
EldonGuyre |
Scarheart is a killer - the top assassin in my world. I came up with the concept a long time ago.
He has some problems, though. He hates magic (and arcane casters), and he refuses to use it. (this includes divine magic)
He has a deathwish, and refuses to wear armor. The x-shaped scar over his heart is often visible when he isn't hiding it.
I have him slated as a martial class 19/9 mythic.
He'll start like all my NPCs, with the elite array, and add no more than half of his mythic stat bonuses to any one stat.
How deadly can you make him? How durable?
(right now, I'm making him a Slayer/Trickster)

Ryze Kuja |

High level Slayers are deadly but have a fatal flaw. Their Will Save absolutely sucks. One Heightened (or Persistent) Save or Die spell and they're toast.
If he truly hates magic, I would think he'd have Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, and Mythic Improved Iron Will, as well as Slippery Mind Adv Rogue Talent.

EldonGuyre |
Could he make his own magic weapons? Crafting options would allow this and if it comes.from him would he trust it less as magic?
No, he's actually pretty irrational in this regard.
Incidentally, he used a bastard sword and throwing daggers when I first thought him up, but almost any non-magical weapon would be feasible for him.
I have no problem considering special metals, and figure the sword might well be adamantine by now.

EldonGuyre |
High level Slayers are deadly but have a fatal flaw. Their Will Save absolutely sucks. One Heightened (or Persistent) Save or Die spell and they're toast.
If he truly hates magic, I would think he'd have Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, and Mythic Improved Iron Will, as well as Slippery Mind Adv Rogue Talent.
Agreed. He regularly takes hits on casters...he can't pass them up.

Ryze Kuja |

Ryze Kuja wrote:Agreed. He regularly takes hits on casters...he can't pass them up.High level Slayers are deadly but have a fatal flaw. Their Will Save absolutely sucks. One Heightened (or Persistent) Save or Die spell and they're toast.
If he truly hates magic, I would think he'd have Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, and Mythic Improved Iron Will, as well as Slippery Mind Adv Rogue Talent.
Something that he wears that is enchanted with Anti-Magic Field might be in order too. Unless he hates magic so much that he would even refuse to use Anti-magic fields :P

EldonGuyre |
EldonGuyre wrote:Something that he wears that is enchanted with Anti-Magic Field might be in order too. Unless he hates magic so much that he would even refuse to use Anti-magic fields :PRyze Kuja wrote:Agreed. He regularly takes hits on casters...he can't pass them up.High level Slayers are deadly but have a fatal flaw. Their Will Save absolutely sucks. One Heightened (or Persistent) Save or Die spell and they're toast.
If he truly hates magic, I would think he'd have Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, and Mythic Improved Iron Will, as well as Slippery Mind Adv Rogue Talent.
Yeah, that would be magic, too.

Shorticus |
Honestly, then, he won't be super effective. No armor; no magical items; no way to counter magic; poor will saves. This guy will have lots of HD and some cool mythic abilities, but I'm hardly getting an 'ultimate assassin' vibe from that.
A good assassin has a ton of tools at their disposal, and in Pathfinder that means lots of little magical doodads. You need:
- a way to kill a target (easy)
- preferably a way to make it so the target can't be brought back from the dead (not so easy, though perhaps he could take the body, burn it to ash, then spread the ashes on a windy day)
- ways to go unseen / invisible
- ways to reach get into difficult-to-reach places (Mythic can help here)
- ways to avoid whatever magical traps your enemies have in place
- preferably a way to block divination so you don't get revenge hunted by your target's family
- reliable get-out-of-danger-free cards (teleport, freedom of movement, +movement speed stuff... Mounts can serve as getaway "vehicles" too)
- and good ways to gather information about whatever place you're infiltrating to do the assassination
And unfortunately, a character that refuses to use any magic in Pathfinder will be hard pressed to do all of the above unless his enemies are well below him in power.
Now, Mythic helps a bit here. You can get flight/airwalk with Pilgrim of the Sky, and you can get abilities that increase your movement speed. You can get SLAs by being a sort of demigod, and you can get the ability to move and attack at once. Still, Mythic doesn't solve the guy's weak will saves, nor does it provide him ALL the utility he'll want.
So, with that said, let's talk about durability:
His saves are his weak point, especially Will. If he's a Dwarf, that would help a little, especially with the Steel Soul feat. Bonus points if he has Iron Will / Improved Iron Will and the Mythic version of Iron Will. You could also try a reroll-oriented build with Mythic Strong Comeback; that's something I've seen used to good effect.
On damage:
Crit builds. Mythic allows you to make some absolutely insane crit builds. I don't think I need to explain further on that note. Get an 18-20 weapon or the 19-20 x3 Falcata, perhaps two of them (because you can move and flurry easily in Mythic), then fish out as many crits as you possibly can. You can and will be highly effective with that.
Alternatively, if you can reliably get a way to Coup de Grace people, get a x4 crit weapon and then bolster it to its maximum potential power. With Mythic you can increase its critical damage, and you can get Mythic Power Attack to hit even harder, and... before you know it, you'll have like a truly monstrous attack that auto-crits when you Coup de Grace, and nothing will survive that.
Even if you don't use magical weapons, consider getting the Legendary Weapon ability from Mythic. It's tied to your character, bound to him. Maybe that would make it more feasible?

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Wouldn't a continuous item of Anti-magic Field turn itself off? I know I had a discussion a few years back with a summoned Movanic Deva casting it and succeeding on the CL check against itself since it was a summoned creature existing in the area the spell is cast. Causing itself to wink away, and since it is no longer there, the field isn't either, causing it to come back, which turns on the field again causing it to wink away... basically Schrödinger's Deva.
Anyway, something like Untouchable Bloodrager might work too since it trades out spellcasting for SR. Maybe throw on Primalist for Superstition/Eater of Magic/moar damage reduction/etc. It would still get a bloodline, so it could do some magic adjacent things, but that depends on how you want him to think about spell-like abilities. Arcane would be good thematically (because it has anti-caster aspects) but does have some Spell-likes. Most bloodlines are entirely SU and EX though. Celestial doesn't fit to well thematically, but it grants resistances, permanent flight, immunities, etc. Black-Blood, Inferal, Kyton (gets you some armor/DR), Undead (1/day incorporeal) would all be good choices too.
Find a way to get regeneration, and then take To the Death mythic ability (Champion/Guardian) and just laugh at HP damage(unless its nonlethal, then get Flagellant).

EldonGuyre |
Ok, I've seen everybody's comments about how hard it is to make him work without magic. I get it.
Let's try this, then - the scar came from something elder things did to him. He has no memory of it. Originally,the idea was that it just started him into mythic - but what if something - undetectable - was buried in his chest, granting him some bonuses? They would have to be subtle, things he would count as skill (or perhaps luck).
What would it take?

Slim Jim |

Honestly, then, he won't be super effective. No armor; no magical items; no way to counter magic; poor will saves. This guy will have lots of HD and some cool mythic abilities, but I'm hardly getting an 'ultimate assassin' vibe from that.The vibe I'm getting is chaotic-"neutral" Drizzit.
He hates magic, and he refuses to use it.
I can't speak from personal experience, but I suspect that "top assassins" are coldly rational, and use the very best tools available as ruthlessly and efficiently as possible, because if they didn't, they'd probably already be dead at the hands of someone else who did.
This...roleplaying limitation is just a self-gimp.
Even the muggles in the Harry Potter universe use magical gear when they can.
Honestly, then, he won't be super effective. No armor; no magical items; no way to counter magic; poor will saves.
Flailing against DR/magic, etc.

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Even Wizard Slayers in the earlier editions of DnD were allowed a couple of magical items, so fast forward to now, no magical item at all wouldn't make sense thematically and would make a disservice to the concept. On the contrary, assassins use whatever they have in hand to reach their goals, and magical items are no exception. Trying to get around it by saying it comes from an unknown source also amounts to asking to start with higher abilities than other characters, this is to the GM's discretion.
There's also considering what the other players around the table would think about it ... saying that some would be unimpressed isn't an exaggeration. There's how someone looks at the idea, and there's how it turns out in effect.
Some are pointing at poor will-saves, I would circle it in red several times.

EldonGuyre |
Ok, so you guys just decided to ignore my recent post, and you're used to campaigns that simply drip magic items. You're used to campaigns where high-level characters are simply commonplace.
That's not the sort of game I run.
In my gameworld, one of the most feared and respected men is all of 16th level,a fighter. A druid that was considered *the* bastion against chaos was 17th.
19th level is all but unheard of.
Right now, I'm running my third campaign in that world after wrapping up the first two in a bit over four years. The first one actually took the party to 20th level (and 8th tier mythic). Yes, PCs are now the most powerful people in the world.
That's the kind of world I run.
So you tell me it can't be done - fine, I accepted that and offered an alternative. Did anybody even look at it?

Mysterious Stranger |

Would he consider a monks Ki abilities magic? If he is ok with using those monk has a lot of defenses vs magic. All good saves and spell resistance is going to make him very effective vs any kind of caster especially an arcane caster. If magic items are rare in your world he will not have as much problems due to the bar being lower. If magic items are more common use the auto bonus progression rules to keep him closer to normal.
If you are using mythic rules don’t take the tricksters path. Champion or Guardian would be better choices. To survive he needs to do one of two things take out the opposition before they can act or to be able to survive the opponents attacks long enough to kill them. Champion would be better for the first choice, while Guardian works better for the later.

EldonGuyre |
Would he consider a monks Ki abilities magic? If he is ok with using those monk has a lot of defenses vs magic. All good saves and spell resistance is going to make him very effective vs any kind of caster especially an arcane caster. If magic items are rare in your world he will not have as much problems due to the bar being lower. If magic items are more common use the auto bonus progression rules to keep him closer to normal.
If you are using mythic rules don’t take the tricksters path. Champion or Guardian would be better choices. To survive he needs to do one of two things take out the opposition before they can act or to be able to survive the opponents attacks long enough to kill them. Champion would be better for the first choice, while Guardian works better for the later.
No, Ki wouldn't be magic. Actually, I was looking at maybe going Champion, or even dual path, and had thought about Guardian, to make up for his weaknesses.

zza ni |

welp if it help. i made back then a thread of a slayer10\rogue2 with evasion, 50% auto-save on will checks and 50% concealment almost constant (non magical\darkens\fog\sight based it's from being fast so true sight and such won't help against).
one attack a round with 12d6 damage before added stuff. and a LOT of decoys around (he did use a ring of decoy for more decoys. but not have too.
take a look might work if you twick it a bit. the only semi magical things in this build is the Ankou's Shadows which can be dropped if you don't like them and the ring of decoy. it still work fine without the decoy was just for extra miss attacks and confusions. (also the ability to form a one man conga-line of about 15 people)

Quixote |

The vow of poverty forbade a character from ever owning anything more than one set of clothes, a day's worth of food and a walking stick.
It was also the most broken feat ever made. It was a feat that gave you static bonuses to AC, saves, ability scores, attacks, skills. A feat that gave you more feats.
If you allowed him some basic equipment and toned the "vow" way down, I bet you could get somewhere close.
Off the cuff, I'd give him +4/+6/+6/+2/+4/+2 to ability scores, a +5 to all saves, +15 AC, any weapon in his have is treated as...I dunno. +3 keen wounding bane (spellcaster) speed and smacks them with Greater Dispel Magic on a crit, doesn't need to sleep, constant Endure Elements and Mind Blank, resistance 20 to all energy types, SR-whatever. All due to whatever it is that happened to him.
I will say that, thematically, he strikes me more as a child of destiny than an actual killer-for-hire, if only because such a consuming, irrational hatred doesn't seem in line with a guy who commits murder for cash. The money is just an excuse; this guy's on some kind of sick crusade.

Mysterious Stranger |

The vow of poverty forbade a character from ever owning anything more than one set of clothes, a day's worth of food and a walking stick.
It was also the most broken feat ever made. It was a feat that gave you static bonuses to AC, saves, ability scores, attacks, skills. A feat that gave you more feats.If you allowed him some basic equipment and toned the "vow" way down, I bet you could get somewhere close.
Off the cuff, I'd give him +4/+6/+6/+2/+4/+2 to ability scores, a +5 to all saves, +15 AC, any weapon in his have is treated as...I dunno. +3 keen wounding bane (spellcaster) speed and smacks them with Greater Dispel Magic on a crit, doesn't need to sleep, constant Endure Elements and Mind Blank, resistance 20 to all energy types, SR-whatever. All due to whatever it is that happened to him.
I will say that, thematically, he strikes me more as a child of destiny than an actual killer-for-hire, if only because such a consuming, irrational hatred doesn't seem in line with a guy who commits murder for cash. The money is just an excuse; this guy's on some kind of sick crusade.
You are thinking of the vow of poverty from the 3.5 book of exalted deeds. Vow of poverty in Pathfinder is an option for monks not a broken feat. Like other Pathfinder vows all it does is to increase the amount of Ki that a monk gains. In the case of vow of poverty they gain 1 extra point of Ki per level. They also can have a single item of significant value.

Quixote |

Vow of poverty in Pathfinder...
I didn't realize it was a thing at all in Pathfinder. Doesn't surprise me, I guess.
But yes, I was referring to the one from the Book of Exalted Deeds (see: past tense). And regardless of where it comes from, I would still consider it a valid option for a character that goes so far outside the normal range of expectations like this.
Mysterious Stranger |

Pathfinder already has an optional rule for auto bonus progression that would work for this character. It is designed to eliminate the need for the big six magic items by automatically giving the characters appropriate bonuses based on their level. When used a character get half the normal suggested wealth because they no longer need to buy as many magic items. This allows characters to take interesting magic items instead of needing to buy the standard rings, cloaks, belts etc.. This is what I suggested in my earlier post.

Quixote |

Pathfinder already has an optional rule for auto bonus progression that would work for this character.
That's an interesting idea, only using the alternate rule on one character. Not sure how that would play out, but it's not a bad place to look.
It is designed to eliminate the need for the big six magic items by automatically giving the characters appropriate bonuses based on their level. When used a character get half the normal suggested wealth because they no longer need to buy as many magic items. This allows characters to take interesting magic items instead of needing to buy the standard rings, cloaks, belts etc.. This is what I suggested in my earlier post.
I'm aware of what it does, though I've never used it myself.
The whole point of it though--"allowing characters to take interesting magic items"--isn't quite touching on the heart of the matter with this character. You'd still be left with a character that doesn't use half their wealth on any magic items, interesting or otherwise, so they'd still be at a pretty significant disadvantage.Dial up the automatic bonus progression, revamp the old vow of poverty, it all comes down to the same concept: give this dude the benefits of magic items without giving him actual magic items.

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The vow of poverty forbade a character from ever owning anything more than one set of clothes, a day's worth of food and a walking stick.
It was also the most broken feat ever made. It was a feat that gave you static bonuses to AC, saves, ability scores, attacks, skills. A feat that gave you more feats.