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Hey all! Going to beat this horse again. It has been YEARS since Paizo had a contract for novels. Where are you all at on this? Really enjoyed the books and miss them. I don’t even want one bimonthly, just 1 or 2 a year would suffice. Just something! Hopefully you all can get this started soon. I’m so tired of reading Conan books all these years and now starting The Sword of Truth series. If you all could do 1 book for each system a year, that would please a good portion of us, I believe. You all have a good following, good products, and more importantly, a good interest from us. Please get this done.
Thank you!
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I too am interested in Starfinder and Pathfinder novels. The stories on the blog are great but I hunger for more.
I would like more than 1 a year but I am a prolific reader.
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As someone who bought every pathfinder tales novel, I second this request.
I dislike providing negative data-points because I'm a firm believer in "there are things for other people", but I suspect I wouldn't purchase many/any new novels. I'm a voracious reader, but the loss of inertia over the last few years has my interest in novelized Golarion lore stalled out. Some of the novels were excellent and some were mere okay, but I was never "addicted". As such, now that we've had years of enforced cold-turkey, I don't see myself restarting the habit. I don't know how many people share my time-induced apathy, but knowing that some people who previous purchasers wouldn't hop back on the bandwagon might help avoid a financial mistake.
Paizo would have to look at this carefully before trying to get back in (even if they could).
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I appreciate the comment Anguish but well done novels can interest people in playing the game and attracting new players to Pathfinder and Starfinder so its not just about rusted on fans.
Computer games (Kingmaker) podcasts and twitch/youtube series are all good to attract interest in Golarion and Pathfinder. Novels, even if only published in pdf, audiobooks are a great way to attract new fans. With the right writers maybe even a movie or TV show one day.
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That was the case 20 years ago, but these days tie-in novels to tabletop gaming franchises are no longer as popular. TSR/WotC used to produce barrages of books that tied in to various elements of D&D, these days it's barely anything. The fact that Pathfinder novels failed to return the investment only proves that.
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That was the case 20 years ago, but these days tie-in novels to tabletop gaming franchises are no longer as popular. TSR/WotC used to produce barrages of books that tied in to various elements of D&D, these days it's barely anything. The fact that Pathfinder novels failed to return the investment only proves that.
That’s incredibly unfortunate. Perhaps the “barrage” approach was part of the problem? If Paizo released 2-3 novels a year, in line with the rate of its other subscriptions, they could spend time advertising and hyping up each release while spending less?
I notice from the wiki Tor was releasing books bimonthly. While avid book readers like myself could gulp those up in a heartbeat, that seems like a lot of reading to catch up on real fast for anyone who doesn’t keep up regularly. If they took a cue from their other lines and included backmatter with each book, like gazetteer, character stats (and art for the book’s characters with those stats), and perhaps tied each few novels in with a theme to broadcast during the year (this year’s novels are about the war against Tar-Baphon, and next year is all about Tian-Xia), you could attract people with lots of varying interests, and have an entire year to advertise two or three different products fresh. Whether those people are interested in lore, pretty art, interesting NPCs to use in home campaigns, or simply a damn good story.
Honestly, I’m trying to picture an amount I’d consider too high for just one good Starfinder novel written by James Sutter. I just can’t see that number yet.
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If WotC isn't making money by releasing books about Drizzt, Strahd, Elminster or whoever else is to any degree recognisable outside Joey's basement on Friday gaming night, you can imagine just how far can Paizo go with Valeros and Seoni. Heck, there even aren't any novelisations of Critical Role and that's perhaps the biggest thing right now in D&D and immediate surroundings.
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Heck, there even aren't any novelisations of Critical Role and that's perhaps the biggest thing right now in D&D and immediate surroundings.
There are comics, though.
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How can I say this tactfully? The market for game-based novels is not what it used to be. While this not my personal are of expertise, my sister who is a book-buyer for a major library system, says the genre has all but disappeared. Although I'm sure indie publishing continues.
Paizo loves Pathfinder and Starfinder fiction, as indicated by our commitment to free flash fiction on paizo.com. We continue to observe the market to seek the best path forward.
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How can I say this tactfully? The market for game-based novels is not what it used to be. While this not my personal are of expertise, my sister who is a book-buyer for a major library system, says the genre has all but disappeared. Although I'm sure indie publishing continues.
Paizo loves Pathfinder and Starfinder fiction, as indicated by our commitment to free flash fiction on paizo.com. We continue to observe the market to seek the best path forward.
Thanks Aaron for pitching in. This is pretty disheartening, to say the least. Thank y’all for putting out the fiction you do on the blogs — they really are incredible. Hope at some point the genre resurrects. I seem to be behind on the times, but I really don’t understand why this genre isn’t getting even bigger in light of tabletop rpgs’ current renaissance.
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Would a PDF serial subscription be viable?
I'm delighted to have the web fiction back, but I do deeply miss the novels and the fiction in the back of the APs (on account of it being less fiction, I'm okay with the current set up of the APs' toolbox).
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I'd subscribe to a Pathfinder Tales line, if its at most 2 books per year.
I would say the book market isn't what is used to be. With self publishing and a ton of books available cheap on Kindle and similar its not surprising branded books that have a higher price (generally due to better writing, editing and publishing values) don't sell as well as they used to.
I am sad we don't have any full length novels for Starfinder at all. My favourite way to learn lore and get into a setting is reading the novels. DnD Forgotten Realms still seems to release a few a year. I have been reading my way through every Eberron book I can get my hands on but would love if more PF or any SF books existed.
The stories on the blog are great by the way, that is what is leaving me hungry for a full length novel. I am guessing the economics of paying authors and kindle publishing aren't there which is a shame.
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Another factor is that 20 years ago, your options for consuming content related to your hobby apart from actual gaming was pretty reading novels or playing video games. These days, RPG-adjacent board games, podcasts and game streaming are a thing and a big one at that. A Pathfinder novel won't get you new people to try the RPG out, a show such as Knights of Everflame? Very much yes.
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Going off the minimum rate that the Science Fiction Writers of America require for membership, $0.06 a word, and the standard of 250 words/page, a 300 page novel would require paying the author $4,500, before accounting for formatting, cover art, advertising, or book production. I know of a few ghostwriters that charge as low as $0.03 or $0.02, but the first advice I found when googling it was much higher, suggesting that the ghostwriter should be paid about $15,000 for a 300 page book. Now add the costs for the editors, graphic artists, and everything else. I can easily see the costs for a novel being over $10,000, but I can't say for sure, since I've never hired a ghostwriter.
Now, I'm a self-published author. That means I don't have the same breadth of audience, and my niche is rather small (High Fantasy Lesbian Romance), so I can't compare things quite the same, but... my most successful book grossed about $40,000 in three years. My least successful book has grossed about $6,000 in 18 months.
For me that's a good profit margin. My costs are low because I do most of the editing and formatting myself. I'd say my costs (with editing and covers) for a book are around $1,500/novel. But the costs for Paizo are likely very different.
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How can I say this tactfully? The market for game-based novels is not what it used to be. While this not my personal are of expertise, my sister who is a book-buyer for a major library system, says the genre has all but disappeared. Although I'm sure indie publishing continues.
Paizo loves Pathfinder and Starfinder fiction, as indicated by our commitment to free flash fiction on paizo.com. We continue to observe the market to seek the best path forward.
Really appreciate this insight, Aaron - the loss of the novels has been very disappointing to me. I don’t read electronic books, so the blogs (or whatever the online option is that people have mentioned) isn’t a meaningful substitute.
I’ll keep my fingers crossed something miraculous eventuates, but it’s good to hear the reality of the situation, rather than silence.
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Really appreciate this insight, Aaron - the loss of the novels has been very disappointing to me. I don’t read electronic books, so the blogs (or whatever the online option is that people have mentioned) isn’t a meaningful substitute.
I’ll keep my fingers crossed something miraculous eventuates, but it’s good to hear the reality of the situation, rather than silence.
I hear you. I'll happily read a novel on an e-reader (man I love being alive in this era... taking books into a bathtub/hot-tub/pool/beach without fear of damaging it is awesome) and I don't mind short-stories but flash/web-fiction just doesn't engage me.
Anyway, when we had peak Pathfinder, with novels every month or two, "the business model" didn't work out and a "different publishing arrangement" needed to be found. It's pretty clear to me that translated into "these don't make enough money to get published". That was then. Now demand is likely even lower.
It's a shame, because there were some really engaging stories and authors. But it's a truth.
<sad gif>
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I'd subscribe, just to put my voice in the pot.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Is it possible that there's an upside on margin if they were published as trade paperbacks rather than mass market? I know that's a trend I'm seeing in the book market more and more, especially for non-best sellers, since there's higher margins on trade paperbacks. Also, to spitball another option, could working with a smaller publisher make more sense? Might not get the same distribution, but could possibly have better economics. The downside to that is if the margin improves at the expense of total profit, it might just be too small to justify the time from Paizo.
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Is it possible that there's an upside on margin if they were published as trade paperbacks rather than mass market? I know that's a trend I'm seeing in the book market more and more, especially for non-best sellers, since there's higher margins on trade paperbacks. Also, to spitball another option, could working with a smaller publisher make more sense? Might not get the same distribution, but could possibly have better economics. The downside to that is if the margin improves at the expense of total profit, it might just be too small to justify the time from Paizo.
Or maybe just sell them through the webstore as special editions that only go to the printers when "x" amount are sold. These editions are larger and on better paper and include art plates. I used to have a couple of Stephen King's first Gunslinger books that were like that. I may still have them in storage somewhere.
To be honest, I'd rather buy books digitally since I only have a limited mount of library space so I have to use it wisely. I'll make space for a really well made special edition!
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Is it possible that there's an upside on margin if they were published as trade paperbacks rather than mass market?
I believe the last set of books printed, via the Tor partnership were trade. I can't - quickly - find them on my shelves as I recall they got filed somewhere other than the rest because they didn't fit properly. 1,000+ books and no time. Or I'm wrong.
Or maybe just sell them through the webstore as special editions that only go to the printers when "x" amount are sold.
I don't think the physical printing is the biggest hurdle. Pretty sure it's the per-word cost together with the different editing process. The more limited the run, the higher the price, the less the market. Selling one book at $5,000 wouldn't justify the line. They need mass exposure.
Is it possible that there's an upside on margin if they were published as trade paperbacks rather than mass market?I believe the last set of books printed, via the Tor partnership were trade.
Yes, the books published by Tor were trade, while the older ones published by Paizo were mass-market.
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My biggest disappointment is that there are several "orphaned" books that are 100% complete, edited and everything, but unpublished. They've already incurred the costs for writing them, I wish they would be published even if it's just ebook on the Paizo store.
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My biggest disappointment is that there are several "orphaned" books that are 100% complete, edited and everything, but unpublished. They've already incurred the costs for writing them, I wish they would be published even if it's just ebook on the Paizo store.
You know, with what's been going around, the last thing Paizo wants is needing to have this exact thread every time some distraught "I don't do files" Bubba rolls over to complain that there's no dead tree edition of the book. I'm sure you know the fanbase well enough to see that the "paper or bust" type is strongly represented.
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Yes, the books published by Tor were trade, while the older ones published by Paizo were mass-market.
Thanks for the reference.
Tangential topic, personally I loathe the inability of the publishing word to pick a standard and stick to it. I don't care which it is, but I hate how things look on my shelves when I'm forced to mix different sizes.
Heck... I've been keeping quiet on how one of the books of the first PF2 AP had the word "pathfinder" on the spine in a different colour than all the rest.
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My biggest disappointment is that there are several "orphaned" books that are 100% complete, edited and everything, but unpublished. They've already incurred the costs for writing them, I wish they would be published even if it's just ebook on the Paizo store.You know, with what's been going around, the last thing Paizo wants is needing to have this exact thread every time some distraught "I don't do files" Bubba rolls over to complain that there's no dead tree edition of the book. I'm sure you know the fanbase well enough to see that the "paper or bust" type is strongly represented.
Would internet complaining or people buying it less vs not buying at all really be worse thing? ._.
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Yes, the books published by Tor were trade, while the older ones published by Paizo were mass-market.Thanks for the reference.
Tangential topic, personally I loathe the inability of the publishing word to pick a standard and stick to it. I don't care which it is, but I hate how things look on my shelves when I'm forced to mix different sizes.
Heck... I've been keeping quiet on how one of the books of the first PF2 AP had the word "pathfinder" on the spine in a different colour than all the rest.
Bolded for emphasis. While I would vastly prefer they have stuck with the mass market size for the entire line, having the entire line be trade size at least would have looked nicer.
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Tangential topic, personally I loathe the inability of the publishing word to pick a standard and stick to it. I don't care which it is, but I hate how things look on my shelves when I'm forced to mix different sizes.
Heck... I've been keeping quiet on how one of the books of the first PF2 AP had the word "pathfinder" on the spine in a different colour than all the rest.
This shows you have an ordered mind and are a person of eminent sensibleness. :)
Heck... I've been keeping quiet on how one of the books of the first PF2 AP had the word "pathfinder" on the spine in a different colour than all the rest.
Two actually...
Heck... I've been keeping quiet on how one of the books of the first PF2 AP had the word "pathfinder" on the spine in a different colour than all the rest.Two actually...
You're right (of course). That's twice as annoying.
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You know, with what's been going around, the last thing Paizo wants is needing to have this exact thread every time some distraught "I don't do files" Bubba rolls over to complain that there's no dead tree edition of the book. I'm sure you know the fanbase well enough to see that the "paper or bust" type is strongly represented.
I suspect that if we do see an electronic release (boo!) it’ll be a clear sign they’ve given up on any hope of releasing novels as proper books.
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You know, with what's been going around, the last thing Paizo wants is needing to have this exact thread every time some distraught "I don't do files" Bubba rolls over to complain that there's no dead tree edition of the book. I'm sure you know the fanbase well enough to see that the "paper or bust" type is strongly represented.I suspect that if we do see an electronic release (boo!) it’ll be a clear sign they’ve given up on any hope of releasing novels as proper books.
If my choices are no Pathfinder or Starfinder fiction OR digital releases then I'll take my 1s and 0s and like them.
I tend to like my manuals and reference type material in dead tree form. I like my "read once" material in a digital form. I like my gaming material in both.
You know, with what's been going around, the last thing Paizo wants is needing to have this exact thread every time some distraught "I don't do files" Bubba rolls over to complain that there's no dead tree edition of the book. I'm sure you know the fanbase well enough to see that the "paper or bust" type is strongly represented.I suspect that if we do see an electronic release (boo!) it’ll be a clear sign they’ve given up on any hope of releasing novels as proper books.If my choices are no Pathfinder or Starfinder fiction OR digital releases then I'll take my 1s and 0s and like them.
I tend to like my manuals and reference type material in dead tree form. I like my "read once" material in a digital form. I like my gaming material in both.
I suspect there’s more people like you than me.
I've noticed some of the gaming books I've bought recently ( Kobold Guide to .....) were all printed by amazon on what I assume is by demand.
I liked the Pathfinder novels and am still reading through them. I would definitely buy more.
After reading the fiction James Jacobs wrote I'd love for him to publish some new 2E novels.
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I don't do digital books. I love to smell the paper of freshly arrived books! Seriously, ask my wife! She gets a good laugh every time I open a Paizo box and smell the books before looking at them. hehe. So, yeah, digital books isn't for me and I'm quite aware that it's dying breed, sadly.
Don't get me wrong, save the trees, space at home and in landfills, and etc. But for those of us caught in-between the shifting trends don't understand the digital folks and the vice versa. Will always pick a book over an iPad or Kindle. I don't even own a Kindle. The only reason I own an iPad is because it controls my spinal cord stimulator, which doesn't work right now. hehe. Battery died before everything went crazy....ugh, how I miss elective surgeries atm!
Anyways, I'll end my rant. Thanks for all the feedback all. Sorry that it looks so bleak for the novels. Take care!
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I thought the Pathfinder Tales novels were all very good (with the exception of the Greenwood one) and long for their return myself.
I'm not into Starfinder or Pathfinder 2e so have stopped buying products, but novels would keep me in the Paizo-buying business.
From what I can see with the trend from print to digital getting products especially older ones in print unless very popular is no longer going to be as easy or even a choice.
For example if I want to get David Drake Lord of the Isles series I would need to purchase many of the pocket editions either used or 2-3 times the amount brand new. On Amazon.ca the first in the series in brand new condition ranges from 18.58-139$. Buying it used is more affordable yet currently it ranges from 4.65- 33$. Or I can buy books 1-6 in E-book format in one download for 45$. Which imo is still cheaper.
I am not saying give up on print books yet the days of publishers XYZ keeping an author series even a modestly successful one in print for 5-10 years is simply not going to happen anymore. Even then they need to be successful properties like Star Wars, Star Trek, Dune, Foundation and so on.
So my advice buy all an author series of books in print in one sitting or expect to either have to spend lots more money to get it in print or prepare to go E-Book.
I like print yet I also can't demand that Paizo or another publisher keep something in print even if they lose money because I like print format and only print format. E-Book allows publishers to save printing, shipping, distribution and storage costs. Not to mention unless one has a big enough house or apartment one needs space to store all the print books. Yes E-books can be corrupted and destroyed yet so can print.
Don't get me started on rpg publishers who try to sell PDF as the same price as print which is a topic for another time.