to assert their actions aren't evil... I find that they're still being evil. Manipulation and gaslighting and slavery and all the other ways one character takes away the agency of another character is much more at home on the evil side of the axis than good, in my opinion.
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From what I remember of the lore Pharasma mostly judges mortals, who then get sent to become part of the planes. People with contracts skip the judging and go directly to the other party.
My question is how does the new rules relate to things like Summoner and Spiritualists? Eidolons and Phantoms used to go with "when destroyed, they get sent back", does this continue? Or is it still too early to say?
The way soul judgment works is more in the camp of flavor than rules.
For things like eidolons or phantoms, their fate is to be judged after their purpose is fufilled, which won't happen until the story wants it to happen, or when the summoner or spiritualist themselves dies and doesn't come back. For a PC, that means they get to decide when and if an eidolon or phantom is sent on and judged. For an NPC, the GM decides.
I mean, the real problem I had with "outsider" is that if it does effectively mean "a native resident of a different plane" then from the perspective of a resident of, say, the Astral plane people from the Material plane are "outsiders".
There really shouldn't be rules intrinsic to "this person is from a different plane than I am" independent of what those two planes actually are.
Outsider doesn't mean from a different Plane. It means from an Outer Plane. Things like Elementals should have never been Outsiders.
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Outsider doesn't mean from a different Plane. It means from an Outer Plane. Things like Elementals should have never been Outsiders.I mean, the real problem I had with "outsider" is that if it does effectively mean "a native resident of a different plane" then from the perspective of a resident of, say, the Astral plane people from the Material plane are "outsiders".
There really shouldn't be rules intrinsic to "this person is from a different plane than I am" independent of what those two planes actually are.
That is exactly what Outsider means though, it’s why Outsiders from the Material are called Native Outsiders.
Also *points at Geniekind, Jyoti, and everything from the Negative Energy Plane*
...and it's why creating undead is (99.999% of the time) an evil act.So you're telling me there's a chance.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baelnorn_lich
Though I don't know if such things exist on Golarion. Never played PF1.