Any advice on this? Got interested after noticing the following.
Quote: Martial Performance (Ex): The bard chooses one weapon belonging to a fighter weapon group that is associated with a Perform skill he has selected with versatile performance (see below). He gains proficiency with this weapon. If the bard is already proficient with this weapon or later becomes proficient with it, he gains Weapon Focus with that weapon as a bonus feat instead. In addition, the bard’s effective fighter level is equal to 1/2 his bard level for the purpose of qualifying for feats that specifically select weapons from those Perform skills’ associated fighter weapon groups. The types of Perform skills and their associated fighter weapon groups are: Act (close, double), Comedy (flails, thrown), Dance (monk, spears), Keyboard Instruments (hammers, siege engines), Oratory (heavy blades, light blades), Percussion (close, hammers), Sing (close, natural), String (axes, bows), and Wind (monk, thrown). That unlocks Weapon Specialization, +2 damage per attack, which is a decent feat for archers. This stacks with the damage boost from Inspire Courage. A Tuned Bowstring solves the problem with holding a string instrument and shooting at the same time, though that comes late (but ultimately doesn't matter since the important bardic performances don't care about your skill check, so you can dance or sing untrained).
Thoughts on this build?
1: PBS
1h: Precise Shot
2b: Versatile Performance (String)
3: Rapid Shot
5: Lingering Performance
6b: Martial Performance (Longbow)
7: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
9: Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
11: Manyshot
Any archetypes this would work well with? It wants Inspire Courage's boost high and needs versatile performance left intact, but otherwise doesn't depend on other bard features.
Flame dancer - capability to see through fog effects.
6b gets you weapon focus already. Though I assume you are going half elf for longbow proficiency? Otherwise you get prof with shortbow as a bard.
You only get weapon focus if you're already proficient, otherwise you become proficient. I was thinking human, but if trading a feat for proficiency (transitively), Half-Elf would indeed be better. In-fact, now that I look at it again, despite the name there's no reason not to take Orc Hornbow instead as it isn't limited to martial weapons.
I'm not a fan of archer bards because archery takes too many feats. --You'll end up being a mediocre bard (because you spent most of your feats on archery) and a mediocre archer (because your point-buy is skewed toward charisma, which is a dump-stat for martial archers, and away from strength, a bard's usual dump stat but which is needed for arrows as opposed to, say, crossbows) with 3/4ths BAB who still doesn't have enough feats. With Desna's Shooting Star being a thing now, archer-bards can be safely left in the 3e dust. (Unless you're stuck in PFS.)
Slim Jim's Bard Feat Axiom: "Look through your bard's feat list and separate out any that have to do with weapons or increasing damage or attack-bonus. Throw those in the trash. -- You are a bard. Be awesome at it."
Shooting Star is the sole exception, for those minmaxing charisma.
Half Elf, Human or Elf can start with Longbow proficiency. Half Elf could start with Orc Hornbow which is superior.
If you can fit Deadly Aim in there I would.
I disagree with Slim that bards aren't great archers. They lack bonus feats, but they get enough static bonuses to hit and damage to be great damage dealers without worrying too much about stats. You also maximise Inspire Courage by adding more attacks to the group.
You probably want to throw out one standard action buff at the beginning of combat, then there are plenty of swift/immediate action spells to throw around once you get started murdering everything. From level 7 you can Inspire Courage and Haste (or similar) in one round, so you buffing capabilities from one round go through the roof.
You won't be as good as the martial characters, but that's largely because you're making them better as well.
MrCharisma wrote: You won't be as good as the martial characters, but that's largely because you're making them better as well. And a bard is still a 6/9ths caster with 6+ skill points and thus not as complete dead weight out of combat (Ranger excluded).
deuxhero wrote: MrCharisma wrote: You won't be as good as the martial characters, but that's largely because you're making them better as well. And a bard is still a 6/9ths caster with 6+ skill points and thus not as complete dead weight out of combat (Ranger excluded). Also bards only nominally get 6+INT skills per level. From level 2 it's really 8+, and if you take more Versatile Performance options that number goes up.
I also just though: Weapon Specialization is nice, but you already have access to Arcane strike. Unless you're spending ALL your swift actions on spells/etc that'll probably end up better value (although you could take both). You could instead swap Deadly Aim for Arcane Strike if accuracy is more of a problem (just thinking out loud).
You might want to look at the Arrowsong Minstrel archetype. It combines well with Martial Performance;
Arrowsong Minstrel is proficient with longbows, plus Martial Performance yields Weapon Focus.
At 2nd level Arrowsong Minstrel gets Precise Shot as a bonus feat, even if they don't have PBS... and allies under the effect of their performance don't count as soft cover when shooting at enemies.
Finally, in addition to Martial Performance allowing 1/2 Bard level as Fighter level for pre-reqs, Arrowsong Minstrel grants full Bard level as BAB for pre-reqs.
Arrowsong Minstrel also gets a number of arrow/bow related Wizard spells and the ability to do ranged spellstrike like a Magus. It does give up the 2nd level Versatile Performance, but gets all the rest.
Tuned Bowstring and Community Minded trait should let you greatly stretch out bardic performance rounds for Inspire Courage.
Bard archers do decent but not great archers. They will be buffed enough to get to a respectable point, but they won't be fighters, inquisitors, rangers or else. But it's not their job, merely a secondary trait, that's not what I'd ask of them.
That said the idea of Arrowsong Ministrel is good if the player really wants to focus in, given the specific abilities the archetype gives. It's a balance to reach though : where to put the line between indnvidual and team contribution ?
Strictly for resource-taxing reasons, I built my own bard as an OTP buffer and disregarded the ranged tidbit because it's way less SAD for instance, and I don't have then to dilute the (de)buffing potency, and easier to play because I don't have to think the timeline between buffing and attacking, now being an OTP isn't what I'd recommend as a whole.
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On playing an archer bard in general: you trade your own raw damage as an archer to boost the rest of the team. You get good spells and songs to make everyone fight better, including personal favorites like Good Hope, Haste, and etc. It's something that I've played in 3.5 (Neverwinter Nights 2 specifically) and in Pathfinder tabletop and it's been effective in both.
You can use feats to boost your damage higher, note. And on that note, don't forget about Discordant Voice. Your party will love you.
Arrowsong Minstrel makes a particularly good archer because your accuracy is solid. You get Precise Shot for free and your allies don't give your enemies cover. That's... really nice.
Arrowsong Strike is a bit underwhelming until you hit level 18, IMO. But when you DO hit level 18 you're looking at a full attack + a spell, which feels similar to a Magus' Spellstrike. It's a nice almost-capstone for long campaigns.
Finally, Arrowsong Minstrel counts as qualifying for fighter feats and gets to add specific offensive wizard spells to their list. So... good deal, that. Diminished spellcasting, but I think it's worth it for an archer in a prolonged campaign.
Toirin wrote: Flame dancer - capability to see through fog effects. Not only can you see through Fire and Smoke, but so can your whole party. That means your favorite spell is not Pyrotechnics, which makes a big cloud and everybody is Blind except for you and your party.
Your favorite Wondrous Item is the Eversmoking Bottle, even better then Pyrotechnics, and you can use it as often as you want.
MrCharisma wrote: Half Elf could start with Orc Hornbow which is superior. Yes. Do that.
So, I like dipping a level in Ranger and using a Wand of Gravity Bow, making your Orc Hornbow do 3d6 instead of 2d6.
I like the idea of dipping a level into something that gives you the Growth Subdomain of Plant--Inquisitor, for instance--and use Enlarge Person as a Swift Action. You'd need to carry around a quiver of Size Large Arrows. Then you Drop them as a Free Action, Enlarge as a Swift Action, then pick them up as a Move Action, and I guess you use your Wand as a Standard Action, then you start shooting arrows that do 4d6 Damage.
If you are making everybody Blind with Pyrotechnics or an Eversmoking Bottle, then you are automatically denying all your oppoents their Dex Mods to AC, and that means Sneak Attack Damage. I'd load up on Sneak Attack Damage, dipping into Snakebite Striker Brawler, URogue or Ninja, taking Accomplished Sneak Attacker, the works.
Eventually, I'd start learning Dirty Tricks. That way if you run into a creature with Blindsight, you can play a Dirty Trick on them to make them Deaf as well as Blind. That should do it.
But now, you're not exactly a Bard anymore...
Quote: So, I like dipping a level in Ranger and using a Wand of Gravity Bow, making your Orc Hornbow do 3d6 instead of 2d6.
Arrowsong Minstrel can put that on their spell list. No need.
I don't think I'd bother with Gravity Bow + Enlarge person. Sure you're doing 4d6 damage per hot, but you've just spent 2 rounds buffing yourself instead of attacking.
At later levels Gravity Bow would work for an Arrowsong Minstrel, but the duration for a wand isn't long enough to pre-buff.
Along the same lines I'd pick Heroism over Good Hope. Good Hope is a slightly superior buff, but has a shorter duration. If you can precast Heroism you're saving in-combat rounds to attack.
Again I'd spend one round buffing (maybe surprise round plus round 1), then start shooting.
You often can pre-buff Good Hope, especially with a metamagic rod of extend (14 minute duration at 7th lvl).
I would skip lingering performance of I were you.
Bardchers (tm) have a bonus others don't in tuned bowstring. If you're doing your job (archery) you're doing your other job (songs up).
So make it a priority. And buff up when you can sing as a move and you've no need to have lingering performance.
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Shorticus wrote: Arrowsong Minstrel can put that on their spell list. No need. I don't think you can be an Arrowsong Minstrel and a Flame Dancer, though.
MrCharisma wrote: I don't think I'd bother with Gravity Bow + Enlarge person. Sure you're doing 4d6 damage per hot, but you've just spent 2 rounds buffing yourself instead of attacking. It takes 2 rounds of buffing to do Gravity Bow, Enlarge Person, Song of Fiery Gaze, and activate your Eversmoking Bottle, but just Gravity Bow and Enlarge Person? That only takes 1 Round.
I explained this in my post above.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Shorticus wrote: Arrowsong Minstrel can put that on their spell list. No need. I don't think you can be an Arrowsong Minstrel and a Flame Dancer, though.
MrCharisma wrote: I don't think I'd bother with Gravity Bow + Enlarge person. Sure you're doing 4d6 damage per hot, but you've just spent 2 rounds buffing yourself instead of attacking. It takes 2 rounds of buffing to do Gravity Bow, Enlarge Person, Song of Fiery Gaze, and activate your Eversmoking Bottle, but just Gravity Bow and Enlarge Person? That only takes 1 Round.
I explained this in my post above. The problem with your tactic is that the growth subdomain power allows an inquisitor to enlarge themself for 1 round only and you’ve just spent that round doing a move action to pick up the arrows you dropped and a standard action to wand yourself gravity bow. You’re regular sized by the time you can act next.
A potion of enlarge person with its minute duration seems a better idea to me than a swift action that locks you into a specific move action. Two rounds of buffing for both gravity bow and enlarge but you at least have the possibility of a full attack or doing something other than picking up your outsized ammunition each round. Or I suppose another solution would be to figure how not to have to use your move action to pick up ammo but I’ve nothing in mind for this personally.
Just do the gravity bow. The big arrows (aside from cheesy) is a waste of time and bigger waste of cash with wands and potions.
Arrowsong adds gravity bow to your list and gives precise shot while singing and allies dont gove soft cover. Basically free feat plus more. Also gives longbow so you can choose race more freely.
Access to feats based on HD over BAB is amazing too.
And keeping versatile performance (just delayed) means getting something great later with more martial focus at level 10. (Still great for free stuff). Of you had weapon focus you get it back for another free feat. So between proficiency and precise shot and weapon focus you're 3 feats up.
Just get that bowstring and you're fine
If you want Flame Dancer more than Arrowsong Minstrel (in which case you might want to look in to multiclassing for Sneak Attack and adding Greater Sniper Goggles) then you could alternatively pick up the Arrowsong's Lament bardic masterpiece to get access to Gravity Bow and/or a few other Sor/Wiz spells each day. Indeed, given that you give up an X level Bard spell known in order to be able to spend 3 bardic performance rounds (during your daily one hour spell preparation) to ADD any 0 to X level Bard spell known OR 0 to X-2 Sor/Wiz spell to your Bard spells known, nearly every Bard should be taking that masterpiece at least once... if not for each spell level.
born_of_fire wrote: The problem with your tactic is that the growth subdomain power allows an inquisitor to enlarge themself for 1 round only Huh. I guess that was too good to be true.
Okay, so instead of dipping a level in Inquisitor, dip a level in Living Monolith. That way you get to Enlarge Person as a Swift Action as if you'd cast the Spell: 1 minute/level.
Cavall wrote: Just do the gravity bow. Honestly, after you get Song of Fiery Gaze and an Eversmoking Bottle, and before you get Gravity Bow, and before you dip a level in Living Monolith, just start getting that Sneak Attack Damage + Dirty Tricks just to be safe.
I'd rather go arrowsong and not have to level dip a thing.
Cavall wrote: I'd rather go arrowsong and not have to level dip a thing. Then go to it. Enjoy, and may Pelor shine upon your endeavors!
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Arrowsing Minstrel is the most flavorful bard archetype in Pathfinder. I really like the bardic masterpiece that accompanies it as well, Arrowsong's Lament.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: born_of_fire wrote: The problem with your tactic is that the growth subdomain power allows an inquisitor to enlarge themself for 1 round only Huh. I guess that was too good to be true.
Okay, so instead of dipping a level in Inquisitor, dip a level in Living Monolith. That way you get to Enlarge Person as a Swift Action as if you'd cast the Spell: 1 minute/level.
So you're giving up a level in casting ability and advancement, delaying your BAB increase for 1 level, taking Endurance and Iron Will plus 10 skill points in knowledge skills instead of bardic performance in order to gain:
0 BAB,+1 fortitude save, d8 hd, 2+int skill points, and the ability to Enlarge Person 3 times per day at 1st level?
Considering what you're giving up, it doesn't seem worth it. UMD a wand with Enlarge Person.
Part of it is that you'd be enlarging with a standard action instead of a full-round-action, which the wand doesn't give you.
I still don't think it's worth it.
In my mind if you're going to spend all those feats on archery you want to be spending most of your time shooting. Taking 1 round to buff is fine - even optimal (especially if you're buffing the group), but more than that and you're wasting your feats.
Yes you can deal more damage if you go large, but you're also taking a -2 to hit and wasting a standard action on something that only effects you.
Inspire Courage plus Haste (at level 7) is giving everyone in the party +3 to hit, +2 to damage and an extra attack at their full BAB (including the +3). At level 7 - when you get access to haste) this also only costs you a move and standard action (ie. 1 round). Yes you could buff yourself more (you can always buff yourself more), but those bonuses will likely be enough to sail through most encounters.
If you pick up a few swift/immediate action spells for emergencies (feather fall/liberating command/etc) you can still make use of your spells during combat while helping significantly with the damage. If you find yourself in an emergency situation where you need to cast another spell (CLW so the Barbarian doesn't bleed out) then of course you do that, but you don't have to build around it.
Meirril wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: born_of_fire wrote: The problem with your tactic is that the growth subdomain power allows an inquisitor to enlarge themself for 1 round only Huh. I guess that was too good to be true.
Okay, so instead of dipping a level in Inquisitor, dip a level in Living Monolith. That way you get to Enlarge Person as a Swift Action as if you'd cast the Spell: 1 minute/level.
So you're giving up a level in casting ability and advancement, delaying your BAB increase for 1 level, taking Endurance and Iron Will plus 10 skill points in knowledge skills instead of bardic performance in order to gain:
0 BAB,+1 fortitude save, d8 hd, 2+int skill points, and the ability to Enlarge Person 3 times per day at 1st level?
Considering what you're giving up, it doesn't seem worth it. UMD a wand with Enlarge Person. Depending on the build, Iron Will and Endurance can be lovely Feats to have and not a waste at all. You get an extra 1d6 Base Damage on both Ranged and melee attacks, maybe more, and an extra +1 Damage.
To achieve a truly devastating effect: make everyone Blind except you and your allies, and do it just about every time, all you need is 3 levels in Flame Damcer Bard and an Eversmoking Bottle. Like I was saying before, I wouldn't be in a hurry to dip a level in Ranger for a Wand of Gravity Bow (and Lead Blades) and a level in Living Monolith to Enlarge as a Swift Action. First I'd take advantage that almost all my opponents lose their Dex Mods to AC and start dipping in classes that give Sneak Attack Damage.
Half Orc, Shaman's Apprentice (Endurance), Orc Hornbow
1Fighter1: Precise Shot, BAB+1
2F1Bard1: Flame Dancer
3F1B2: Weapon focus?, BAB+2
4F1B3: Song of Fiery Gaze, BAB+3
5F1B3Brawler1: Snakebite Striker, Sneak Attack +1d6, Accomplished Sneak Attacker Sneak Attack +1d6, BAB+4
6F1B3S1Ninja1: Poison, Sneak Attack +1d6
7F1B3S1N2: Rogue Talent, Underhanded Trick, Combat Expertise, BAB+5
8F1B3S1N3: Sneak Attack +1d6
9F1B3S1N4: Quick Dirty Trick, Combat Trick, Greater Dirty Trick
So, now, like every combat, you make every opponent Blind with your Smoke, all your allies can see just fine, so they all enjoy a 50% Miss Chance, and target all Flatfooted AC all day. You do base Damage of 2d6 and do 4d6 Sneak Attack Damage very reliably with your Bow.
It's really after this point that I would take my level in Ranger and work take Iron Will and that level in Living Monolith. I might even dip a level in Fighter and/or Brawler first so I can take Feats like Agile Maneuvers, Weapon Specialization, Deadly Aim, and maybe even Stalwart, because how cool is it to have Total Concealment, a high AC because I have Endurance and can sleep in Medium Armor, and DR?! Next, I could take a level in Inquisitor and get Fast Healing! Then get a Protector Familiar that gives me Shield Other.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Meirril wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: born_of_fire wrote: The problem with your tactic is that the growth subdomain power allows an inquisitor to enlarge themself for 1 round only Huh. I guess that was too good to be true.
Okay, so instead of dipping a level in Inquisitor, dip a level in Living Monolith. That way you get to Enlarge Person as a Swift Action as if you'd cast the Spell: 1 minute/level.
So you're giving up a level in casting ability and advancement, delaying your BAB increase for 1 level, taking Endurance and Iron Will plus 10 skill points in knowledge skills instead of bardic performance in order to gain:
0 BAB,+1 fortitude save, d8 hd, 2+int skill points, and the ability to Enlarge Person 3 times per day at 1st level?
Considering what you're giving up, it doesn't seem worth it. UMD a wand with Enlarge Person. Depending on the build, Iron Will and Endurance can be lovely Feats to have and not a waste at all. You get an extra 1d6 Base Damage on both Ranged and melee attacks, maybe more, and an extra +1 Damage.
To achieve a truly devastating effect: make everyone Blind except you and your allies, and do it just about every time, all you need is 3 levels in Flame Damcer Bard and an Eversmoking Bottle. Like I was saying before, I wouldn't be in a hurry to dip a level in Ranger for a Wand of Gravity Bow (and Lead Blades) and a level in Living Monolith to Enlarge as a Swift Action. First I'd take advantage that almost all my opponents lose their Dex Mods to AC and start dipping in classes that give Sneak Attack Damage.
Half Orc, Shaman's Apprentice (Endurance), Orc Hornbow
1Fighter1: Precise Shot, BAB+1
2F1Bard1: Flame Dancer
3F1B2: Weapon focus?, BAB+2
4F1B3: Song of Fiery Gaze, BAB+3
5F1B3Brawler1: Snakebite Striker, Sneak Attack +1d6, Accomplished Sneak Attacker Sneak Attack +1d6, BAB+4
6F1B3S1Ninja1: Poison, Sneak Attack +1d6
7F1B3S1N2: Rogue Talent, Underhanded Trick, Combat Expertise, BAB+5
8F1B3S1N3:... At this point, are you even a bard anymore? Not really, you’re just a motley patchwork of class abilities, overly invested in sneak attack and a gimmick that’s going to annoy your GM to the point of exasperation unless they’re a saint. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. To each his own, I suppose. At least this proposal is mechanically sound, unlike the growth subdomain enlarge from earlier.
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Scott Wilhelm wrote: Meirril wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: born_of_fire wrote: The problem with your tactic is that the growth subdomain power allows an inquisitor to enlarge themself for 1 round only Huh. I guess that was too good to be true.
Okay, so instead of dipping a level in Inquisitor, dip a level in Living Monolith. That way you get to Enlarge Person as a Swift Action as if you'd cast the Spell: 1 minute/level.
So you're giving up a level in casting ability and advancement, delaying your BAB increase for 1 level, taking Endurance and Iron Will plus 10 skill points in knowledge skills instead of bardic performance in order to gain:
0 BAB,+1 fortitude save, d8 hd, 2+int skill points, and the ability to Enlarge Person 3 times per day at 1st level?
Considering what you're giving up, it doesn't seem worth it. UMD a wand with Enlarge Person. Depending on the build, Iron Will and Endurance can be lovely Feats to have and not a waste at all. You get an extra 1d6 Base Damage on both Ranged and melee attacks, maybe more, and an extra +1 Damage.
To achieve a truly devastating effect: make everyone Blind except you and your allies, and do it just about every time, all you need is 3 levels in Flame Damcer Bard and an Eversmoking Bottle. Like I was saying before, I wouldn't be in a hurry to dip a level in Ranger for a Wand of Gravity Bow (and Lead Blades) and a level in Living Monolith to Enlarge as a Swift Action. First I'd take advantage that almost all my opponents lose their Dex Mods to AC and start dipping in classes that give Sneak Attack Damage.
Half Orc, Shaman's Apprentice (Endurance), Orc Hornbow
1Fighter1: Precise Shot, BAB+1
2F1Bard1: Flame Dancer
3F1B2: Weapon focus?, BAB+2
4F1B3: Song of Fiery Gaze, BAB+3
5F1B3Brawler1: Snakebite Striker, Sneak Attack +1d6, Accomplished Sneak Attacker Sneak Attack +1d6, BAB+4
6F1B3S1Ninja1: Poison, Sneak Attack +1d6
7F1B3S1N2: Rogue Talent, Underhanded Trick, Combat Expertise, BAB+5
8F1B3S1N3:... OP: "Hey guys, can you help me build a [Human] [archer] [Bard]?"
Scott Wilhelm: "Here is a Half-Orc Fighter Bard Brawler Ninja Ranger Living Monolith"
Wow. Just, wow. This is somehow even worse than Slim Jim's "Just do not play an archer Bard", and his reply is literally the opposite of what the OP asked! How can you beat that?!
We are reaching levels of spam and/or reading comprehension disability above and beyond any expectation. Just a general tip: if you can't say anything useful within the purview of what the OP asked, do not reply.
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To the OP: Bards make very good archers. The secret of archery is stacking many small damage bonuses via buffs, and Bards are masters at buffing: Inspire Courage, spells, Arcane Strike.
While Arrowsong Minstrel is a clearly fitting and good archetype for this build, I also like to consider Archaeologist: with the Fate's Favored trait it grants you a nice +2 Luck bonus to hit and damage right at level 1, with swift-activation (so no activation round needed), which will stack with Greater Bracers of Archery later on (unlike standard Inspire Courage).
Gray Warden wrote: OP: "Hey guys, can you help me build a [Human] [archer] [Bard]?"
Scott Wilhelm: "Here is a Half-Orc Fighter Bard Brawler Ninja Ranger Living Monolith"
Wow. Just, wow. This is somehow even worse than Slim Jim's "Just do not play an archer Bard", and his reply is literally the opposite of what the OP asked! How can you beat that?!
We are reaching levels of spam and/or reading comprehension disability above and beyond any expectation. Just a general tip: if you can't say anything useful within the purview of what the OP asked, do not reply.
Calling them out on an equal rude level won't have a better effect either, that's the problem.
And there's not over-selling the potency of the bard as an archer. I won't repeat why it's possible, but there's a big IF.
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Philippe Lam wrote: Calling them out on an equal rude level won't have a better effect either, that's the problem. Who knows, maybe at a certain point they will stop spamming and start replying on-topic. As a user of these boards, I think I have the right to ask for no off-topic replies.
Philippe Lam wrote: And there's not over-selling the potency of the bard as an archer. I won't repeat why it's possible, but there's a big IF. There is really no big IF. You just need standard archery feats: PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshot. Once you have those, and a discrete bonus to damage on each arrow, you are pretty much set. You used Inquisitors as an example: Inquisitors have Divine Favor, Judgments, Bane (which is their main shtick), but Bards also have their own perks: Inspire Courage (or Archaeologist's Luck), Arcane Strike, Good Hope. Bards might not add a net +2d6 per hit, but they can buff the rest of the party just as a byproduct of buffing themselves, which I believe is easily comparable.
born_of_fire wrote: At this point, are you even a bard anymore? This is something that I spoke to earlier.
I wrote: If you are making everybody Blind with Pyrotechnics or an Eversmoking Bottle, then you are automatically denying all your oppoents their Dex Mods to AC, and that means Sneak Attack Damage. I'd load up on Sneak Attack Damage, dipping into Snakebite Striker Brawler, URogue or Ninja, taking Accomplished Sneak Attacker, the works.
Eventually, I'd start learning Dirty Tricks. That way if you run into a creature with Blindsight, you can play a Dirty Trick on them to make them Deaf as well as Blind. That should do it.
But now, you're not exactly a Bard anymore...
But I do believe my build is a valid answer to the OP's request. My character is an archer and a Bard. You can make the argument that only 3 levels of Bard makes the character barely qualify, but the build I offered does in fact depend heavily on those levels in Bard.
I'm not the one who broached the topic of Flame Dancer. That was
Toirin wrote: Flame dancer - capability to see through fog effects. Well, my character is built around the ability to create smoke and the ability to give your allies the ability to see through that smoke. And Sneak Attacking is the obvious application of that ability.
born_of_fire wrote: overly invested in sneak attack Meh, lots of players single class in classes that get +1d6 Sneak Attack every other level. I just found a way to build a character to lock in Sneak Attack Damage reliably.
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born_of_fire wrote: you’re just a motley patchwork of class abilities, So, there is whole thing in the Core Rulebook called Prestige Classes, and every single one of these Prestige Classes is intended as a way to facilitate multiclassing.
Remember that when Pathfinder was first created, the first thing Paizo did was copy and paste the entirety of the 3.5 Editions of the Dungeons and Dragons Players' Handbook and Dungeon Masters' Guide and paste them into their Core Rulebook, changing very few things. But one of the things that they did change is that in 3.5 you used to only be able to multiclass in certain ways, keeping all your levels equal like Monopoly Townhouses unless you were using Favored Classes or Prestige Classes, and if you failed to do that, you would take an Experience Point penalty. Of all the other things Paizo Publishing could have changed, they decided to remove that experience point penalty and made it easier than ever before to multiclass to our hearts' content.
I lay these facts before you as clear evidence that it is the intent of the rules that many players multiclass with many characters using many classes, and then when I play with and post builds that do this, I am in fact playing Pathfinder in the highest and finest tradition of the game, and it is all you poo-pooers, naysayers, and so-called purists who fall short of the true vision!
born_of_fire wrote: overly invested in sneak attack and a gimmick born_of_fire wrote: you’re just a motley patchwork of class abilities, It's funny. You seem to think my character build is both over-specialized and over-generalized at the same time.
It has lots of skills, lots of Class Skills, good saving throws, a high base-damage at Range, some spells, reliably high bonus damage, and a powerful de-buff. for the whole party.
Honestly, this seems like what a Bard should be, if you can accept a Bard that does respectable Damage himself.
As an aside:
If you want to build a mean, pure Bard, you might consider a halfling with a sling. Crazy as it sounds, Slipslinger Style or the Warslinger alternate racial trait + the Startoss Style line of feats = good, consistent damage with a powerful standard action comparable to Manyshot.
It's not a bow, to be true, but it makes for a good ranged build, and the +damage from multiple Startoss Style feats (which, yes, apply to slings) is available to bards, unlike things like Weapon Specialization.
Warslinger is probably easier to reduce on feat costs, but it means using a standard sling (1d3+STR for a halfling). It won't be as powerful as, say, a Warpriest because an Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest can get access to advanced weapon training goodies, but it's still going to be highly respectable. However, a properly built halfling slinger bard is still going to be boosting the damage of his team and still going to be very helpful.
The big downside is Gravity Bow does not apply to a sling.
Shorticus wrote: Warslinger is probably easier to reduce on feat costs, but it means using a standard sling (1d3+STR for a halfling). Slipslinger Style lets you use Warslinger, and any other 'sling' related abilities, with any weapon that has sling in the name... so the sling staff and double sling come back in to play if desired.
Shorticus wrote: The big downside is Gravity Bow does not apply to a sling. Eh. Just get some Boulder Bullets and laugh at those cute little 'gravity bow' attacks.
CBDunkerson wrote: Eh. Just get some Boulder Bullets and laugh at those cute little 'gravity bow' attacks. Boulder Bullet wrote: Price varies: light 806 gp; standard 1,966 gp; heavy 4,006 gp Hardly a sustainable strategy.
Gray Warden wrote: CBDunkerson wrote: Eh. Just get some Boulder Bullets and laugh at those cute little 'gravity bow' attacks. Boulder Bullet wrote: Price varies: light 806 gp; standard 1,966 gp; heavy 4,006 gp Hardly a sustainable strategy. Very true, but fun when you need the extra oomph.
Gray Doge wrote: So very Wow. Just, wow. This is somehow even more WOW! ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
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I could see Boulder Bullets being used like consumables for those special fights, yeah.
"Nice face you got there, cyclops king. Be a shame if something happened to it."
Scott Wilhelm wrote: born_of_fire wrote: overly invested in sneak attack and a gimmick born_of_fire wrote: you’re just a motley patchwork of class abilities, It's funny. You seem to think my character build is both over-specialized and over-generalized at the same time.
It has lots of skills, lots of Class Skills, good saving throws, a high base-damage at Range, some spells, reliably high bonus damage, and a powerful de-buff. for the whole party.
Honestly, this seems like what a Bard should be, if you can accept a Bard that does respectable Damage himself. Your build is a mess. Think about actually using it. Assuming you have an 18 charisma you have 12 rounds of bardic performance a day.
Round 1: unstopper Eversmoking Bottle. Your allies can't see. Neither can you. This takes a standard action.
Round 2: standard action to play. You're providing 50% miss chance for your party, but no enhancement to their ability to kill things unless they built their characters around your concept.
Round 3: Free action to continue playing, and you shoot 1 arrow.
The longer the fight lasts, the less fights you'll be able to accomplish per day. If your average fight lasts 5 rounds, that means you can do 3 encounters per day before you run out of juice. And when you do, your smoke probably hurts your party more than the monsters you're fighting.
Lets touch on economics. The Eversmoking Bottle is a 5,400 gp item. Unless your GM is going to gift you one, trying to afford one before 8th level will be tough. Even then, that should be a large portion of your discretionary wealth.
Worse, playing this before the trick comes on line, you're just a bad archer. If you have the bottle at 4th you suddenly have the equivalent of Improved Invisibility for your entire party, for 12 rounds per day. If you don't have the bottle, then you don't have the trick.
Even with your opponents being flat footed, this bard will have a tough time hitting a lot of monsters. The bard doesn't have the feats to be a really good archer, and when he runs out of performance rounds he is going to lose his ability to do sneak attacks as well.
It is possible to fix the performance gap, but it will cost a significant amount of gold. Is a build good when you can't make it reliable until 9th level? I'm of the opinion that if you could start at a 8th level character it would probably be fun to play, but if you start from 1st it probably won't be a good experience.
Meirril wrote: Round 1: unstopper Eversmoking Bottle. Your allies can't see. Neither can you. This takes a standard action. A character can unstopper and drink a potion as a move action... I don't see how it could take them a standard action to just unstopper the bottle. It'd be a move action at most. I'd probably rule a move action to reach for the bottle and unstopper it, or a free action to unstopper if you already have your hand on the stopper.
As to timing, maybe wait to do this AFTER you have started the effect that lets you see through smoke OR do so while buffing before a fight has started.
Meirril wrote: Round 2: standard action to play. You're providing 50% miss chance for your party, but no enhancement to their ability to kill things unless they built their characters around your concept. It is a 50% miss chance IF the enemies somehow know or guess what square you are in... otherwise they might well attack an empty square and the miss chance is 100%. Meanwhile, enemies in the cloud lose their Dex bonus and take an additional -2 penalty to AC, move at half speed (or need to make acrobatics checks to avoid falling), may well provoke AoO moving blindly, and can't take withdraw actions. Those are pretty serious enhancements to killing even for characters who don't have abilities (e.g. sneak attack) which get even more benefit.
Meirril wrote: If your average fight lasts 5 rounds, that means you can do 3 encounters per day before you run out of juice. And when you do, your smoke probably hurts your party more than the monsters you're fighting. At low levels... and presumably you wouldn't use the smoke if you didn't have bardic performance rounds to see through it.
Meirril wrote: Worse, playing this before the trick comes on line, you're just a bad archer. If you have the bottle at 4th you suddenly have the equivalent of Improved Invisibility for your entire party, for 12 rounds per day. If you don't have the bottle, then you don't have the trick. A smokestick costs 20 gp (use Spark cantrip to light). Song of the Fiery Gaze requires 3rd level... by which point the Obscuring Mist and Fog Cloud spells are available. You can get by just fine until you can afford the bottle.
CBDunkerson wrote: Meirril wrote: Round 1: unstopper Eversmoking Bottle. Your allies can't see. Neither can you. This takes a standard action. A character can unstopper and drink a potion as a move action... I don't see how it could take them a standard action to just unstopper the bottle. It'd be a move action at most. I'd probably rule a move action to reach for the bottle and unstopper it, or a free action to unstopper if you already have your hand on the stopper. It's a standard action to drink a potion.
I could see an argument for unstoppering being a move action, but by the rules of the game it's a standard action (and free action wouldn't even be on the table).
EDIT: Just to be clear, I don't think that build is as bad as some here do, but it is pretty gimicky, and it dies have it's flaws.
Meirril wrote: Assuming you have an 18 charisma you have 12 rounds of bardic performance a day. That's a limitation. I'm not sure what is a typical number of rounds for a PC to spend fighting in a day.
Meirril wrote: Round 1: unstopper Eversmoking Bottle. Your allies can't see. Neither can you. This takes a standard action. Actually, I think it takes a Move Action to unstopper the Bottle. Normally Activating an Item does take a Standard Action. But this item is activated by unstoppering it. Retrieving a Stored Item takes a Move Action. As a Move Action, I would retrieve the stopper from my Eversmoking Bottle, then drop it as a Free Action. I envision the stopper as being attached to the bottle by a chain like the top of a canteen. Anyway, the RAW just says it is re-stoppered as a Standard Action.
That being said, even conceding what you say, that is a powerful de-buff that is imposed on everyone for 1 round, and just your opponents on subsequent rounds, and that first round does not count against the 12/day you mentioned.
Meirril wrote: standard action to play. You're providing 50% miss chance for your party, but no enhancement to their ability to kill things unless they built their characters around your concept. False, in practice, anyway. Blinded opponents lose their Dex Mods to AC. All my allies will be targeting Flatfooted AC. Furthermore, for your opponents all terrain becomes Difficult Terrain, so it will be much easier to do things like achieve Flanking, and they will not be able to 5' Step, and that means more Attacks of Opportunity for the party.
But even if the only Benefit were a 50% Miss Chance for the Party, that is awesome.
But it is fair to say that a character that can play such a big trick as mine does suggest a direction for the entire party to take with their character builds, and that can be seen as rude. Or it encouraged GM cheating.
GM wrote: Dumb, luck, this, but it seems all your opponents once again all have Greater Blindfighting and Tremorsense. What a surprise, this time you're fighting another Ooze! This one is pink. Meirril wrote: Lets touch on economics. The Eversmoking Bottle is a 5,400 gp item. Unless your GM is going to gift you one, trying to afford one before 8th level will be tough. Even then, that should be a large portion of your discretionary wealth. Yes, but I think worth it. There are other, cheaper options though. A Horn of Fog works almost as well and is much cheaper, and level 3 Bards can cast Pyrotechnics. But those have that problem you mentioned where they take Standard Actions to activate. Smokesticks, too, and they only provide partial concealment and don't deny opponents Dex mods to AC.
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MrCharisma wrote: CBDunkerson wrote: Meirril wrote: Round 1: unstopper Eversmoking Bottle. Your allies can't see. Neither can you. This takes a standard action. A character can unstopper and drink a potion as a move action... I don't see how it could take them a standard action to just unstopper the bottle. It'd be a move action at most. I'd probably rule a move action to reach for the bottle and unstopper it, or a free action to unstopper if you already have your hand on the stopper. It's a standard action to drink a potion.
I could see an argument for unstoppering being a move action, but by the rules of the game it's a standard action (and free action wouldn't even be on the table).
EDIT: Just to be clear, I don't think that build is as bad as some here do, but it is pretty gimicky, and it dies have it's flaws. It’s super gimmicky. That’s the problem with it. It’s going to hit like a kitten made out of wet noodles in any situation it can’t sneak attack and there are plenty of those, even with the 12 or so rounds of performance that “lock in” its sneak attack. Sneak attack and ranged attacks don’t mix well, for starters, and there are plenty of creatures straight up unaffected by sneak attack, are innately unaffected by this tactic or can overcome this tactic with abilities or tactics of their own.
The build takes 8 levels to “lock in” 12 rounds of sneak attack damage. That’s not a reasonable investment when you consider what it’s traded away to become this one trick pony. Its CL is 3 and it’s short a ton of skill points compared to a straight or lightly dipped bard. It has no higher level performances, no masterpieces, it has only level 1 spells so no haste nor heroism nor good hope nor finale other than saving. It takes the king of versatility and trades that all away for a singular, limited tactic. This is not a bard that sneak attacks, it’s a sneak attacker that has dipped 3 levels of bard.
born_of_fire wrote: It’s super gimmicky. That’s the problem with it. That's fair.
born_of_fire wrote: That’s the problem with it. It’s going to hit like a kitten made out of wet noodles in any situation it can’t sneak attack I don't think so. Orc Hornbow with Precise shot (and Point Blank Shot) for a Base 2d6 Damage is quite respectable. Meanwhile this character has lots of Skills, some Spells, and 3 good saves.
born_of_fire wrote: situation it can’t sneak attack and there are plenty of those... there are plenty of creatures straight up unaffected by sneak attack, Not so many. Oozes, Swarms, Incorporeal Undead, what others?
born_of_fire wrote: The build takes 8 levels to “lock in” 12 rounds of sneak attack damage. I'd say it only takes 3, but admittedly, it depends on how you count.
It takes 1 level to be able to fire into melee: that's why I have you take your first level in Fighter.
Then it only takes 3 levels to get Song of Fiery Gaze, and that lets your whole party see through fire and smoke. Then it is upon the party to acquire ways of making smoke such as Pyrotechnics, Fog Cloud, Smokesticks, Horn of Fog, and--my favorite--the Eversmoking Bottle. It is at this point, Level 4, when your character regularly locks in Sneak Attack Damage for 12 Rounds. It's just that this character doesn't have any Sneak Attack Damage at this point, but the chances are high that someone in the party does. Meanwhile everyone can enjoy Total Concealment, targeting Flatfooted AC and Moving normally while their opponents are on Difficult Terrain.
The next level, the character takes a level in Snakebite Striker Brawler and takes Accomplished Sneak Attacker, so now this this character has 2d6 SA Damage at level 5 locked in for 12 Rounds/day, Then at level 6, a level in some kind of Rogue or Ninja, and the character gets another 1d6 SA Damage for 3d6 SA and 2d6 Base Damage.
So I don't think it is at all fair to say that it takes 8 rounds to lock in 12 Rounds of Sneak Attack Damage. It takes 3 levels to lock it in. it takes 1 level to get Precise and Point Bland shot. It takes 1 level to get 2d6 Sneak Attack Damage.
So, I could say 3, but arguably 4 or 5. Certainly not 8.
born_of_fire wrote: it’s short a ton of skill points compared to a straight or lightly dipped bard. Actually, the opposite is true. Ninjas and Rogues get 8 Skill points/level where Bards get 6. And with the extensive multiclassing, more skills are Class Skills, and that means more of those +3s.
born_of_fire wrote: It has no higher level performances, no masterpieces, it has only level 1 spells so no haste nor heroism nor good hope nor finale All true.
born_of_fire wrote: It takes the king of versatility and trades that all away for a singular, limited tactic. Well, that's just not true. This character is just differently versatile. Also, the tactic is not all that limited. I mean, yeah, you are fairly committed to shooting, not melee, but that's not uncommon. But there really aren't that many creatures that are immune to Precision Damage, and the base Damage for this character is a respectable 2d6. Arrows come in a variety of types: blunt, cold iron, silver, adamantine-blanced, so archers have many options for overcoming DR.
born_of_fire wrote: This is not a bard that sneak attacks, it’s a sneak attacker that has dipped 3 levels of bard. That is true enough.
Scott Wilhelm:
Creatures that are innately immune to sneak attack are not the only ones that foil your tactic. You also have to be aware of blind creatures, creatures with tremorsense, blindsense and the more advanced scent feats, basically any creatures not reliant on sight; creatures that see in smoke and fog innately; creatures that have their own fog-cutting lenses or similar tool; creatures that can disperse your smoke or fog and there’s likely more than that too. Your GM doesn’t have “cheat” to challenge this tactic; there’s plenty of legit options that make sense for other reasons than shutting down this character.
I admit I said 8 levels to achieve your goal because that’s the level the build is presented at. I mistakenly assumed that was the level you felt it was online and effective.
I have a bardcher that I’ve got prepped as a backup character. Unfortunately, it is level 10 so not a direct comparison to your build however I don’t feel you would remedy the issues your build has compared to a more traditional bardcher by tacking on two more levels. There’s no way your build bumped to 10th has the 130 skill points mine does. In addition, you are not a lore master or a jack of all trades like my bardcher is, further adding to his skills in ways yours never will. Your build lacks most of the feats that makes archery powerful: rapid shot, many shot, deadly aim, and clustered shot. Arcane strike is also nice in this specific case but you haven’t got that either. I have the higher level performances. I haven’t taken a masterpiece yet and may never but the option exists for me. I have the bard buffs that most people expect, haste, heroism, good hope and access to the finale spells etc. I have 28 rounds of performance per day.
I’m terrible at math so not doing any real analysis here, just very rough impression. It seems to me that your 2d6+4d6 SA that requires very specific circumstances to make work and can be done only 12 rounds per day is rather comparable to my bardcher’s 1d8+12 with two extra arrows (one from manyshot and one from rapid shot) that I can shoot any time, all the time. I also don’t have to be within 30’ of any target I want to damage well.
This is what I mean when I say you have taken the king of versatility and reduced to a singular tactic. You do one thing well: blind people with fog to buff yourself and your party and then sneak attack those blind people. You’re severely limited in what you bring to the table for you or your party once you’ve used all your rounds of performance compared to a more traditional bard.
I’m grateful for the civil discourse. Cheers!
I dont see anything in the description for ever smoking bottle that says move action activation. Therefore standard action.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Meirril wrote: Round 1: unstopper Eversmoking Bottle. Your allies can't see. Neither can you. This takes a standard action. Actually, I think it takes a Move Action to unstopper the Bottle. Normally Activating an Item does take a Standard Action. But this item is activated by unstoppering it. Retrieving a Stored Item takes a Move Action. As a Move Action, I would retrieve the stopper from my Eversmoking Bottle, then drop it as a Free Action. I envision the stopper as being attached to the bottle by a chain like the top of a canteen. Anyway, the RAW just says it is re-stoppered as a Standard Action.
General rule on magic items is that unless specified otherwise, it takes a standard action to activate an item. Unstoppering the bottle is activating the item. the item does not specify otherwise. Therefore, it takes a standard action. The author did feel that it was necessary to specify what kind of action it is to deactivate the item, and I can understand his concern since you aren't normally concerned with deactivating items.
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