When I first read the rules for Cackle I thought it sustained all sustainable spells at once, so I thought it was really interesting and unique. Then I read it again and realised that isn't the case. I think my version is better. What do you think? Should Paizo change it for the full release to be like what I originally understood it as?
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I suspect we'll see Cackle remain as sustaining a single effect as a default, though I wouldn't be surprised if there was a feat or ability to alter this as suggested, if only for your hexes. This upgrade is quite potent (getting extra Sustains is currently rated as a 16th level feat), but could be an interesting niche for Witches in general as the sustain caster.
They already got an ability in this niche as the 20th level feat Echoing Cackle, which automatically sustained your hexes for an entire minute with a single Cackle, but that doesn't necessarily preclude them exploring the space earlier. I think that 10th level would be about fair to start getting multi-sustain, albeit just limited to hexes. It would certainly enable them to push hexes a little harder, and explore cantrip hexes as well, since you couldn't really multiclass to abuse this.
What I really want to see, though, is the option to add riders to Cackle. A feat that enables you to Demoralise as a free action following Cackle would be highly thematic and quite potent.
I suspect we'll see Cackle remain as sustaining a single effect as a default, though I wouldn't be surprised if there was a feat or ability to alter this as suggested, if only for your hexes. This upgrade is quite potent (getting extra Sustains is currently rated as a 16th level feat), but could be an interesting niche for Witches in general as the sustain caster.
They already got an ability in this niche as the 20th level feat Echoing Cackle, which automatically sustained your hexes for an entire minute with a single Cackle, but that doesn't necessarily preclude them exploring the space earlier. I think that 10th level would be about fair to start getting multi-sustain, albeit just limited to hexes. It would certainly enable them to push hexes a little harder, and explore cantrip hexes as well, since you couldn't really multiclass to abuse this.
What I really want to see, though, is the option to add riders to Cackle. A feat that enables you to Demoralise as a free action following Cackle would be highly thematic and quite potent.
I like both of these ideas! I think 10th level is bit late, I'd probably make it 6th or 8th. I definitely like the idea of adding debuffs to Cackle itself, too.
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I mean, even a feat that lets you sustain 2 spells as 1 action would be great. Not on the rank of lv16 effortless concentration, but a very respectable lv10 pick.
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IF Cackle includes wording that enables it to work to Sustain a Spell in addition to the normal Sustain a Spell Action but otherwise works how it did in the Playtest I would be satisfied with its function but I think it will need this to be laid out explicitly so to "educate" the reader that is the actual intent.
With Sustain a Spell only being usable for the VAST majority of Spells once per Round, opening up the ability for a Witch to keep 2 Sustained Spells going at the same time actually opens a whole lot of interesting doors in terms of them actually playing different at the table and could showcase a unique "magical control" method that isn't accessible to other spellcasters.
Feats to further improve it would be welcome too such as a Feat that lets you use the Cackle Action as part of casting another Hex Focus Spell or even as a Reaction.
I do NOT think Cackle as it was written was good enough at all, even as a base ability which has Feats that can improve it, it needs to be able to stand on its own as something interesting to do and currently the only time it would ever come into play is in extremely rare circumstances where the Traits of the action matter VS the normal Sustain a Spell Action.
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I've been thinking about homebrewing Cackle to allow you to move an active hex from one creature to another, allowing the new creature a new saving throw of course. Could also be used after a hexed creature dies.
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I do NOT think Cackle as it was written was good enough at all, even as a base ability which has Feats that can improve it, it needs to be able to stand on its own as something interesting to do and currently the only time it would ever come into play is in extremely rare circumstances where the Traits of the action matter VS the normal Sustain a Spell Action.
This was how I felt about it: 99% of the time it was just a waste of word count as it was an extremely niche change over the default action. Add to that that you are forced to cackle to make it work and it can get be annoying even if you can find that one situation where it's actually helpful.
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I felt cackle should move to a feat instead of a base feature and it should be an improved sustain for hexes only. Lots of ways to do that, like refreshing multiple hexes, sustaining for longer, or powering up hexes.
I do NOT think Cackle as it was written was good enough at all
To be fair, Cackle as written wasn't supposed to be. It's essentially a flavor skill. Contrast the Wizard and Witch's kit and they're nearly identical in power budget before Cackle (with Wizard getting one extra spell per day but Witch getter more flexibility with focus spells and their fourth spell slot). There isn't really room for a powerful cackle.
I suspect that Cackle will either remain the same or become a feat rather than a standard option more than I expect it to get buffed from the launch version. Unless the Witch gets downgraded into a 3 spell caster like Druid or Bard, in which case we might see them get a more robust Cackle as part of their upgraded kit. I feel like that might be better for the Witch overall, 3 spell casters get more toys.
There isn't really room for a powerful cackle.
I wish there was room for a cackle that was actually useful though instead of a slightly reflavored Sustaining a Spell... Now it wouldn't need to be powerful but I'd like for it to be something that would be useful most of the time instead of what it was: something that wasn't an improvement over a basic action almost every time you'd use it. Heck, it could be something as simple as a +1 counteract checks for hexes cast after it.
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Same. I'm not a huge fan of how bare bones the class features on full casters are this edition. That's why I say Witch might be better off bumping down to 3 spells a day and getting more interesting secondary features or unique cantrips like Bard or something.
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If cackle is as much of a nothing-feature as it was in the playtest, I'd argue it harms the class more than it helps. Having an ability that does nothing (or close to nothing) is really bad for a new player's understanding and first impression of the class.
I'm hoping it comes back as a feat and actually does something - there is a ton of design space (frighten + sustain could be amazing and so flavorful).
Same. I'm not a huge fan of how bare bones the class features on full casters are this edition. That's why I say Witch might be better off bumping down to 3 spells a day and getting more interesting secondary features or unique cantrips like Bard or something.
That was my thought too, more bard like than wizard like: for me interesting hex use round to round is more important to it's identity than generic spell use.
Actually now that I think of it, cackle could be made into a focus spell and that way it could have some oomph to it: something like a Lingering Composition for hexes could be interesting.
Here's a potentially unusual idea. What if the Witch only got 2 spells per level at every level, but had a TON of extra base class features. Cackle that can do something really neat like be used multiple times on the same spell in a round, or demoralize and sustain at the same time, or let you freely move sustained spells from one person to another (including if they die while the spell is on them). Then also give them more powerful Hexes and Cantrip Hexes. Then also majorly buff up the Familiars so that they are actively useful in exploration and encounter mode (though never as an attacker themselves). AND give them the choice of their spell list along with a full selection of bonus spells via Patron and maybe even a passive benefit from their Patron's theme like what we see with the Oracle.
Sorry, I know that the discussion on the Playtest Witch is over, but I just REALLY care about the Witch I really want to see it be something really cool...
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*Grumble*
Just makes me want to pen my own witch variant rules more.