Sun Blade Confusion


Rules Discussion

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Sun Blade says to make a Ranged Spell Attack. But also says on a Critical you deal double damage, on a failure you still do Full Damage so does Sun Blade just deal automatic damage and your just rolling to see if you Crit? Or was it supposed to be a Save?

Designer

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Yeah that failure should be success, otherwise if you succeed, you actually do nothing.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Thank you for the clarification good sir!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Dang it, there goes my plan of dumping my CHA for fun and profit.

Sovereign Court

Where is Sun Blade? I see Sun Burst in the core rulebook, but no Sun Blade. Is it in one of the supplements?


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Samurai wrote:
Where is Sun Blade? I see Sun Burst in the core rulebook, but no Sun Blade. Is it in one of the supplements?

Yes it's in the Lost Omens Character Guide.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Yeah that failure should be success, otherwise if you succeed, you actually do nothing.

I wonder if there could be a spot where all rules questions that have been answered by Devs can be compiled.

They usually get lost in Forums.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Yeah that failure should be success, otherwise if you succeed, you actually do nothing.

Obviously not to argue with a designer, but does that mean that if I critically succeed with a Polar Ray I do nothing, as it doesn't specifically say what happens? Because that's how people will interpret your post.

Quote:

POLAR RAY SPELL 8

COLD EVOCATION
Traditions arcane, primal
Cast [two‑actions] somatic, verbal
Range 120 feet; Targets 1 creature or object
You fire a blue-white ray of freezing air and swirling sleet from
your finger that can chill your target to the bones. You must
succeed at a spell attack roll to affect the target, which then
takes 10d8 cold damage and is drained 2.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d8.

My understanding was that ALL Spell Attack Rolls operate under the Crit = Double Damage, Success = Listed Damage, Failure and Crit Failure = Miss, unless the spell specifically states otherwise. The Spell Attack Roll sidebar says that they are the same as other attack rolls.

Silver Crusade

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If it's an attack and says nothing you use the four degrees.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The CRB says:

Quote:
If a feat, magic item, spell, or other effect does not list a critical success or critical failure, treat is as an ordinary success or failure instead.

So Polar Ray does normal damage on a critical success, but doesn't gain any bonuses.

Silver Crusade

Squiggit wrote:

The CRB says:

Quote:
If a feat, magic item, spell, or other effect does not list a critical success or critical failure, treat is as an ordinary success or failure instead.
So Polar Ray does normal damage on a critical success, but doesn't gain any bonuses.

*scratches chin*

Huh.

I was probably thinking of saves then.


Squiggit wrote:

The CRB says:

Quote:
If a feat, magic item, spell, or other effect does not list a critical success or critical failure, treat is as an ordinary success or failure instead.
So Polar Ray does normal damage on a critical success, but doesn't gain any bonuses.

That would be my guess, yes. Hydraulic Push for instance spells out it's effects on a success and critical success.

CRB PG. 305 "Spell Attacks" wrote:


Some spells require you to succeed at a spell attack roll
to affect the target. This is usually because they require
you to precisely aim a ray or otherwise make an accurate
attack. A spell attack roll is compared to the target’s AC.
Spell attack rolls benefit from any bonuses or penalties to
attack rolls, including your multiple attack penalty, but not
any special benefits or penalties that apply only to weapon
or unarmed attacks. Spell attacks don’t deal any damage
beyond what’s listed in the spell description.

In rare cases, a spell might have you make some other
type of attack, such as a weapon Strike. Such attacks use
the normal rules and attack bonus for that type of attack.


The reason why it works out like that is that "double damage on a critical success" is not a property of attacks in general. It is a property of the Strike action, and spells usually don't make Strikes. Those that do usually do it indirectly, by summoning something that Strikes the target (e.g. spiritual weapon).

Design-wise, it also opens up the design space of having spells that do something else on a critical hit, like debuff the target.

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