|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Going off the original “fall asleep for 8 hours immediately after” meant that pretty much all Revelations except for 3* were useless** for the Oracle to cast since they were buffs or took multiple Actions, so there’s absolutely no reason to cast them.
*Delay Affliction (but you’ve only delayed the other person’s problem, and given them the additional problem of having to literally carry you for the next 8 hours), Debilitating Dichotomy, or Whirling Flames.
**Incendiary Aura technically stays up even if you’re unconscious, but asking your party members to shoot fireballs at you while you’re out doesn’t sound like a sound strategy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Delay Affliction should really get swapped with something else anyways.
It's too niche of a spell for how recyclable focus spells are, especially for Oracles who are designed to be cycling around pretty frequently.
In a playtest one shot our Oracle would just cast delay affliction twice on a random person for no benefit in order to get into his moderate curse so he could boost his healing.
Delay Affliction should really get swapped with something else anyways.
It's too niche of a spell for how recyclable focus spells are, especially for Oracles who are designed to be cycling around pretty frequently.
In a playtest one shot our Oracle would just cast delay affliction twice on a random person for no benefit in order to get into his moderate curse so he could boost his healing.
Did he pick harm domain?
Death domain and yes but healing domain wouldn't have really helped.
Healer's Blessing has the same problem of not really doing all that much on its own or being really worth an action in combat.
Replace Delay Affliction with Restoration but now it takes a single action to cast.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We don't have a final mechanic for this, but it's clear that the unconscious option isn't working, so it's right out! Our design conversations are ongoing about what mechanic we want to put in its place.
Might I suggest that doing a Hail Mary shuts off the oracle's spellcasting for a set period?
Like, they draw on their conduit too much and burn it out for a while.
That way, the price is stiff (your spellcaster can't cast spells until they have time to recover), but the player can still have their character do stuff in the context of the game.
We don't have a final mechanic for this, but it's clear that the unconscious option isn't working, so it's right out! Our design conversations are ongoing about what mechanic we want to put in its place.Might I suggest that doing a Hail Mary shuts off the oracle's spellcasting for a set period?
Like, they draw on their conduit too much and burn it out for a while.
That way, the price is stiff (your spellcaster can't cast spells until they have time to recover), but the player can still have their character do stuff in the context of the game.
Just make sure that the hail mary is a proper hail mary. If we're working on the power at a price angle I want a huge desperation option at the cost of my spellcasting. As of now there's not really a good hail mary in the revelation spells I can find.
Just make sure that the hail mary is a proper hail mary. If we're working on the power at a price angle I want a huge desperation option at the cost of my spellcasting. As of now there's not really a good hail mary in the revelation spells I can find.We don't have a final mechanic for this, but it's clear that the unconscious option isn't working, so it's right out! Our design conversations are ongoing about what mechanic we want to put in its place.Might I suggest that doing a Hail Mary shuts off the oracle's spellcasting for a set period?
Like, they draw on their conduit too much and burn it out for a while.
That way, the price is stiff (your spellcaster can't cast spells until they have time to recover), but the player can still have their character do stuff in the context of the game.
Well, there is a balance tough. Make the effect too huge and the player starts using it at the end of every day,rather than as a desperation move. It needs to be a "tip the scales" kind of thing.
Well, there is a balance tough. Make the effect too huge and the player starts using it at the end of every day,rather than as a desperation move. It needs to be a "tip the scales" kind of thing.Just make sure that the hail mary is a proper hail mary. If we're working on the power at a price angle I want a huge desperation option at the cost of my spellcasting. As of now there's not really a good hail mary in the revelation spells I can find.We don't have a final mechanic for this, but it's clear that the unconscious option isn't working, so it's right out! Our design conversations are ongoing about what mechanic we want to put in its place.Might I suggest that doing a Hail Mary shuts off the oracle's spellcasting for a set period?
Like, they draw on their conduit too much and burn it out for a while.
That way, the price is stiff (your spellcaster can't cast spells until they have time to recover), but the player can still have their character do stuff in the context of the game.
Honestly the "use it every day" thing might not be the worst. Oracle needs something to make it worthwhile compared to cleric and now that its customization heaven has been thrown out the window and Cleric gets more spells known and per day than an Oracle I feel letting them have one big blast when they're just done with everything is a something notable.
Sure one hypernova at the end of the day will probably not stand up as well to Cleric's raw spellpower, but if PF1 taught me anything it's that Oracles need as many unique tricks to them as they can muster in order to keep up with Cleric knowing almost every spell on the list that the two classes share.
I'm in favor of Doomed, and/or a mystery specific burst mechanic (like how each stage has a more intense effect, the final one could be sudden, and even more severe)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just make sure that the hail mary is a proper hail mary. If we're working on the power at a price angle I want a huge desperation option at the cost of my spellcasting. As of now there's not really a good hail mary in the revelation spells I can find.We don't have a final mechanic for this, but it's clear that the unconscious option isn't working, so it's right out! Our design conversations are ongoing about what mechanic we want to put in its place.Might I suggest that doing a Hail Mary shuts off the oracle's spellcasting for a set period?
Like, they draw on their conduit too much and burn it out for a while.
That way, the price is stiff (your spellcaster can't cast spells until they have time to recover), but the player can still have their character do stuff in the context of the game.
i strongly disagree, a hail mary is only a hail mary if you're unsure if you'll benefit.
mind you none of the life focus spells are worth it at all, but say a fire mystery oracle can do 2d6 damage per spell level to multiple enemies, which might be able to kill the big bad or enough of the minions or make a difference.
life oracle should have a focus spell that gives people fast healing and other ways of healing without specific effort on the oracle's part, otherwise their abilities will almost always go wasted.
I think that if Oracle is supposed to have a hail mary (which I'm neither for or against, to be honest), it ought to be something that takes them out of the fight but doesn't take them out of the game. Losing your spellcasting seems fine at a glance at least.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe overdoing it on the curse could kill the oracle, and then the mechanical reward is getting to roll up a divine sorcerer?
Maybe overdoing it on the curse could kill the oracle, and then the mechanical reward is getting to roll up a divine sorcerer?
I can’t figure out who that jab is aimed at, or if it even is a jab in the first place.
Designer
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Delay Affliction should really get swapped with something else anyways.
It's too niche of a spell for how recyclable focus spells are, especially for Oracles who are designed to be cycling around pretty frequently.
In a playtest one shot our Oracle would just cast delay affliction twice on a random person for no benefit in order to get into his moderate curse so he could boost his healing.
I'm definitely hearing this - it's not the right spell for that role. We're working on it!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm definitely hearing this - it's not the right spell for that role. We're working on it!Delay Affliction should really get swapped with something else anyways.
It's too niche of a spell for how recyclable focus spells are, especially for Oracles who are designed to be cycling around pretty frequently.
In a playtest one shot our Oracle would just cast delay affliction twice on a random person for no benefit in order to get into his moderate curse so he could boost his healing.
Restoration as a 2 action spell? Pretty please?
I think it's a jab at me. >.>Maybe overdoing it on the curse could kill the oracle, and then the mechanical reward is getting to roll up a divine sorcerer?I can’t figure out who that jab is aimed at, or if it even is a jab in the first place.
It was meant to be a light one. I'm in the camp that would either like to see penalties softened, or the bonuses increased to make the penalties more appealing.
Now that it's been made clear the logic was in favor of having the Divine Sorcerer as an option for those who wanted an oracle-like feel without the curse, I've honestly switched sides to merely wanting the bonuses and thematic imagery of the mystery/curses increased, rather than the curse to go away, since it now serves a clear and excellent purpose to provide players with a fun "power at a price" type character (bonus because you don't have to be evil like in many settings!)
The price should still include some serious power, though, for the penalties to be worth it.
|
|
While there is a disconnect since most of the Focus spells are buffs and therefore can’t actually benefit you or others if you fall unconscious you have two good blast Foci you can use.
It’s getting harder to continue to comment on this though since they’ve already stated they’re getting rid of the 8 hour unconscious drawback.
It's really funny to see people discussing about the hail Mary stuff as if it was an actual thing.
OK, so let's assume you're a battle oracle. Do you want to fall unconscious to give a +2 init to everyone else, because you entered fight at max curse for some reason and you're so useless as a caster, you think a +2 init to everyone else will be more useful than your whole presence during the fight? Or maybe you prefer to get a +2 to a save, and whatever the result is you fall unconscious anyway? Or you want to get a new fighter feat, and fall unconscious before you can use it?
You're a life oracle, do you want to remove a condition on an ally for one hour, so your party has to handle you instead of your ally (and one hour latter they have to handle both)? Or maybe you want to cast a life link that ends immediately? Or you think you'll be more useful as a literal object of healing, because an ally is dying and you don't have any more heal but he will have the time to move close to you and interact with you for 15 hp - and those 15 hp will save the day? Note: 15hp is at level 6, but at higher level it's even worse - eg at 13th it's 25 hp.
This hail mary stuff doesn't exist because the revelations effects are lame, and none of them can save any situation. The effects aren't "you shout 'you shall not pass' and your enemy falls into a bottomless pit - even if he can fly", the effects are more like "if an ally spend actions to interact with your body he gains 15 hp lol" - and that's when the effect isn't negated by your unconsciousness.
You could use Flame Barrier to save the fighter’s life for a round so he can finish the fight. Or rebuke death to get him and the rogue both back into it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To make things clear I was talking about the hail mary thing as if the oracle had an additional explosion when they went down, the focus spells are not and should not be the hail mary.
No need to multiclass--you can get rebuke death or flame barrier from Domain Fluency at level 12.You could use Flame Barrier to save the fighter’s life for a round so he can finish the fight. Or rebuke death to get him and the rogue both back into it.Awesome. So the hail mary stuff works only if you multiclass to get some actual focus powers.Awesome; so that's a level 1 ability that is useful during less than half of a campaign. And only if you take the appropriate feat.
To make things clear I was talking about the hail mary thing as if the oracle had an additional explosion when they went down, the focus spells are not and should not be the hail mary.A divine class whose signature ability is an explosive belt... No, thanks.
Fire ray is available at level 1.
A last ditch contingency is not something that is necessary for all twenty levels. The feature can act like a cap until you get a revelation spell worth overspending for. But, if you want an option 1-20, go flame.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A divine class whose signature ability is an explosive belt... No, thanks.
thank god, someone else understands why i don't think hail mary should be a thing.
|
|
No need to multiclass--you can get rebuke death or flame barrier from Domain Fluency at level 12.You could use Flame Barrier to save the fighter’s life for a round so he can finish the fight. Or rebuke death to get him and the rogue both back into it.Awesome. So the hail mary stuff works only if you multiclass to get some actual focus powers.
Having to rely on poaching abilities from other classes isn't much better in that regard.
Having to rely on poaching abilities from other classes isn't much better in that regard.No need to multiclass--you can get rebuke death or flame barrier from Domain Fluency at level 12.You could use Flame Barrier to save the fighter’s life for a round so he can finish the fight. Or rebuke death to get him and the rogue both back into it.Awesome. So the hail mary stuff works only if you multiclass to get some actual focus powers.
I honestly think we're going to see more and more of this happen honestly, as time goes on.
do we need 3 spells that would do effectively the same thing but have a different name for a new class?
|
|
Having to rely on poaching abilities from other classes isn't much better in that regard.No need to multiclass--you can get rebuke death or flame barrier from Domain Fluency at level 12.You could use Flame Barrier to save the fighter’s life for a round so he can finish the fight. Or rebuke death to get him and the rogue both back into it.Awesome. So the hail mary stuff works only if you multiclass to get some actual focus powers.I honestly think we're going to see more and more of this happen honestly, as time goes on.
do we need 3 spells that would do effectively the same thing but have a different name for a new class?
I rather have 3 different spells.
Having to rely on poaching abilities from other classes isn't much better in that regard.No need to multiclass--you can get rebuke death or flame barrier from Domain Fluency at level 12.You could use Flame Barrier to save the fighter’s life for a round so he can finish the fight. Or rebuke death to get him and the rogue both back into it.Awesome. So the hail mary stuff works only if you multiclass to get some actual focus powers.
That is not poaching from other classes.
DOMAIN FLUENCY feat 12
ORACLE
You command a deep understanding of the divine domains related to your mystery. Choose one of the domains associated with your mystery for which you have an initial domain spell. You gain an advanced domain spell from that domain, which you can cast as a revelation spell.
Life oracle has access to the healing domain focus spells, and Rebuke Death is its advanced spell. Flames oracle has access to the fire barrier focus spells, and Flame Barrier is its advanced spell.
Domains are from the Cleric and are tied to Deities.
That is irrelevant. Divine spells are also associated with deities. Think of how many spells are shared among two or more magic traditions. Having a tie to a category does not make it thematically exclusive to that category. The mysteries give some domain spells to oracles; therefore, oracles do not need to multiclass to acquire them.
Anyway, I compiled a full list.
Battle oracle could have access to the following revelation spells:
Revelation Spells initial: call to arms; advanced: battlefield persistence; greater: heroic feat
Might domain spells initial: athletic rush; advanced: enduring might
Zeal domain spells inital: initial: weapon surge; advanced: zeal for battle
Athletic rush, enduring might, and weapon surge are useless if the oracle falls unconscious. Zeal for battle is is redundant against call to arms. Battle oracles lack any hail mary plays.
Flames oracle could have access to the following revelation spells:
Revelation Spells initial: incendiary aura; advanced: whirling flames; greater: flaming fusillade
Fire domain spells initial: fire ray; advanced: flame barrier
Sun domain spells initial: dazzling flash; advanced: positive luminance
Fire ray, flame barrier, and dazzling flash could work as hail mary plays. Positive luminance requires a Dismiss a Spell action, which an unconscious oracle cannot perform.
Life oracle could have access to the following revelation spells:
Revelation Spells initial: delay affliction; advanced: life link; greater: healing form
Death domain spells initial death’s call; advanced: eradicate undeath
Healing domain spells initial healer’s blessing; advanced: rebuke death
Death's call buffs the oracle's hit points, rather lackluster if unconscious. Healer's blessing could enhance healing while the oracle is unconscious, but someone else will have to do the healing. Eradicate undeath and rebuke death could work as hail mary plays.
The initial revelation spell and one initial domain spell are free. The rest have to be purchased with class feats.
The Vision of Weakness oracle feat 4 can also buy the vision of weakness oracle focus spell as a revelation spell. This spell gives knowledge, which would be useless if the oracle immediately falls unconscious. The Diverse Mystery oracle feat 16 lets the oracle learn a revelation focus spell from another mystery. The Paradoxical Mystery oracle feat 20 lets the oracle learn any domain spells as a revelation focus spell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Domains are from the Cleric and are tied to Deities.That is irrelevant.It is relevant, you just kinda missed the point.
I want Oracles to have their own stuff, not just take stuff from the Cleric (and preferably not have to deal with deities).
I like oracles having their own stuff, too. In PF1 the fun of the oracles was the unique style their revelations gave them.
The two PF1 oracles that I have seen at many levels, battle oracle Anastasia and time oracle Amaya, had their own styles that were not like a cleric. Anastasia was a self-buffing melee fighter, who could afford time to buff because her War Sight and Surprising Charge revelations let her get to the front line in time. Amaya darted around the battlefield protected by Time Flicker and Time Hop. She was the lady who wasn't there. The PF1 revelations were powerful: the good ones were twice as strong as a feat. They were strong enough to reshape the class and make the mystery the key to the oracle's style.
However, look at the PF2 oracle's revelation spells. They seldom feel unique and they are no stronger than domain spells of their level. Call to arms and battlefield persistance feel a lot like zeal domain spells. Heroic domain borrows fighter feats. Incendiary aura and whirling flames do fire damage, like a lot of other spells. Flaming fusillade does have a unique feel as a cantrip-enhancing spell. Delay affliction and lifelink feel like general-purpose divine spells rather than something special to the life mystery. I admit that healing form does feel like a life mystery spell. It copies the PF1 Energy Body revelation.
PF1 life mystery had Delay Affliction as an immediate action: fail a save against an affliction, slap a bandaid on it, keep going, and try to treat it later. PF2 life mystery's Delay Afflication is more flexible, since it can target other people, but it takes 2 actions to cast and requires a counteract check against the afflictions DC. It is not "treat it later;" rather, it is a weak form of "treat it now." The PF1 version has a mystery style to it.
I don't see the PF2 oracle's Mystery Benefit and Revelation Spells having the impact of the PF1 oracle's revelations. I would happily dump all the domain spells given to the PF2 oracle if the revelation side of the class was given extra style and power to make up for the loss. But right now, all I can hope for is that with more focus spells borrowed from domains, maybe the PF2 oracle can have the advantage of the right spell at the right time. That fits the mythological oracle's foresight.
The battle mystery's Mystery Benefit is nice, because it grants enough proficiency to make the battle oracle a melee combatant. But the fire mystery merely gives a better Reflex save. The life mystery grants extra hit points that will be drained away by the associated curse.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
More I think about more I find it to be really big problem that oracle's curse is by default "off" until revelation spells are cast <_< Like during that 3 hours short playtest, oracle's curse never appeared in play due to player just not ever casting revelation spells.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How about "Casting a Revelation spell when your curse is at its worst gives you Doomed 1 if you are at your moderate curse and Doomed 2 when you're at your extreme curse."
Yes, THIS I can get behind, Doomed X where X is the stage of the curse. Maybe Stunned for the rest of the round as well unless the Oracle succeeds at a flat check to "shake it off" as well?
Regarding the curses, I agree the curse should be always on, like before, but I am also one of those who thinks the curse should grow stronger as the Oracle gains power. Make Revelation spells Focus spells like everyone else has, pool and all, and instead as the Oracle grows in power, the curse gets stronger in stages, from minor, to lesser, to moderate, to greater, to extreme, or something like that. Instead of the Major Curse and Extreme Curse abilities and the Advanced Revelation, Greater Revelation, and Blaze of Revelation feats as written, why not just have the curse grow stronger in stages and each stage gives the Oracle access to a new Revelation spell, as well as unique abilities tied to the curse. Then maybe a Lessen Curse feat that allows the Oracle to spend a focus point to reduce the effects of the curse by one stage (can not be reduced below Minor) and increases Focus pool by one, and another to Abate Curse that allows the Oracle to reduce the curse to minor or even turn if off completely for one minute at the cost of one Focus point, and increase the Focus pool by one. I would also like to see a Share Burden feat that allows the Oracle to "bestow" part of the curse to another character, with a save where Success bestows one stage and reduces the Oracle's curse on herself by one, and a Critical Success by reduces it by two levels and gives the target two levels of the curse, and a critical failure effects the Oracle as if she overcast (Stunned and Doomed, for example).
Yes, this would mean the curse if always on, and always at its highest point unless they spend Focus points to reduce it. This also means they have to choose, spend a Focus point to cast that spell? Or reduce the curse effects?
And yes, this is a throwback to how it was in P1, and yeah, the way the curses are written now, the extreme version is major suck without some balance in what good comes out of it, but considering you wouldn't be under the effect of the extreme curse until higher levels when you can actually deal with it, maybe not so bad after all.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, and regarding bringing back some of the old curses:
For Haunted, we applied a -5 penalty to the Oracle's Move Silently skill, and her DC to maintain Concentration when someone attempted to disrupt her castings increased by 5 due to the voices around her trying to distract her. The first time we had an Oracle in P1, it was my character, a Vistani fortune teller Oracle/Harrower who wore her money as jewelry all over her person, bracelets, earrings, rings, chain belts, necklaces, etc., and the "spirits" that guided her fortunes were always playing with the jewelry to get her attention, and playing tricks on her by moving items around when she got too near them (more than one time she "accidentally" sat on the floor instead of the chair). Although this came in handy when for effect once when she spoke an omen and tossed her cards to have them fly around her in a whirlwind (a thematic effect of her casting Blade Barrier around herself).
Basically, Haunted should mean you have an unfriendly poltergeist attached to you and it follows you every where, feeding on your power. As you get stronger, so does it, but you learn to "cope" with it by channeling its energies into something useful.
Hmm..now that I think of it, I like the notion of taking the spirit's noise effect and for one round abating it by channeling it as a sonic attack somewhere else ;-)
Oh, forgot one thing: my DM ruled that the level one "gift" she got for being Haunted was she was immune to the Silence spell since the curse was a supernatural effect and the "spirits" making all that noise around her couldn't be Silenced; yay, can't be stopped from using verbal components for spells, but DAMNED when the rest of my group was able to hide from that dragon and little ol' me sat there trying to be still while sounding like the world's largest wind chimes.
Maybe for P2 she could use the Abate Curse feat I suggested to quiet the spirits, but Abate Curse should mean if you turn it off, you can't use any of the gifts it gives you either. You should have to take the bad with the good, but I DO like the idea of using an action to "suppress" the negative effects for one round like the currently written Major Curse effect for the Flames Mystery (spend an action to quiet the poltergeist for one round so you can act without interference)
And I will shut up now and wait for someone to tear my ideas apart ;-P