Frostbite wants rime spell badly and can make good use of elemental spell and empower spell later on.
Martial 1H or light weapons with 18-20 crit range include kukris, scimitars/cutlasses and rapiers. Exotic ones include the waveblade, wakizashi, katana, estoc and urumi. There are several tricks specific to scimitars you can use if you want to spend the feats, but if you have other plans then they're nothing special and the others work as well.
While some people really like to add kensai I think just bladebound is better.
Also the elven thornblade which is the ideal magus weapon with p or s and a +2 to crit confirmation rolls.
I like Hexcrafter a lot and it stacks with bladebound. It's such a good archetype I take it on pretty much every magus build unless I can't do to taking another archetype the prevents me.
One problem with dex to damage is that Paizo disapproved of its use with spell combat, and aside from dervish dance (scimitar) which was in an obscure book, they errataed/FAQed the feats which allowed it to not work with spell combat. Dervish dance still technically works (though it probably shouldn't) and things like an agile weapon would work if you weren't bladebound.
The other problem as you demonstrated with that feat plan is that you're short on feats to make it happen. Magi don't get a bonus feat at level 2 (though they do get bonus feats at levels 5 & 11). You're also going to want spell penetration some time.
It's possible to make a Str-based magus work with defences like flamboyant arcana and mirror image, though it's a bit iffy. It's also possible to make a weapon finesse magus without dex to damage and rely more heavily on your spells for damage.
Your best route to dex to damage is with the agile enchantment. It's cheaper than spending a feat on dervish dance and you'll have a lot more weapon options. You'll have to get your gm to ok that though.
As far as half elf, you can take a racial trait that gives you elven weapon familiarity which works. That or you can take ancestral arms for the specific weapon proficiency.
Edit: there is one other option for dex to damage as a magus (though not for a bladebound) that is spiked chain with dance of chains. It's fun because you get reach as a magus with spell combat, but you have to sacrifice your crit range. Might not be so bad with a frostbite build though.
I'm suggesting that I works with his gm to see if he'll let the op take agile instead on the usual +2 enchantment. It would be completely in the GM's purview, but I Kno as a gm I'd allow it.
Dance of chains requires 4 feats (EWP, weapon finesse, chain mastery and dance of chains itself), and probably still wouldn't work.
You lose these benefits while fighting with multiple weapons
This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.
Getting your GM to allow arcane pool to add agile to your bladebound weapon could work of course.
Like I said, there are non-dex-to-damage options.
It's possible to make a Str-based magus work with defences like flamboyant arcana and mirror image, though it's a bit iffy. It's also possible to make a weapon finesse magus without dex to damage and rely more heavily on your spells for damage.
If you want the latter then feats like this could work:
1: weapon finessehuman: enforcer
3: rime spell
Which gets you working by your start level of 3, assuming you take a trait to reduce the cost of metamagic on frostbite. Later on,
5: spell penetration
Magus 5: empower spell
7: elemental spell (electricity)
9: lunge
Could work fairly well IMO. If you don't take hexcrafter then you can use spell recall from L4 to stretch out your number of spells prepared.
When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Dervish Dance probably shouldn't work either, but the wording while a little less prohibitive, is usually taken to mean it works. 4 feats is indeed a steep price, but you do end up with a 1 handed reach weapon you can use with spell combat (assuming your gm is on board), and dex to damage. For some people that might be worth it.
As far as using enforcer goes, it is an excellent was to debuff. You might have a GM not allow frostbite to activate the feat though as it specifies "when you deal non-lethal damage with a melee weapon," Run it by your gm, if they won't let frostbite dealivered via a weapon to count consider the blade of Mercy trait, or gladiator trait as easy ways to make the actual weapon deal non-lethal damage.
One thing I would suggest also considering if you are set on going with a rapier is a dip into inspired swashbuckler. Depending on the expected play it can be a nice way to save some feats and add some good class skills. Also Opportune party and reposte is an easy was to add some attacks.
Another interesting option is to pick up improved unarmed strike either via a feat or class dip, take evil eye as a hex, and then take hex strike evil eye. Then you can apply evil eye watch round you hit with your fist targeting an different penalty in addition to whatever spell you are deliver and enforcer. Again check with your gm though as some will say you don't have the hex class feature prerequisite.
Edit: Another option if you are looking at bladebound specifically for the flavor is be a phantom blade spiritualist. It's a very different build, but if has a phantom weapon in place of a black blade. You get the Spiritualist spell list which is probably inferior to the magus list, but does come with healing spells, plus you start with medium armor and can cast in heavy armor at level 1. It also doesn't limit your weapon to an1 handed piecing or slashing weapon. You could have a phantom weapon Warhammer if you wanted or Dwarven giant sticker {though you probably still want a 1 handed weapon so you can use spell combat).spell
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well truth be told do i really dex to Dmg that bad?
Honestly? No, you don't need it per se.
The Frostbite Magus is primarily a debuffer build. The goal is that any creature you hit will be shaken, entangled, fatigued, and sickened at the same time. That's a very solid pile of penalties right there.
Good suggestions are Cruel weapon (sickens); Disruptive arcana (because they eat penalties to concentration as well); and Chilling Amplification feat (can't 5-step). And if you get to high enough level, Dazing Spell. Maybe something like Dirty Fighting so you can add trips and (blinding) dirty tricks to the mix.
Your damage will be pretty good because of the Black Blade and Frostbite. It won't be excellent but it will still be pretty good; and making your enemies unable to do much is the priotity here.
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Frostbite will very quickly out pace a shocking grasp magus so I would not characterize the build as primarily debuffing. Deliving touch spells synergies with natural attacks and strength really well. Druid can pump out a lot of extra damage using natural attacks and frostbite.
Spells with static damage gain more from empower which comes online a spell level before maximize, meaning the damage is front loaded in the build helping out more a low levels.
Or you could cast a non-touch spell. Sure you don't get the free weapon attack, but you can finish out your Frostbite touches. That would work well with Mirror Image?
Just checking what you mean here. If you cast mirror image - or any spell - your remaining charges of Frostbite disappear.
As a general rule, if your group has a 5 minute adventuring day you're probably better off with Shocking Graspfor damage, if you'd like to conserve spells then Frostbite becomes the better damage option.
Note that eventually Frostbite will outpace Shocking grasp anyway. Intensified Shocking Grasp is 10d6 (~35) damage at level 10, while a level 10 Frostbite is 1d6+10 (~13.5) damage per hit. You only need 3 Frostbites to land at that level to out damage Shocking Grasp, and with Haste on your spell list you can make 3 attacks every round. Frostbite also causes fatigue, and if you're spending a trait and a metamagic feat (the same cost of an Intensified Shocking Grasp) you can add Rime Spell as well. Now you're dealing more damage and adding 2 debuffs to every enemy you hit, and the spell will likely last you 3-5 rounds of combat.
However ...
The downsides of Frostbite are that it's cold damage (more commonly resisted) and that it's non-lethal damage. Having two damage types means that there are two ways for enemies to be immune/resistant to the damage, so the odds of suddey finding your go-to spell useless increase dramatically. This isn't the end of the world as you *should*have other options to get you through the encounter, but it's worth noting.
The other advantage (and disadvantage) of Shocking Grasp is the potential to do spike damage. Sure Frostbite ends up dealing 10d6+100 damage over ~5 rounds, but Shocking Grasp can deal 70 damage in one hit. This means you have ~30% chance of going nova and potentially ending the fight before it begins. This is a slightly double edged sword (if you'll pardon the pun) as you're really relying on those crits to keep the spell relevant as you level up. If you have trouble confirming crits you'll probably prefer Frostbite (I know statistically it shouldn't work this way, but also statistically it will work this way for someone, even if just by coincidence).
Yeah the thing Shocking Grasp does really well is improve crits. As I said I think you have about a 30% chance that any Shocking Grasp will end up a crit (assuming a 15-20 crit range). Any round where that happens you'll thoroughly out damage the Frostbite build.
Also Shocking Grasp comes with that +3 to hit vs metal armed/armoured foes, which helps you hit and confirm those crits.
Really they both have their pros and cons, so do whichever you prefer. They're both good.
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Fatigue and entangle are effectively a +3 to hit for the team.
But it likely means 1 fewer attacks per round. With shocking grasp on rounds you are not casting you are using arcane mark. When you have frostbite up you cannot use arcane mark without losing the spell. This is the single biggest difference between the two builds. People often leave this out of the damage comparisons.
The feats are the same for both builds so you should be packing both spells. The difference is which spells you apply metamagic reduction to. The mathematically sound decision is whichever is more effective in 51% of fights is the better decisions in the games I have played that means frostbite. But when I went up against devils it was all shocking grasp and my wand wielder spells.
Crist are harder math.
Shocking grasp crit is 30% on the first hit, 20ish for a spell crit on the second (30% for the weapon - but there is a chance you don't have a spell to crit with) each adjusted for confirmation chance.
Frostbite have and even 30% changes adjusted for confirmation chance on ever attack. You can't crit 2 or three times a round with frostbite.
CristCrits are harder math.Shocking grasp crit is 30% on the first hit, 20ish for a spell crit on the second (30% for the weapon - but there is a chance you don't have a spell to crit with) each adjusted for confirmation chance.
Because you don't lose the spell on a miss, the maths actually doesn't change much by changing your chance to hit.
If you only hit on a 15+ (30% chance to hit), then every hit it a critical threat. You then confirm on a 15+ (30%), so that means there's a 30% chance your Shocking Grasp is a crit. The 70% chance that you missed is irrelevant since you would just hold your spell for the next attack.
If you hit on a 9+ (60% chance to hit), then half your hits (50%) are critical threats. Of those critical threats 60% of them will confirm, so the equation is 50% × 60% = 30%. Therefore there is a 30% chance that any Shocking Grasp that lands will be a crit. The 40% chance that you missed is irrelevant since you would just hold your spell for the next attack.
If you hit on a 3+ (90% chance to hit), then one third of your hits (33.33%) are critical threats. Of those critical threats 90% of them will confirm, so the equation is 90% × 33.33% = 30%. Therefore there is a 30% chance that any Shocking Grasp that lands will be a crit. The 10% chance that you missed is irrelevant since you would just hold your spell for the next attack.
The only time this changes is when you need higher than a 15 to hit. If you only hit on an 18+ then every hit would be a critical threat, but you'd only confirm on an 18+ (15%), so you'd have a 15% chance to turn that Shocking Grasp into a crit.
Frostbite have and even 30% changes adjusted for confirmation chance on ever attack. You can't crit 2 or three times a round with frostbite.
I mean, you CAN crit that many times, but I wouldn't rely on it.
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Because you don't lose the spell on a miss, the maths actually doesn't change much by changing your chance to hit.
If you only hit on a 15+ (30% chance to hit), then every hit it a critical threat. You then confirm on a 15+ (30%), so that means there's a 30% chance your Shocking Grasp is a crit. The 70% chance that you missed is irrelevant since you would just hold your spell for the next attack.
It actually changes when you hit that is the problem.
If you crit on the first attack you have no chance to crit on the second or third. So you chances are:
30% * chance to hit * chace to confirm. There are three outcomes you have to account for. If you miss on the first attack your next attack has a 30% chances to threaten a crit adjusted for miss. If you hit and don't confirm and you don't crit, you spend the spell and don't have a chance to crit for the rest of the turn. You have to repeat these three options for every consecutive attacks. So, the likelihood of criting on future attacks degrade more the more likely you are to hit and not confirm. Like I said more complicated than people think.
Frostbite have and even 30% changes adjusted for confirmation chance on ever attack. You can't crit 2 or three times a round with frostbite.
I mean, you CAN crit that many times, but I wouldn't rely on it.
You don't rely on it you put it into a DPR calculator and 'rely on it' with the exactly probability of it happening. I 'count on' coin flips with 50% confidence and d20 rolls with 5% confidence.
Because you don't lose the spell on a miss, the maths actually doesn't change much by changing your chance to hit.
If you only hit on a 15+ (30% chance to hit), then every hit it a critical threat. You then confirm on a 15+ (30%), so that means there's a 30% chance your Shocking Grasp is a crit. The 70% chance that you missed is irrelevant since you would just hold your spell for the next attack.
It actually changes when you hit that is the problem.
If you crit on the first attack you have no chance to crit on the second or third.
No it doesn't as log as your chance to hit (on any specific attack) doesn't go below 30%, the chance that the spell will get a crit WHEN IT HITS remains at 30%.
Basically, on any given HIT (not attack) you have a 30% chance that the hit becomes a crit. If you MISS then the spell is not discharged, and it'll stay charged for the next attack. If that attack HITS then there's a 30% chance it becomes a crit. This remains true, even if you have 100 attacks, as long as you don't let your attack roll fall low enough that you miss on a 15.
It doesn't matter how many times you miss, when you eventually DO hit you have a 30% chance to convert to a crit.
As a Magus, you only need to keep it so you hit on a 9+ for this to remain true (not hard to do) until you hit level 15. From level 15 onward you need your first attacks to be hitting on a 4+ to avoid your 3rd iterative attack from falling lower than the 30% confirmation range.
Obviously feats like Critical Focus, or spells like Bless Weapon change these odds fairly dramatically.
I am planning a Blade-bound Magus - love the flavor
Planning a Human one who will start at level 3
and I have a few questions
1: Need to know what all I need for a frost bite build
2: What feats should I plan for a 15 level career ?
3: For My weapon I know I should have one with a high Crit Range But not sure what one
4 any other archetype i should stack on?
i noticed no1 spoke of the one feat you should take at level 15 - spell perfection. (funny thing .even though your spells level max at 6th level the feat still count up to 9th level spells with metamagic applied. allowing you to break that border)
lets look at this very common build -
1: taking one of the traits that let you pick a spell and lower any one metamagic applied to it by one level (but not lower then the spell level itself so no cantrip outa 1st level spells).
then getting empower, quicken and intensify spell metamagics (need 3 metamagic for the spell perfection) and at level 15 getting the spell perfection (shocking grasp).
then your ready all the 1st level shocking grasp spells (that you wanted to set up) as intensified shocking grasp (still 1st level thanks to the trait).
in one round when you full attack (not going into bladed dash here, but learn to use it): 1 swift action to cast quicken intensified shocking grasp - 10d6 added damage to a swift attack, with it's own damage too, not minding crits (with spell perfection negating the quicken meta magic 'without affecting its level or casting time') then in the full round attack you spell combat in an empowered intensified shocking grasp - 15d6 added damage (this time the empowered is negated with spell perfection).
for a total of 25d6 added damage, using only 2 1st level spells out of your daily spells. (i might have done the empowered intensified math wrong might be 12.5d6 for intensified+empowered,not sure)
btw if your comfortable with ranging in a full attack getting spell perfection for disintegrate can do a lot more damage if your can make sure the target won't save - with spell perfection doubling the save dc bonus of spell focus and other such feats etc (again even more with the trait, but mind the 9th level spell limit)
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Mr Charisma you are missing the fact that I am talking about your chance to crit on a turn. Which is the sum of the probabilities of a spell crit on each attack. DPR is what matters not DP on a spell crit.
Let's say you have hit on a 10. Threaten on a 15 plus.
1-10 you have the spell for next turn. (Attack two chance to crit 30% adjusted for accuracy)
11-14 You don't crit. But, you hit so for the remained of the turn you don't get no chance to crit. (All other attacks for the round (0% chance for a spell crit).
15-20 threaten.
- Confirmation roll. 1-10 normal attack no chance for a spell crit for the round.
- Confirmation roll. 11-20 successful crit.
So, there is a 15% chance to confirm the crit. 10% chance to hit and not threaten. And a 15% chance that the threaten and not confirm.
Attack 2: There is a 15% + 10% chance you don't have a spell to threaten with which has to be. So you need two calculations on for no other spell (standard damage calculation found in a dpr cal) the other for spell spell (as above).
It is a branching probability problem.
Mr Charisma you are missing the fact that I am talking about your chance to crit on a turn. Which is the sum of the probabilities of a spell crit on each attack. DPR is what matters not DP on a spell crit.
Let's say you have hit on a
1011. Threaten on a 15 plus.1-10 you have the spell for next turn. (Attack two chance to crit 30% adjusted for accuracy)
11-14 You don't crit. But, you hit so for the remained of the turn you don't get no chance to crit. (All other attacks for the round (0% chance for a spell crit).
15-20 threaten.
- Confirmation roll. 1-10 normal attack no chance for a spell crit for the round.
- Confirmation roll. 11-20 successful crit.So, there is a 15% chance to confirm the crit.
10%20% chance to hit and not threaten. And a 15% chance that the threaten and not confirm.Attack 2: There is a 15% +
10%20% chance you don't have a spell to threaten with which has to be. So you need two calculations on for no other spell (standard damage calculation found in a dpr cal) the other for spell spell (as above).It is a branching probability problem.
Sure, there's a chance you miss entirely, but since you should be able to put out 4 attacks per round pretty consistently by level 8 those numbers don't matter so much - if you hit once your spell goes through, and there's a 30% chance when it does it'll crit. So the spell damage (which is what we were talking about) has that 30% chance to be doubled.
The way to do this would be to work out your regular DPR without the spell (but including the extra attack from spellstrike), then work out your chance to get at least one hit, then multiply the average spell damage (including crit chance) by the chance that you got at least one hit.
For the spell damage, since we know it's a 30% chance to crit (if it hits) you have 70% normal damage + 30% double damage = 130% average damage (if you get at least one hit). So your average Shocking Grasp at 10th level will deal 35 damage, 35 × 1.3 = 45.5 damage. If you have two chances to hit at 11+ that's a 75% chance to hit, so 45.5 × 0.75 = 34.125 (although obviously if you're level 10 you'd have an extra iterative attack).
Here's an actual example: By level 8 - with Haste, Spell-Combat/Strike and an iterative attack - your chance to hit at least once should be close enough go 100%. If you have a 70% chance to hit (which is what you should be aiming for) you're looking at a 98.515% chance to hit at least once . So 28 (8d6) × 1.3 (increase from chance to crit) × 0.98515 (chance to hit at least once) = 35.85946 average damage from Shocking Grasp in a round (this number is of course added to your weapon DPR).
Hmmm... so it looks like Nostia went with Frostbite. Working out DPRwith Frostbite is easier since you add the spell damage to every hit - you just add the spell damage to your weapon damage and do the equation normally.
Another feat I really like for a Magus is Preferred Spell. This lets you prepare all your utility/defence spells, and the convert them spontaneously to Frostbite as needed. With Spell Recall (and Pearls of Power) you can then get your utility/defence spells back if needed as well. This almost gives you the utility of a spontaneous caster with all the benefits of a prepared caster.
Also since I did some spell-damage stuff for Shocking Grasp, and since you're using Frostbite, here's the damage for Frostbite:
Using the same magus I used above (level 8, Haste up, hit on a 7+ with your first 3 attacks) you should average 38.1225 spell-damage in the round you cast it, and 27.6575 in following rounds until it runs out. The spell should last you about 3 rounds (maybe a little more) for an average of over 90 damage per cast. These numbers will be added to your weapon attacks.
Note that since SG is cast every round it also gives you an extra weapon attack, but FB can debuff the enemies fairly heavily, reducing their effectiveness. Also since FB deals more average damage in the round you cast it than SG does at this point you can just cast it every round if you want to keep your DPR up. You'll use more spells, but you'll deal damage more quickly.
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then work out your chance to get at least one hit, then multiply the average spell damage (including crit chance) by the chance that you got at least one hit.
You are treating these as independent probabilities and they are not.
If you miss on attack one, what is you chance to crit with on attack two? 15%
If you hit but don't threaten on attack one what is you likely hood to crit on attack two? 0%
See how there are different? Which number do you use. You can just add the probabilities of dependant variables. You can't assume you have the spell to threaten with equally on each attack because each attack increase both the chance to crit but also your chance to hit without criting. You simply can't assume a 15% confirmed crit for each attack in round. It over estimates damage.
If I have not made the difference clear by now I lack the ability to and dont want to further hijack the thread. Hopefully some finds this helpful.
then work out your chance to get at least one hit, then multiply the average spell damage (including crit chance) by the chance that you got at least one hit.If I have not made the difference clear by now I lack the ability to and dont want to further hijack the thread. Hopefully some finds this helpful.
Fortunately I don't lack the ability, but I agree about hijacking the thread.
I created THIS THREAD to discuss it because I think it's a valuable resource for players.
Feel free to discuss it, if I've made any mistakes or I haven't made the mathematics clear enough please let me know.
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But lets go an extra round.
2nd round: Shocking Grasp performs the same 68 damage.
Frostbite get 2.5 attacks so 5d6+46 for 64 damage. Also your attacks are 2 better to hit since you aren't doing spell combat.
Since your shocking grasp example casts SG each round, then your frostbite build can safely cast FB each round, too. Otherwise your comparison isn't fair.
At level ten you really have sufficient spell slots to do so, and there's pearls of power, and spell recall. Alternatively, on your second round you end with Arcane Mark, then onn your third round, you open with Frostbite again. Note that Frostbite's fatigue means +1 to your next attack, and Rime Spell is another +2 to hit; this helps your subsequent attacks connect! The result, same number of attacks, and instead of adding +10d6 you add +1d6+10 three or four times.
Basically, as soon as Haste becomes a regular buff, Frostbite outdamages Shocking Grasp, and adds a nice debuff to boot.
The best way to use frostbite is with alterself/Monstrous Humanoid to maximize your number of attack per round.
With alterself you can change to a canopy troll for exemple, 4 natural attacks; +1 if you lucky to already have haste at that level. Max: 5 attacks.
With Monstrous Humanoid, there is a few form with 6 natural attacks (4 arms gargoyle is one); +1 from haste and more as your BBA go up.
That way your 1 charge per level are used in 2 round; which mean you can cast each round, frostbite at the start of the first round and another spell at the end of the 2nd round, after the use of your remaining charges.