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Just a thought rattling around my head today. Would ylu consider "Eidolon" as in the summoners class feature to be a class or a race?
If you do consider it to be a race and were mad enough to grant it class levels would you treat it as a gestalt Eidolon/Class getting the best benefits of either, multiclass 15 racial levels of Eidolon (lvl 20 summoner) and 5 levels of class X or just dive fully into the madness (say it was just you and one player so you want them powerful enough to survive an adventure meant for four) and give it full Eidolon benefits and level up the class at the same rate as the players summoner?
I think it counts as an Outsider - which would be it' "race".
I wouldn't grant it class levels (it's a class feature, so it's like giving Armour Training class levels).
If you were playing in a Gestalt game and the summoner wanted to give the Eidolon class levels instead of taking those class levels himself it might work?
Eg.
Fighter/Bard
Sorcerer/Monk
Summoner/nothing (with Eidolon/Cavalier)
So everyine except the Summoner gets Gestalt characters and the summoner's Eidolon gets class levels from one class. I could see that working, but since I've never played a Summoner (or Gestalt) I don't really know how unbalanced it would be.
If it had class levels, it would cease to be a class feature. Furthermore, gestalt is not actually part of the game (it's a houserule), so the question is rather irrelevant.
Neither.
The "fully gestalt" games I'm familiar with from 3.5 gave creatures with non-class Hit Dice and no class a single class with levels equal to their Hit Dice. Hence, a 1st-level gestalt party might first be tasked to clear the tavern's cellar of a group of dire rat barbarian 1. If we extended the same concept to eidolons, animal companions, etc., that would give them a single class as well. This would be a ridiculous increase in power for PC classes with pets, though, as they'd essentially be double-dipping some of their gestalt benefits. I wouldn't do it.
Edit: Well, I might allow it if the PC forgoes its other gestalt class. So a summoner 10 with no other class might get an eidolon with 8 class levels; and similarly for druid, wizard, and so on.
Just a thought rattling around my head today. Would ylu consider "Eidolon" as in the summoners class feature to be a class or a race?
Neither. It's an outsider. See unfettered eidolon for advancing one as an independent creature.
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Just a thought rattling around my head today. Would ylu consider "Eidolon" as in the summoners class feature to be a class or a race?Neither. It's an outsider. See unfettered eidolon for advancing one as an independent creature.
That would be a race.
The ancestor eidolon effectively gets both.
Eidolon’s can get racial bonuses from their evolutions and subtypes, so saying they have a “race” seems reasonable. But that race may just be outsider(eidolon).
They don’t usually have classes though and advance as having monster hit dice.
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The ancestor eidolon effectively gets both.
Eidolon’s can get racial bonuses from their evolutions and subtypes, so saying they have a “race” seems reasonable. But that race may just be outsider(eidolon).
They don’t usually have classes though and advance as having monster hit dice.
Same thing could be said about Balors or Solars too.
I would call it a class feature, so neither.
I would call it a class feature, so neither.
False dichotomy. Being one doesn’t mean you can’t be the other.
I would call it a class feature, so neither.False dichotomy. Being one doesn’t mean you can’t be the other.
According to that kind of logic, I should be able to choose Armor Training as my Race, and Mental Focus as my Class.
Not necessarily.
All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.
A Cavalier's mount is a class feature that has a race.
Look at the instructor wizard. It has a class feature that has both race and class. Clearly class features can have such things.
Look at the instructor wizard. It has a class feature that has both race and class. Clearly class features can have such things.
Just because a class feature can have both Race and Class attached to it does not mean that it is a Race or a Class in and of itself. For example, just because a person has a foot does not mean a person is a foot.
Look at the instructor wizard. It has a class feature that has both race and class. Clearly class features can have such things.Just because a class feature can have both Race and Class attached to it does not mean that it is a Race or a Class in and of itself. For example, just because a person has a foot does not mean a person is a foot.
What? All we’re saying is that a class features can have its own race and class. This has been proven. So saying the eidolon can’t have those things because it is a class feature is clearly wrong.
What? All we’re saying is that a class features can have its own race and class. This has been proven. So saying the eidolon can’t have those things because it is a class feature is clearly wrong.
I'm not saying that class features can't have a Race or a Class, because they can. What I'm saying is that calling an eidolon a Class or a Race is inaccurate. It is neither, even though it can have both. The eidolon is a class feature of the Summoner, and calling it anything else is simply incorrect.
I’d say “race” is partly based on sentience. Dragons are a race. Giants are a race.
What kind of bonus does the skilled evolution give?
Racial.
Every major race has an official subtype too. Human, elf, dwarf, gnome, halfling, orc, etc. So, is "race" in Pathfinder based on whether or not you have a subtype? Is there an official player race that doesn't have a subtype?
Is half-orc and half-elf a race? Or is it just a combination of two races?
I guess you also have to question if goblins and hobgoblins are the same race, since they are both of the goblinoid sub-type.
Giants are all the same type (humanoid) and subtype (giant), but have different races.
I think "subtype" is a game-mechanics term, while "Race" is a more generic term, used much like we do in the real world.
As to how that relates to Eidolons ... I'm not sure =P
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Out of curiosity has anyone ever confirmed that Eidolons cant breed with each other or us that just an assumption brought on by the fact if you dont have the paracosmist archetype they dissapear when you sleep? Even if they cant does that invalidate them mules im pretty sure are at least a subspecies and they cant generally breed.
Androids can’t breed but are generally considered a race in Pathfinder.
Androids can’t breed but are generally considered a race in Pathfinder.They reproduce. Maybe that's a more appropriate word. Eidolons are strictly created individually with no means of reproduction.
Maybe being summoned is how they reproduce? And saying androids “reproduce” is stretching that word pretty far. They are built independent of their own kind.
Personally, I’ve had an eidolon where their backstory was that they are the child of a powerful outsider the summoner’s family had befriended. I think eidolon’s were left vague here on purpose to allow for greater creative freedom.
If we’re getting into the rules, they aren’t individually created. Their form is merely shaped by the summoner, a bit like a polymorph effect.
A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature.
The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner's desires.