Hi All,
GM has given permission for my PC to be a Half-Dwarf, using the human base stats, and having access to Dwarf and Human racial feats. We will start at level 1, but this is the build I am planning out. Any suggestions on general and skill feats, as well as suggested tweaks, would be helpful. It’s our first foray into PF 2.0, and I of course, like to be the “tank” character leading the group and taking the brunt of the attacks.
LG Champion of Ragathiel (Warrior background)
1. Unburdened Iron, Intimidating Glare, Ranged Reprisal, Shield Block (free)
2. Barbarian Dedication, Skill feat
3. Toughness
4. Sudden Charge, Skill feat
5. Rock Runner
6. Titan Mauler, Skill feat
7. General feat.
8. Radiant Blade Spirit, Skill feat.
9. Multitalented – Fighter Dedication
10. Power Attack, Skill feat
11. General feat
12. Giant’s Stature, Skill feat
13. Mountain’s Stoutness
14. Barbarian Resiliency, Skill feat
15. General feat
16. Litany against Wrath, skill feat
17. Boulder Roll
18. Celestial Form, Skill feat
19. General feat
20. Radiant Blade Master, Skill feat.
Obviously the idea is to use a large bastard sword, enlarge myself so I’m large with a huge bastard sword. The plan is to run around and power attack everything, while using reprisal if allies are attacked near me. Thinking the Titan Wrestling, and Scare to Death are good options for this kind of build, but I'm not sure the optimal places to put those. Of course, ability increase priority will be Str, then Con, and Cha.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks.
It seems like a big mess to me.
Let us not consider taking toughness at lvl 3 for a moment, and instead let us focus on different stuff:
1) a champion rely on his high armor, and using a shield is the best way to increase it. So he should always consider to dedicate 1 action to raise shield.
2) a champion gains different ways to protect allies or even himself, like
Shield warden ( eventually shield of reckoning )
Quick block
Divine reflexes
But you didn't take any of those, so you only have 1 reaction per turn, which sucks in terms of tanking.
3) Max investement on divine ally blade is basically nonsense if compared to the other divine allies. The shield one is mandatory if you want to be a tank.
4) Power attack uses 2 actions, and because of focus points and raise shield, in adjunct to movements, it is hard that you will be always able to use it, even though it is a good feat.
I suggest you to maintain the fighter dedication ( remember tha by lvl 9 you will need at least 14 dex in order to multiclass ), and to also go for the reflexive shield.
Finally, toughness should be taken at higher lvls. Consider instead another heritage feat or something else.
Haven't gone over it in great detail, but a few things stood out:
You took Radiant Blade Spirit too early. It's a 10th level feat.
I'd drop barbarian dedication, to be honest. The bonus damage is not worth the AC penalty, even less so if you take another -1 AC for wielding an oversized weapon. -2 AC is a serious penalty in PF2 and you don't really get much from it. If you want reach, just use a d10 reach weapon.
And why fighter dedication for Power Attack at 10 when you could get Blade of Justice at 12? Seems like a waste.
I'm also not a fan of Radiant Blade Master. By the time you get it, Keen has been available as rune for 7 levels (unless your GM is absolutely against uncommon items). And I can't see myself using Greater Disrupting over Holy unless I'm in a very undead heavy campaign.
Sounds like Radiant Blade isn't as useful as I thought, seemed pretty cool, though.
My reasoning for Power Attack, stems from the Barb dedication, Large sword, and eventually enlarged with a Huge sword.
Assuming 1 handed:
Power attack (Large Bastard Sword), at 10, would be 2d6 (1H) + 4d6 vs any foe, instead of just evil.
At 12th 3d6+6d6, and 18th at 3d6+9d6 (if we ever get that far).
So the suggestion is pretty much stick with sword and board.
I wasn't aware you can take a heritage feat in place of a general feat? That's why it's there at 3rd. I suppose I can push it to a later level, just seemed like a good idea to grab it early - it's +1 hp per level, which seems a bit more important early on rather than later.
I am kind of dedicated to the bastard sword idea, since it's the deity weapon and RP fluff for Ragathiel. Figured the Giant instinct would allow reach and harder hits, at the cost of some AC (where I'll be in full plate with a shield, I didn't think the impact would be too dire).
I certainly did make an error taking RAdiant Blade at 10th, not sure how I did that. Hm...
I'll have to rearrange a few things, then.
Thanks.
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Increased weapon size does NOT increse the damage die. A bastard sword does 1d8 (or 1d12 when wielded with both hands), even if it's huge. The only way to get a damage bonus out of an oversized weapon is the giant instinct of the barbarian and for your character, you're stuck with +6 since you can't get the instict specialization.
You can't get an ancestry feat instead of a general feat. But the general feat "Ancestral Paragon" allows you to get a 1st level ancestry feat.
You will get all the hp for the missing lvls.
It's not that if you Pick toughness at lvl 18 you will only get 3 hp .
Also to have clumsy 1 is like to trade attack, which is a way too huge Debuff.
Quote:
Clumsy
Source Core Rulebook pg. 618
Your movements become clumsy and inexact. Clumsy always includes a value. You take a status penalty equal to the condition value to Dexterity-based checks and DCs, including AC, Reflex saves, ranged attack rolls, and skill checks using Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery.
So you will have -1 ac from rage and -1 from clumsy.
I suggest you to think about your Role.
There’s nothing bad about being a shabby dps or simply about playing the pg you want, but in terms of tanking... You simply are not a tank at all.
If you want to be doing damage your build is fine, Heavy Armor and better armor proficiency means that you have the same AC as an Heavy Armor Fighter when you are under rage and clumsy 1 at lvl 20 (45AC).
But from what I see you want to tank by occupying a large amount of space on the field and stands in between the enemies and your allies while swinging a big sword.
So in respect of your concept of blocking stuff with your big body what about what about Wizard/Druid/Arcane Primal Sorcerer dedication instead of Barbarian? You get access to the enlarge spell that have the same number of actions as Giant Stature (one to rage and another to get big against the two action activity enlarge) and you can get access to being big earlier, at lvl 6 and at lvl 12 you can be huge, get an Staff of Transmutation to help being larger more times a day. Bonus points you get Shield cantrip depending of the dedication.
I would suggest stop at expert spellcasting + breath for lvl 6 spell slots, Smite Evil is good to get if you are going blade ally.
Ah, well that's pretty lame, Blave. I thought the weapon size rules carried over, shouldn't have assumed that. That's pretty much the idea I had in mind, though - be a big threat, block off choke points, etc. The whole allure to the Raging Giant Paladin was the enlarged weapon damage die, and the reach, combined with power attack. The extra HP from Barb resiliency was an idea to offset the lower AC.
So, it is still doable, but Kyrone's recommendation is going a caster route dedication instead of Barb, for enlarge person and shield spell; whereas K1 is suggesting a better option would be sword and board.
It is easier than it seems.
Just try to simulate some simple stuff, like a hypothetical fight encounter which sees:
-you
-your ally
-your enemy
eventually
-a second enemy
Then try to see how stuff like
Armor, in terms of hit/miss/crit on you works
Reactions on the ally
Damage mitigation
Other stuff.
Etc...
Remember also that the key lvls are all above lvl 8,because of feats like Shield block, shield of reckoning, power attack, divine reflexes and so on.
If you are from the 5th or PF1 remember that here a +1 armor or hit counts double, because of how critical success and failure work.
Imagine also how could Monsters deal once they will find out that you are harder or easier to hit.
So how do the enlarge effects work in this version then?
The enlarge spell lists the effect as "Gain clumsy 1, reach +5, +2 damage".
Whereas Giant's Stature gives "Gain clumsy 1, reach +5".
Titan Mauler gives us "Use oversized weapon. Gain clumsy 1, and increase bonus Rage damage from +2 to +6".
Does Giant's Stature also give the +2, due to being larger, as the enlarge spell? And would this be Clumsy 2 while using a large weapon, while enlarged?
The damage die rules state, if I'm using a d12 (2h bastard sword), it doesn't increase. One handed would be 1d8, moving to 2d6 normally, but would that just be d12 then? Or does it just give a simple static + to damage (in the above case, +6 from titan mauler, and the potential +2 from enlarge).
As a followup question, is the extra potential +8 damage worth a dedication, and 2 more feats. When laid out like that, it seems (while thematically cool), mechanically weak.
prileska wrote: Ah, well that's pretty lame, Blave. I thought the weapon size rules carried over, shouldn't have assumed that. That's pretty much the idea I had in mind, though - be a big threat, block off choke points, etc. The whole allure to the Raging Giant Paladin was the enlarged weapon damage die, and the reach, combined with power attack. The extra HP from Barb resiliency was an idea to offset the lower AC.
So, it is still doable, but Kyrone's recommendation is going a caster route dedication instead of Barb, for enlarge person and shield spell; whereas K1 is suggesting a better option would be sword and board.
Alternatively be a barbarian and then MC champion instead. Pick up the champion's reaction and maybe healing touch. It looks like most of your low level feats are being spent on barbarian feats anyway, so why not just be a barbarian?
Mainly because I really like Celestial Form at 18, and with multiclassing, the highest level feats I could choose would be 1/2 class level, correct?
prileska wrote: Mainly because I really like Celestial Form at 18, and with multiclassing, the highest level feats I could choose would be 1/2 class level, correct? Yep
prileska wrote: So how do the enlarge effects work in this version then?
The enlarge spell lists the effect as "Gain clumsy 1, reach +5, +2 damage".
Whereas Giant's Stature gives "Gain clumsy 1, reach +5".
Titan Mauler gives us "Use oversized weapon. Gain clumsy 1, and increase bonus Rage damage from +2 to +6".
That's it they work as described. Increasing in size does not increase damage, reach or anything if it does not specify that it does so.
prileska wrote:
Does Giant's Stature also give the +2, due to being larger, as the enlarge spell? And would this be Clumsy 2 while using a large weapon, while enlarged?
No enlarge does it but giant stature just increases your size and gives reach.
Also clumsy does not stack unless it says otherwise. If you are slowed 1 10 times you are slowed 1 still.
prileska wrote:
The damage die rules state, if I'm using a d12 (2h bastard sword), it doesn't increase. One handed would be 1d8, moving to 2d6 normally, but would that just be d12 then? Or does it just give a simple static + to damage (in the above case, +6 from titan mauler, and the potential +2 from enlarge).
Weapons deal the same damage no matter what size so yeah titan gives the static increase when raging but otherwise nothing happens... And like i said no +2 from enlarge since the Giant stature is a different effect than enlarge. If someone casts enlarge on you and you rage the bonuses do stack thought.
prileska wrote:
As a followup question, is the extra potential +8 damage worth a dedication, and 2 more feats. When laid out like that, it seems (while thematically cool), mechanically weak. +6 static damage is a lot... But i don't think it is worth it if you are doing it for power. You can instead just keep +2 damage and go for a far more useful feat after the dedication.
Okay, thanks much for the explanations.
Thinking going Barbarian base to capitalize on the extra raging damage while enlarged might be a better option for me. Possibly go sorcerer divine for the pally flavor, or sorcerer primal for a bloodrager feel in that case, then.
Or, animal barbarian, druid mc for enlarge... Hmm
prileska wrote: Okay, thanks much for the explanations.
Thinking going Barbarian base to capitalize on the extra raging damage while enlarged might be a better option for me. Possibly go sorcerer divine for the pally flavor, or sorcerer primal for a bloodrager feel in that case, then.
Or, animal barbarian, druid mc for enlarge... Hmm
Druid might be a bad idea because they have an anathema that prevents them from using metal armor or shields. It doesn't mention weapons I believe so if you don't mind the armor then it's okay.
I did notice that, yeah. Since I'll be using a breadtplate likely, I should be sticking with sorcerer for true strike, mirror image, haste, and flight. Either that or celestial for healing, etc. Guess that final decision is made once I know who else is planning on playing.
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