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I've been playing around with the rogue talents and options to design a character and one guide was talking about the familiar talent and what archeyptes were good. They had figment as red not adding anything but I noticed this combination and I was wondering would it work or did I miss a rule that would invalidate it.
Step 1: Rogue.
Step 2-4: Take talent minor magic, major magic, familiar.
Step 5: Take figment archetype.
Step 6: Take evolutions: Extra Feat, Reach.
Step 7: Take Blades above and Below Feat for Rogue and Familiar.
This should unless I'm missing something give you a rogue who threatens adjacent 5' squares and a tiny familiar who can share the rogues square and has a natural weapon with reach allowing it to also threaten adjacent 5' squares. As long as the rogue matches the targets size with the blades above and below positioning doesn't matter the rogue and their (admitedly easily killed familiar) are now flanking any adjacent target allowing sneak attacks and if the familiar dies they come back the next day (Unfortunately on 1 HP that can't be increased unless you find a friendly summoner). Plus you get the amusing image of a tiny fox/cat/other having its muzzzle stretch out from the rogues shoulder/clothes to nip the target.
Weird. I wouldn’t think of figment as red tier, though it wouldn’t be highest tier.
Alternatively, you could achieve about the same thing with any familiar and a 2 level dip of eldritch guardian. If the familiar doesn’t have threatening reach then give it the mauler archetype.
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Weird. I wouldn’t think of figment as red tier, though it wouldn’t be highest tier.
Alternatively, you could achieve about the same thing with any familiar and a 2 level dip of eldritch guardian. If the familiar doesn’t have threatening reach then give it the mauler archetype.
Yes but then you have to dip into eldritch guardian.
Mauler would work but the familiar is harder to replace if killed. You need to wait a week, spend money and they'll be a new familiar not your old friend. Its a shame figment conflicts with practically every other archetype. The amusment value doubles when they try to stab the fox with the extendable muzzle only to have it change into a battleform and become more dangerous. Though on a personal level I don't like the "can't speak" restriction" and would prefer to go with valet myself.
Figment is the only choice if you're going to use it for flanking on a regular basis.
That's not the only way to get a familiar as a rogue BTW. Feats/feat chains that work include skill focus - eldritch heritage (arcane), or wasp familiar, or hand's autonomy - possessed hand - hand's detachment (that one's not ideal for TWF unless you have a really odd race), or iron will - familiar bond - improved familiar bond.
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True but most of the other ones I've seen require a heavy investment and/or come with severe limits. This one gets you a lvl 0 at will e.g. detect magic for magic traps and a lvl 1 x times a day e.g. vanish for quick non-ring invisibility for a few rounds then the familiar. You can toss an extra 1 feat into that if you want an improved familiar but otherwise its a lot more affordable means of getting one for a rogue. Toss in figment for the flanking and sage for an easy + 20 to all knowledge checks and quite a few other skills being good. It's a nice suppliment to the rogue.
Severe limits? Only the hand one of those I listed (OK, there are others unmentioned with severe limits like carnivalist.) And all of those come online earlier than major rogue talents, about 3rd or 5th rather than 10th level. Zero/first level spells are cheap to obtain via consumables like scrolls, potions or wands; after 6th level or so minor/major magic looks like a poor bargain for what is essentially two feats.
I usually figure if you're not being offered at least 5 000 gp per feat you should turn the offer down, and that would be a lot of wands.
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Severe limits? Only the hand one of those I listed (OK, there are others unmentioned with severe limits like carnivalist.) And all of those come online earlier than major rogue talents, about 3rd or 5th rather than 10th level. Zero/first level spells are cheap to obtain via consumables like scrolls, potions or wands; after 6th level or so minor/major magic looks like a poor bargain for what is essentially two feats.
I usually figure if you're not being offered at least 5 000 gp per feat you should turn the offer down, and that would be a lot of wands.
Familiar bond doesn't give you most of the abilities that come with a fammiliar so your looking at a minimum of 3 feats (Iron Will, Familiar Bond, Improved Familiiar Bond) and then improved familiar if you want that. Iron wills useful, familiar bond gives you a familiar lacking most of its abilities (thus unable to take arcehtypes), I admit I didn't realized improved bond existed before your post but still your looking at 3 feats vs 3 talents and I need feats more than talents for two weapon fighting.
Eldritch Heritage is better at 2 feats (skill focus, Eldritch Heritage) and does trigger at lvl 3ish. However your still dealing with feats being spent and for my build as I said I need those. Could work well for a different build though.
Hand's Detachment again 3 feats.
Wasp familiar limits you to was and possibly a specific diety.
It probably depends on your build choices for me I'd rather spend 3 talents vs 2+ feats in this build. Magic items are cheap but having an at will invisbility that can't be taken off you even if its just for a few rounds can be useful for a rogue. No magic rings, wands, potions attending a formal party in formal attire vanish and slip past the guards, in a jail vanish and then use the stalker hide in plain sight so they think you've escaped. Situational but I can see uses. Admitedly I would prefer just taking familiar but its usually got restrictions or requires investment.
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Hmm I forgot half-elf gives you skill focus as a bonus feat that'd let you skip minor/major and familiiar gaining 3 deeds back one of which can be a feat thus coming out at a net gain of 2 talents.
I pulled a similar trick (tiny familiar in its master's space for combat reasons) with an Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Fighter with a level dip in UMonk. Though it was mostly to (ab)use Intrepid Rescuer by pretending to be a merfolk and always prone(monkey style) with his protector squirrel also prone.
So, why do you need Figment? Is that just to get it back when it dies because it has 1/4 of your hp? I like Protector better for that, because you can split damage.
Actually its because you can take the 2 evolution point bonus feat giving the familiar blades above and below which then allows the rogue to flank from anywhere by using themselves and their familiar. If your not a rogue and worried about flanking figment's less use there are fun abilities but since you only gain 3 evolutions you miss out on the best abilities. Still free flanking isn't bad especially as the familiar only needs to threaten into the square so they can still remain unlikely to be noticed by not attacking. There may be other ways to give a familiar feats but this is an easy on and since its still tiny and hiding in its rogues square its less likely to be attacked/killed than say a mauler archetype.
You also can instead of using them to flank take the evolution to give a bonus to skills boosting its sage abilities even further. Alternatively you can play with other evolutions like tremorsense so it'll notice any invisble creatures aproaching along the ground within 30' give it the ability to spin a web, make its claws/bite count as magic/aligned or poisonous.
shouldn't work.
you taking a feat for the familiar with the extra feat evolution which is only for twinned eidolon (a summoner class ability).
it is basically uniqe a sort of base form (that say it is just like the character so no big\small combo anyway). and also the figment is restricted from evolution that have base form restrictions.
there are ways to give familiars feats (like a witch's archtype)
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shouldn't work.
you taking a feat for the familiar with the extra feat evolution which is only for twinned eidolon (a summoner class ability).
it is basically uniqe a sort of base form (that say it is just like the character so no big\small combo anyway). and also the figment is restricted from evolution that have base form restrictions.there are ways to give familiars feats (like a witch's archtype)
Fliddle Rasha Figrmagentla
Sigh so it does require twinned Eidolon that little detail was ommited in the SRD. Wont stop me taking figment for the other fun reasons but I suspect there goes the flanking unless I can convince a DM to allow it. Hmmm Figment does say . . .
Manifest Dreams (Su): At 3rd level, a figment is shaped by its master’s dreams. Each time the master awakens from a full night’s rest, he can apply to the figment 1 evolution point’s worth of eidolon evolutions that don’t have a base form requirement. At 7th level, he can apply 2 points’ worth of eidolon evolutions; at 13th level, he can apply 3 points’ worth of eidolon evolutions.
This replaces deliver touch spells, speak with animals of its kind, and scry on familiar.
Twinned EIdolon is not a base form requirement its a class requirement so maybe I can make a case it overrules that rule and allows it . ..
one level of this witch let you give your familiar a feat when ever you should be taking one instead of keeping to for yourself.
Twinned EIdolon is not a base form requirement its a class requirement so maybe I can make a case it overrules that rule and allows it . ..
Twinned Eidolon does impose a base form requirement however, it must be bipedal.
one level of this witch let you give your familiar a feat when ever you should be taking one instead of keeping to for yourself.
Witch familiars can’t be figments. No familiar that grants spells can be a figment.
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Either way I will fight for the interpreation that while Twinned Eidolon has a biped requirement the extra feat does NOT have a pre-requisite of a base form as it refers to class instead. I'm happy with this concept and I want to keep it. Besides its not as if this is broken there's plenty of easier ways to get flanking for a rogue.
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Either way I will fight for the interpreation that while Twinned Eidolon has a biped requirement the extra feat does NOT have a pre-requisite of a base form as it refers to class instead. I'm happy with this concept and I want to keep it. Besides its not as if this is broken there's plenty of easier ways to get flanking for a rogue.No. Twinned eidolon is a subtype.
Extra Feat (Ex) (Legacy of the First World pg. 19): The eidolon gains an extra feat. It must meet the prerequisites of the feat. Requirements: Twinned eidolon.
An unchained summoner’s eidolon is instead restricted to the twinned eidolon subtype.
The class would be twinned summoner. The base is either bipedal or twinned summoner subtype depending on u chained or not.
It is not the class. That's something else
My point is that its NOT a base form requirement. The specific figment ability is you can take any evolution that doesn't have a base form pre-requisite. Twinned Eidolon as you said is a subtype and thus the feat is fair game. Yes Twinned Eidolon has to be a biped but that's not what the evolution is referring to. The evolution say's you need twinned eidolon not biped to take it and the figment ability specifically states you can take any evolution that does not have a base form pre-requisite. So it overrules the twinned eidolon requirement in this evolutions case.
Evolutions list pre-requisites elsewhere that contain both a subtype and a base form as the pre-requisite as well as ones that only have subtypes or only base forms. Thus they are clearly different things for the purposes of the evolution as makes sense since most subtypes can be different base forms. The evolution was RAI I suspect meant to be only for twinned summoners not general ones but as this is a rogue taking a familiar who's archetype is figment your already well out of the general summoner rules.
Figments can take extra feat (Subtype), blindsense (summoner level), wing buffet (requires another evolution first) as valid choices (there is no "provided you meet the pre-requisites like other abilities do). Whereas things like Constrict (base form + evolution), mount (Subtype + base form) or pounce (base form + summoner level) are not. Weirdly there don't seem to be many feats like trample (base form) that aren't base form + something else. Even if your familiar is a cat they can't take the pounce evoultion because they are not a base type like biped or quadraped even if they are a quadraped.
However as I said the figment ability specifies evolutions that require a base form not a subtype thus you can use it for extra feat.
im sorry but the twinned in extra feat is not only a requirement it is also a restriction.
would you say a level 3 master can take an evolution that a level 16 summoner is needed for? of course not.
while the figment has the EXTRA restriction of not being able to take any evolution that is form based, it is still under the normal restrictions of any other eidolon.
such as it has to have limbs to take claws. a head to take bite and the class ability of twinned to take extra feats!!!
the fact your restricted from taking base form required evolution, doesn't make you automatically free from other requirements of the evolution. it doesn't say that the evolution only has to not have base form requirement. it say that base form requirement are not possible. that is added to normal requirements not make the rest exempt.
order goes like this:
figment - at level 3 can take eidolon evolutions, pending normal evolution - as long as they are not also specific to base form.
the base form thingy is added to the normal things you check when you pick an evolution. not replace.
"... he can apply to the figment 1 evolution point’s worth of eidolon evolutions that don’t have a base form requirement.."
if it said 'ANY 1 evolution..." then you would b right.
just saying evolution normally mean you still abid the normal evolution rules. like no twined = no extra feat
look at it this way. why would a restricted ability that work like a lesser eidolon evolution let you take things a normal eidolon can't take?
Zza ni's right. You can't select options which are only allowed by some archetype when you gain access to another classes powers, unless you have an explicit allowance to do so. q.v. Sorcerer bloodlines, wildblooded and eldritch heritage. Your GM may well decide to allow it anyway if you ask nicely but there's no arguing that RAW is on your side here.
Zza ni's right. You can't select options which are only allowed by some archetype when you gain access to another classes powers, unless you have an explicit allowance to do so. q.v. Sorcerer bloodlines, wildblooded and eldritch heritage. Your GM may well decide to allow it anyway if you ask nicely but there's no arguing that RAW is on your side here.
nop even raw is not on his side.
the ' that don’t have a base form requirement' is an added restriction not replacement of requirements for the evolution. same as 'proficiency in a shield' for a feat doesn't make it ok for you to be using the feat when your dead, just because you pass the shield proficiency required...as i said it doesn't say 'any 1 evolution except those with base form requirement'. as it is it direct you to evolution which has it's own sub rules and add that in them you can't pick one that require a base form. beside that the figment must abide all other eidolon rules. needing limbs for claws. limited number of attacks per round (yes it's also in the evolution class ability) etc
the fact the figment has a class specific restriction when picking an evolution doesn't make all the other restrictions on evolution go away.
-the rules are very clear when one doesn't need to have any requirements and say so when needed (like a monk taking bonus feats etc). here it doesn't say so, so it isn't allowed to skip other requirements
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Except if you apply that argument you rule out most evolutions since they specify level, subtype, etc. The wording is 1 point of evolutions that don't have a base form requirement. No comma, no mention of other requirements e.g.
Combat Trick
Benefit(s): You can use any equipment trick relating to the chosen item as long as you meet the trick’s prerequisites. If the item would normally be considered an improvised weapon, you can treat it as either a normal weapon or an improvised weapon, depending on which is more beneficial for you.
or
Superior Sniper (Magic Tactics Toolbox pg. 27): A rogue who selects this talent gains Expert Sniper (Dirty Tactics Toolbox 10) as a bonus feat. If she already has this feat, she can instead select any feat that lists Expert Sniper as a prerequisite, as long as she meets the feat’s prerequisites.
Other ones as you can see specify AS LONG AS YOU MEET THE PREREQUISITES. Figment just say's you can take X points of evoultion AS LONG AS IT DOESN"T HAVE A BASE FORM REQUIREMENT. No mention of needing to meet other prerequisties e.g. a kyton subtype.
Except if you apply that argument you rule out most evolutions since they specify level, subtype, etc.
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im sorry if the uber ability seem to be more limited then what you hope it to be.
do i really need to list all the evolutions you can take?also level requirements are ok as it has been cleared by a dev waaay back that class ability that act like other class abilities use the class level of the proxy to find the limit as if they are the source. (back in the 'walk like a duck' thread)
on that note an example.
copy pasting from the evolutions page in archive of nethys starting with
1 point:
" [PFS Legal] Basic Magic (Sp) (Ultimate Magic pg. 76): An eidolon learns to cast a basic spell as a spell-like ability. Select one spell from the following list: acid splash, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, light, mage hand, ray of frost, stabilize, or touch of fatigue. This spell can be cast once per day as a spell-like ability. At 4th level, this spell can be cast three times per day by spending 2 additional evolution points. The caster level for this evolution is equal to the eidolon's Hit Dice. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the eidolon's Charisma modifier. The eidolon must have a Charisma score of at least 10 to take this evolution. This evolution can be selected more than once. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a new spell.
[PFS Legal] Bite (Ex) (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 60): An eidolon's maw is full of razor-sharp teeth, giving it a bite attack. This attack is a primary attack. The bite deals 1d6 points of damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge). If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite.
Bleed (Ex) (Champions of Corruption pg. 27): An eidolon gains the ability to inflict bleeding wounds. Select one type of attack. Attacks of that type deal 1d6 points of bleed damage. This evolution can be selected more than once. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different attack. The bleed effect doesn’t stack.
[PFS Legal] Claws (Ex) (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 60): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
[PFS Legal] Climb (Ex) (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 60): An eidolon becomes a skilled climber, gaining a climb speed equal to its base speed. This evolution can be selected more than once. Each additional time it is selected, increase the eidolon's climb speed by 20 feet.
[PFS Legal] Gills (Ex) (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 60): An eidolon has gills and can breathe underwater indefinitely.
[PFS Legal] Hooves (Ex) (Ultimate Magic pg. 77): An eidolon has a pair of sharp hooves at the end of its limbs, giving it two hoof attacks. These attacks are secondary attacks. The hooves deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws evolution from its base form with these hoof attacks (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of limbs evolutions.
[PFS Legal] Improved Damage (Ex) (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 60): One of the eidolon's natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.
[PFS Legal] Improved Natural Armor (Ex) (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 60): An eidolon's hide grows thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus to its natural armor. This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses.
[PFS Legal] Low-Light Vision (Ex) (Ultimate Magic pg. 77): An eidolon gains low-light vision, enabling it to see twice as far as a human in conditions of dim light.
[PFS Legal] Magic Attacks (Su) (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 60): An eidolon is infused with magic, allowing it to treat all of its natural attacks as if they were magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. If the summoner is 10th level or higher, all of the eidolon's weapons are treated as the alignment of the eidolon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."
i have to go past all this to find the 1st evolution that need a base form - 'mount'
so it's not like your out of options...
you will also note that in the examples that you yourself provided it does say 'any'..
unlike with the figment abilities
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Combat Trick
Benefit(s): You can use any equipment trick relating to the chosen item as long as you meet the trick’s prerequisites. If the item would normally be considered an improvised weapon, you can treat it as either a normal weapon or an improvised weapon, depending on which is more beneficial for you.or
Superior Sniper (Magic Tactics Toolbox pg. 27): A rogue who selects this talent gains Expert Sniper (Dirty Tactics Toolbox 10) as a bonus feat. If she already has this feat, she can instead select any feat that lists Expert Sniper as a prerequisite, as long as she meets the feat’s prerequisites.
Other ones as you can see specify AS LONG AS YOU MEET THE PREREQUISITES. Figment just say's you can take X points of evoultion AS LONG AS IT DOESN"T HAVE A BASE FORM REQUIREMENT. No mention of needing to meet other prerequisties e.g. a kyton subtype.
only proving my point even more. because it did say any they had to clear up what other requirements also are needed. when any is not said you need to abide to everything else is the same as the linked ability\effect etc.
1. saying 'any' without any limit = mean no limit.
2. saying 'any' with limit = mean any(as 1 but..), as long as only this limit is taken care of. (like your examples)
3. not saying 'any' = mean you have to abide the normal rules. (like the figment)
eample:
1 : you can eat anything = apples, oranges, cakes, cookies etc
2 : you can eat anything red - can be red apples, red cherries ,red cookies etc
3 : you can eat a red fruit = it has to be red(base form), but it also has to be a fruit(evolution rules) - no red cake or cookies!
"... he can apply to the figment 1 evolution point’s worth of eidolon evolutions(fruit) that don’t have a base form requirement(red).."
the fact extra feat evolution is red. doesn't make it a fruit - or are you saying a snake figment familiar can take the claws evolution off the bat with no limbs just because it doesn't have a base form limit?
If you're just looking to get a flanking partner you can always just pick one of the small sized familiars as they naturally threaten the area around them (no reach required). I would recommend the Peafowl. Not only is it a small familiar but it even has limited flight(40ft) making it easier for it to get into a flanking position.
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I'd second the recommendation for a flying (s/b able to flank more often than Blades Above and Below) small (no need for reach) familiar... or an animal companion. While you can't make a 'figment' animal companion, they tend to be much more durable and you can always get a new one by spending a day. Thus, Animal Ally and Pack Flanking can give a similar result w/o dipping.
i too am having fun reading your ideas.
btw. do notice that familiar as a rogue talent is an advanced talent. only available after level 10.
and if you can get improved familier. go for aether elemental.
it's small(so has 5 ft reach)flying, invisible (partly?!?) and count the master's total hd for it's abilities dc\max throw size etc.
Just a thought my favorite way to get a familiar on a non standard way is by VMC. VMC Magus is particularly good for more martially oriented characters. There are a lot of very usable magus arcana and even spellstrike can be utilized on many characters.