| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Have you seen what a dragon barbarian does at those levels? He can have a breath weapon (outside the dragon form itself). Yes it uses a class DC, but that is every bit as good as a spell DC.Yes, it's a once per combat ability, rather than once every 1d4 rounds.
For most combats 1d4 rounds is enough for it to be over especially as a barbarian. They do have a way to rage cycle once if they need it again. Of course
the barbarian has his own dragon form he can use anyway without that limitYes the class DC is off 2 for a lot of levels for an Expert spell caster. So you are right to point that out.
Yes the Purple worm and the Phoenix have some good abilities. But you are talking about very high levels there. Have you seen what martials do at those levels? EG Whirlwind Strike which comes in before both of those. Or Impossible Volley, or the extra/free actions they can get for various things from mid level.Yes Martial characters are great at martial things. Not so great at the spells like a Druid is. They get Legendary spell proficiency for a reason.
You are still ignoring the major cost - the 2 actions it takes to get in to the WildShape form.
Its balanced fine.
First, Wild Shape eventually lasts hours and at high levels, permanently. It is also a focus spell and you can easily regain that point.
Thats a level 18 power to do that. So very high level. The level 4 form control forces you into a form that is two spell levels lower - thats a huge limitation.
Again no spellcasting, no manipulate actions at least till higher level forms.
Level 18 and up class powers are spectacular that is the point.
Second, you seem to misunderstand my position. I am against the argument that Battle Forms need item bonuses to "keep up" with martial characters. Druids are spellcasters, not martial characters. Yes battle forms are a martial thing, but there are a myriad of other things available for a druid that they are better at rather than hitting things. They don't need the Item bonuses everyone wants them to have.Here is my chart. Red means the bonus is worse than the granted modifier, Green means it's better. I also included a couple of Martials and the Cleric, so that you can contrast.
If we include the Item bonuses for Druids, they will almost always be better than the granted bonus, and if we take it away they will always be worse.
I make it as equal to or one less. Compared to the normal martials. To my mind that is fair. Martial have a stack of other abilities. If that is what it comes to then we can just agree to disagree. But a loss of an item bonus at high level makes their higher level forms a joke.
I am aware that the druids attack bonus has to be better before they can use the +2 status bonus. Its a complication I'm sure people will forget. But it only worsens the situation for the druid.
The multiclass wildshaper is not a problem. They will have a better to hit, but their Damage and AC will be worse because they are stuck in lower level forms.
Druids are generalists. The don't have the depth of the pure spell casters in terms of pure spell slots. They can do a bit of everything reasonably well. They are not close to the best martial but with the right focus in feats they can be OK, they are not close to the best healer but they can heal, that are not the best arcanist but they can do it. It all depends on the feats they take.
Posting it here just for the record. This is a long look at the rules around Battle Forms, Wild Shape and runs into Additional Damage and Hand Wraps of Mighty Fist .
Ultimately the rules are written in everyday language and if you try to read them precisely you do end up tying yourself in knots. Some things are clear but you do have to make a few judgement calls. Which means people are just going to disagree. Like any other game that allows it, polymorph has the most confusing set of rules in the system.
I have no connection to Paizo. This is just my interpretation. However I have had a really good look at them. No doubt at some point Paizo will make an officical ruling on some of this, and maybe I will need to change.
|
Posting it here just for the record. This is a long look at the rules around Battle Forms, Wild Shape and runs into Additional Damage and Hand Wraps of Mighty Fist .
That is a very good summary of the issues. I don't agree with all of your conclusions but you've done a good job and are clearly trying to be as impartial as possible (often even succeeding :-)).
I think you need to add a couple of things though
1) the balance section also needs to deal with martials multiclassing into druids. At lowish levels 11-) this is probably where the biggest balance issues are.
2) the dragon transformation spell explicitly states that rage damage stacks while wild shaped. Either that is completely redundant OR it strongly implies that rage damage does NOT normally stack.
Posting it here just for the record. This is a long look at the rules around Battle Forms, Wild Shape and runs into Additional Damage and Hand Wraps of Mighty Fist .
That is a very good summary of the issues. I don't agree with all of your conclusions but you've done a good job and are clearly trying to be as impartial as possible (often even succeeding :-)).
There are too many fuzzy interpretations happening here, and it makes a big difference to how you build a wildshape druid so I'd like to know. Hopefully if I have something wrong it will get straightened out.
I think you need to add a couple of things though
1) the balance section also needs to deal with martials multiclassing into druids. At lowish levels 11-) this is probably where the biggest balance issues are.
There is a lesser balance problem here as the lower level battle form spells do scale a little, even if access to the better forms is at half rate. But when you think about the lower AC, the level appropriate runes an equvalent weapon would have. It doesn't seem too bad.
2) the dragon transformation spell explicitly states that rage damage stacks while wild shaped. Either that is completely redundant OR it strongly implies that rage damage does NOT normally stack.Yep but what do you? The statements from Mark was very forceful. I just have to assume its redundant.
No book of the size of the CRB is perfect.
|
|
There is a lesser balance problem here as the lower level battle form spells do scale a little, even if access to the better forms is at half rate. But when you think about the lower AC, the level appropriate runes an equvalent weapon would have. It doesn't seem too bad.
I disagree. At levels 11- I think a martial arguably gets too much for 2 feats IF they can get the bonus to hit from handwraps. A +2 to hit for a martial is big.
At any rate, I think this point should be at least mentioned in your attempt to be impartial.
2) the dragon transformation spell explicitly states that rage damage stacks while wild shaped. Either that is completely redundant OR it strongly implies that rage damage does NOT normally stack.
Yep but what do you? The statements from Mark was very forceful. I just have to assume its redundant.
No book of the size of the CRB is perfect.
I have a great deal of respect for Mark but I don't think we can take his comments in a fairly obscure thread as official rules clarifications.
I have a great deal of respect for Mark but I don't think we can take his comments in a fairly obscure thread as official rules clarifications.
This seemed to be confirmed by a few people who have spoken with Mark. I just provided an instance where it occured on the forum.
Well where else to we go? Official errata seems to be delayed and probably would not fix everything anyway.
Paizo seems to have a policy of letting everyone read the rules in their own way. That is, not declaring one official interpretation but encouraging flexibilty and different groups just doing what they want.
The issue is that we don't have a strong definition of the attack and damage formula to precisely define what additional damage is. It is central to understanding a number of rules problems.
I want to play the game. I don't want to wait another year for a clarification that may never come.
There is a lesser balance problem here as the lower level battle form spells do scale a little, even if access to the better forms is at half rate. But when you think about the lower AC, the level appropriate runes an equvalent weapon would have. It doesn't seem too bad.
I disagree. At levels 11- I think a martial arguably gets too much for 2 feats IF they can get the bonus to hit from handwraps. A +2 to hit for a martial is big.
At any rate, I think this point should be at least mentioned in your attempt to be impartial.
Fair call. I do mention it as a strong option elswhere. I'll put some more wording in.
It is a bit more damage.But a martial will likely be getting a +1 status bonus from somewhere else. Two action to get into shape is a cost. Fighters have problems with weapon groups, so if they focus on unarmed combat they lose elsewhere (there are a few ways around that). Its still a very strong option for levels 10-11. I'm not really concerned about other levels.
|
|
I want to play the game. I don't want to wait another year for a clarification that may never come.
I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, a lot of my play is in PFS and the lack of clarity hurts a great deal there.
How Wild Shape works is well enough defined for my casters who dabble in wild shape. But it isn't really well enough defined for me to be willing to play a martial who wild shapes. Too much discussion required, too much chance of my character bring severely impacted by a GM.
I want to play the game. I don't want to wait another year for a clarification that may never come.
I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, a lot of my play is in PFS and the lack of clarity hurts a great deal there.
How Wild Shape works is well enough defined for my casters who dabble in wild shape. But it isn't really well enough defined for me to be willing to play a martial who wild shapes. Too much discussion required, too much chance of my character bring severely impacted by a GM.
Which is why I am trying to push this a bit. To tease an interpretation off someone official or even just have someone point out something that will provide more clarity.
Is there an official PFS position on any of this?
Hello, sorry if that's a bit necroposting, but I would like to point out something about the Handwraps of Mighty Blows with Wild Shape.
It's noted in the Polymorph trait that "the constant abilities of your gear still function". Doesn't that count for Striking runes? If it doesn't, what kind of abilities can function from the gear?
Thanks for your replies.
If you were wearing a Bracelet of Dashing you might still benefit from the +1 item bonus to Acrobatics checks (unless that is one of the stats of the polymorph form that you used) because that is a permanent function of the gear. But you wouldn't be able to use the activated ability to gain a +10 bonus to your speed.
The argument against allowing the Striking runes is because the battle form polymorph spells list out the damage that they deal. And it scales with level already. So adding additional damage dice on top of the already appropriate damage that the form is dealing is quite a bit too much.
Also it becomes rather strange to calculate. The Striking runes are put on weapons that only deal one die of damage to begin with. What does a Striking rune do when applied to an attack that does 3d6 damage?
I see. And to reply to your question, I was thinking about using the cat form of Wild Shape at level 4 with the Handwraps of Mighty Blows +1 striking to get an agile attack dealing 2d10 instead of 1d10 damage, if it was possible.
I see. Well, too bad, I thought that it was possible to improve the animal form's unarmed attacks. Thanks for your replies.
If you were wearing a Bracelet of Dashing you might still benefit from the +1 item bonus to Acrobatics checks (unless that is one of the stats of the polymorph form that you used) because that is a permanent function of the gear. But you wouldn't be able to use the activated ability to gain a +10 bonus to your speed.
I agree up to here.
The argument against allowing the Striking runes is because the battle form polymorph spells list out the damage that they deal. And it scales with level already. So adding additional damage dice on top of the already appropriate damage that the form is dealing is quite a bit too much.
Your logic diverges here. Striking runes affect the number of weapon damage dice. Handwraps of Mighty Blows extend weapon damage dice to unarmed attacks not just weapons. But the number of damage dice for an attack is one of the specifics of each battle form spell. So it is not allowed to be changed.
Additional Damage is something else. It would be nice if it was properly defined in the rules but as far as I can tell runes like Flaming and Shocking will work on Handwraps even in wild shape forms.
Also it becomes rather strange to calculate. The Striking runes are put on weapons that only deal one die of damage to begin with. What does a Striking rune do when applied to an attack that does 3d6 damage?
Agreed it becomes undefined as they have carefully limited other options to single dice. It would require a GM call if this was the case.
I see. Well, too bad, I thought that it was possible to improve the animal form's unarmed attacks. Thanks for your replies.
If your GM allows your table can simply ignore the restriction in non-PFS games (homebrew).
Currently many players consider Battle Forms in general subpar compared to martials class. So add item bonus to attack rolls isn't really such a bad.
Just read through 71 posts hoping against hope that there would be an official clarification at the end this time.
Every bit as elusive as the Leprechaun's gold at the end of the rainbow.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well we have had a few clarifications in that time to be fair
1) item bonuses to hit with handwraps do count when working out your unarmed attack modifier
2) You can now do all your athletics checks in wild shape.
3) Additional Damage is not Bonus Damage - not that we know what that means because
We still don't have a defined damage equation. In particular these terms show up in rules and we don't know what they are:
a) Unarmed Attack Bonus
b) Damage Instance
c) Additional Damage
d) Extra Damage
e) Damage Bonus
We have to rely on natural langauge and it is just not clear.
If you were wearing a Bracelet of Dashing you might still benefit from the +1 item bonus to Acrobatics checks (unless that is one of the stats of the polymorph form that you used) because that is a permanent function of the gear. But you wouldn't be able to use the activated ability to gain a +10 bonus to your speed.
I agree up to here.
The argument against allowing the Striking runes is because the battle form polymorph spells list out the damage that they deal. And it scales with level already. So adding additional damage dice on top of the already appropriate damage that the form is dealing is quite a bit too much.
Your logic diverges here. Striking runes affect the number of weapon damage dice. Handwraps of Mighty Blows extend weapon damage dice to unarmed attacks not just weapons. But the number of damage dice for an attack is one of the specifics of each battle form spell. So it is not allowed to be changed.
Additional Damage is something else. It would be nice if it was properly defined in the rules but as far as I can tell runes like Flaming and Shocking will work on Handwraps even in wild shape forms.
Also it becomes rather strange to calculate. The Striking runes are put on weapons that only deal one die of damage to begin with. What does a Striking rune do when applied to an attack that does 3d6 damage?Agreed it becomes undefined as they have carefully limited other options to single dice. It would require a GM call if this was the case.
I've been reading up on this in the new player core and here is a read on it that I don't think I've seen before.
Using Dinosaur Form as an example:The spell calls out you get statistics and abilities separately. Breaking out the unique dinosaur ABILITIES from the core AC, Attack, Damage, Temp HP and Athletics (implying that these are instead the "SPECIAL STATISTICS" mentioned in Battle Form under polymorph rules on page 301).
Now, Striking rune specifically says increases weapon damage dice from 1 to 2. So anything already doing 2 weapon dice (regardless of if its 2d4 or 3d8) would be unaffected by a striking rune. But, for instance a Deinonychus tail or T-rex Bite would indeed be affected since they are abilities with a single weapon damage die. Of course, as soon as this is heightened, this would no longer apply. I would also say this makes sense, because a T-rex has the deadly d12 trait, which is modifiable by striking runes.
This would also mean that since Speed is an ability instead of a special statistic, it could be modified by items that enhance that.
|
Well we have had a few clarifications in that time to be fair
1) item bonuses to hit with handwraps do count when working out your unarmed attack modifier
2) You can now do all your athletics checks in wild shape.
3) Additional Damage is not Bonus Damage - not that we know what that means becauseWe still don't have a defined damage equation. In particular these terms show up in rules and we don't know what they are:
a) Unarmed Attack Bonus
b) Damage Instance
c) Additional Damage
d) Extra Damage
e) Damage BonusWe have to rely on natural langauge and it is just not clear.
Additional damage is always explicit AFAICT. As in, this effect "deals xx additional damage".
It is not Damage bonus, so it does not adjust the special statistics of the battle form, ie you do not add it to the battle form's damage. Which is consistent with the wording of the Dragon Transformation Barbarian feat, which explicitly "adds the extra damage from Rage". Note that extra damage is used here instead of Additional damage.
Damage bonus is always explicit too. We see it all the time. It's just that usually it is worded as a typed bonus to damage rolls, ie circumstance bonus, item bonus, status bonus. For example, Courageous Anthem gives a +1 status bonus to damage rolls. That is a prime example of damage bonus.
And, just like other bonuses, we know only circumstance and status bonuses apply here.
Extra damage is also explicit, as in Sneak Attack. Since it is not a damage bonus, it does not adjust the special statistics of the battle form, same as Additional damage.
Tldr: only circumstance or status bonus to damage adds to a Battle Form's damage.
Are we starting a yearly tradition to revive this thread? If so, you missed 2024.