How do people best like to open there combats when using compositions and focus powers with a Bard. The scenario is you have 2 Focus points for a fight vs a boss. You are level 7 so you have access to the following: inspire courage, inspire heroics, inspire defense, lingering composition. You also have spells that take 2 actions and you can demoralize for a single action. You have two other frontliners so your a safe distance away from the boss. Just curious to see how you play this.
Round 1:
Round 2:
Round 3:
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Why no Dirge of Doom? That combines the best things about inspire courage and inspire defense.
Anyway, I assume I'm within 30 ft of the boss. I also assume I succeed on the Lingering Performance check.
Round 1: Lingering Performance -> Inspire Courage (this would actually be Dirge of Doom) -> Slow
Round 2: Demoralize -> Slow again if it didn't stick the first time), otherwise Phantasmal Killer
Round 3: No idea. Would totally depend on how the fight is going. If the front liners are having trouble, I'd probably use an Illusory Creature as distraction (preferably heightened) or use Soothe to heal one of the melee guys. If they seem to be fine, I'd fire my shortbow and cast Heightened Grim Tendrils if I knew the boss had low fort save. Or Phantasmal Killer again in case of low Will save. If the GM says the boss is nearly dead I would try to finish him off witha 3rd level magic missile.
I'd also most likely fire a short bow instead of demoralizing in round 2, since I'd usually have Dirge running for the frightening.
No dirge because your Bard is already built to Demoralize and you can use you cantrip for something else, perhaps Inspire defense? Could you:
Round 1: Lingering Performance -----> Inspire Courage, demoralize (allies can take advantage)
Round 2: Inspire Defense, Phantasmal Killer?
Does that work? So you'd have both inspire courage and defense up basically for the second round.
Well, Demoralize works for one turn each combat and affects only one enemy at a time. And you can outright fail the check resulting in no frightening at all. Dirge is better because it has literally none of those problems.
You could even use Dirge to make an enemy frightened 1, then hit his lowered defenses with Demoralize to fish for a crit to make him frightened 2. Not very likely to work but also not the worst you can do with a spare action.
As for your 2 round combo: Doesn't work. Lingering Performance doesn't allow you to have multiple compositions running at the same time. You'd need to get Harmonize for that.
Well, Demoralize works for one turn each combat and affects only one enemy at a time. And you can outright fail the check resulting in no frightening at all. Dirge is better because it has literally none of those problems.
You could even use Dirge to make an enemy frightened 1, then hit his lowered defenses with Demoralize to fish for a crit to make him frightened 2. Not very likely to work but also not the worst you can do with a spare action.
As for your 2 round combo: Doesn't work. Lingering Performance doesn't allow you to have multiple compositions running at the same time. You'd need to get Harmonize for that.
Ohh ya, and Harmonize has its owns issues :(
So if I had Harmonize could I:
Round 2: Harmonize, Inspire Defense, demoralize or aid?
That's do-able correct?
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What kind of boss? What kind of attacks will they be laying out? What kind of terrain or mobility? How many boss allies?
What's the party composition? How long until martials can engage (or any attack rolls)? Does "other" frontliners imply I'm one? How many "backliners" or ranged attackers?
What debilitating conditions will other players be applying & when?
Which ones would trigger one of their abilities, i.e. flat footed for the Rogue's Sneak Attack?
Do I have a ranged weapon, and how good am I with it? (Not that I'd fire multiple shots, but my first shot should have a decent chance.
Oh, wait, boss?
R1: Magic Missile
R2: Magic Missile
R3: Magic Missile
(Seriously. I would've been saving them.)
If not able to get in a 3-action casting, I might toss up a Composition w/ Lingering Composition to free me up for such casting.
If the boss is extra beefy on h.p. for its level, like an Ogre, Troll, Zombie, or whatnot, the no Magic Missiles. It'll likely have lower defenses (though still decent if it's above the PCs' level.) Or if the fight was less about the boss and more about his whole gang, then I'd also switch to more traditional Bard tactics.
But those would depend a lot on all of the questions I listed. They weren't there for fluff.
Traditional "Bard Support" Tactics:
Round One: Even though Haste isn't the default it had been forever, I'd likely need to drop one on the slowest martial. If I'm a safe distance away from the boss, the same is true for him from my guys. And you don't want your martials to arrive separately!
If that wouldn't help, I'd likely do as many of the following as possible:
If it's an unknown creature and I think I have a matching skill (and at a good level, since the DC's higher for a boss), I'd do a Recall Knowledge. I'd likely need to move out of line of fire (AoEs mainly) or put up Shield, though if not then Inspire Defense (assuming allies have to get into position still).
I'd keep my focus points for Counter Performance (assuming my Bard has an awesome Performance). If the boss doesn't or wouldn't use auditory/visual attacks, then I'd use the points for Lingering Performance when I drop my first Inspire Courage to free up future actions. If I'm low on "future actions" due to depleted or unsuitable spells and no good weapon vs. this enemy, and therefore will have actions available for Cantrips, then I'd Inspire Heroics instead w/ my focus points.
This depends a lot on what attack I'd expect the boss to start with.
Will I want a little defense spread out over time, or a big surge to defense right off the bat (like vs. a dragon who can hit us all in the AoE or a set of archers)? Again, party matters. If surrounded by Champions & War Priests who can heal themselves while swinging and went before me so are already engaged w/ the enemy, I'd emphasize offense more w/ an Inspire Courage.
Round 2: I'd assume the boss will save or even critically save so my spell slots will likely only have one round of effect (and I'd avoid spells that have no effect on a normal save). If there's a debuffer in the party, I may wait until they apply one to saves, like Frightened or Fatigued.
Or I'd start laying out the debuffs for others if I have any that can hit the enemy. (The low-level Occult list if kind of uninspiring, though don't knock Slow taking away even a single action early against a boss.) Range is a major issue at this point, since Slow or even a Demoralize only hits 30' as do many spells. And as the premise states, I'm at a safe distance (which to me is more than 30'). Do I have Reach Spell? (I doubt it since I'd usually want spare actions for Cantrips.)
So likely I have to approach, giving me time for another Composition (as per previous guidelines, so most likely Inspire Courage w/ or w/o Inspire Heroics.) Then Shield or Demoralize w/ the last action (assuming I've gotten within 30').
Round 3: Most likely need a Soothe on somebody & want an Inspire Courage. If somebody else has healing covered, then what's needed?
Faerie Fire? Fly? Maybe a Resilient Sphere to steal an action or two from the boss? Or would that be wasted?
If not worth casting from a slot (and after Inspire Courage): Demoralize (if I didn't last round), Shield, or even another Recall Knowledge (in that order). Or an attack Cantrip like TK Projectile.
Which is all to say I wouldn't be able to script out a default answer for players seeking advice. Varied tactics is one aspect of PF2 I appreciate.
Cheers
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Dear God Harmonized is terribad :|
That sucks Inspire Heroics can't be used with Lingering Composition. Huge hit.
Why no Dirge of Doom? That combines the best things about inspire courage and inspire defense.
Anyway, I assume I'm within 30 ft of the boss. I also assume I succeed on the Lingering Performance check.
Round 1: Lingering Performance -> Inspire Courage (this would actually be Dirge of Doom) -> Slow
Round 2: Demoralize -> Slow again if it didn't stick the first time), otherwise Phantasmal Killer
Round 3: No idea. Would totally depend on how the fight is going. If the front liners are having trouble, I'd probably use an Illusory Creature as distraction (preferably heightened) or use Soothe to heal one of the melee guys. If they seem to be fine, I'd fire my shortbow and cast Heightened Grim Tendrils if I knew the boss had low fort save. Or Phantasmal Killer again in case of low Will save. If the GM says the boss is nearly dead I would try to finish him off witha 3rd level magic missile.
I'd also most likely fire a short bow instead of demoralizing in round 2, since I'd usually have Dirge running for the frightening.
Interesting, but doesn't Phantasmal Killer suck vs Bosses cuz it has the Incapacitated trait?
Tasha's?
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Tasha's?
Hideous laughter. Used to be called Tasha's hideous laughter in DnD 3.5
Paizo had to drop the name since it's owned by Wizards if the Coast.
Also, I see no Incapacitation trait on Phantasmal Killer. It's just a solid single target blast with a debuff attached. I wouldn't expect a boss to actually die to it, of course.
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Well, Demoralize works for one turn each combat and affects only one enemy at a time. And you can outright fail the check resulting in no frightening at all. Dirge is better because it has literally none of those problems.
You could even use Dirge to make an enemy frightened 1, then hit his lowered defenses with Demoralize to fish for a crit to make him frightened 2. Not very likely to work but also not the worst you can do with a spare action.
As for your 2 round combo: Doesn't work. Lingering Performance doesn't allow you to have multiple compositions running at the same time. You'd need to get Harmonize for that.
My God your right, Demoralize is weak sauce. I thought you could use it every round if you wanted, but you can't do it for 10mins ugh. Why even go an Intimidate build, better to go Medicine or something. So I can't Demoralize every round, I cant Lingering composition with Inspire Heroics. I can't Inspire Heroics for more than 2 rounds in a fight assuming you have two focus points. Your killing me here.
Tasha's?Hideous laughter. Used to be called Tasha's hideous laughter in DnD 3.5
Paizo had to drop the name since it's owned by Wizards if the Coast.
Also, I see no Incapacitation trait on Phantasmal Killer. It's just a solid single target blast with a debuff attached. I wouldn't expect a boss to actually die to it, of course.
Phantasmal Killer has the trait on a critical failure.
Phantasmal Killer has the trait on a critical failure.Tasha's?Hideous laughter. Used to be called Tasha's hideous laughter in DnD 3.5
Paizo had to drop the name since it's owned by Wizards if the Coast.
Also, I see no Incapacitation trait on Phantasmal Killer. It's just a solid single target blast with a debuff attached. I wouldn't expect a boss to actually die to it, of course.
Oh, right. Totally forgot about that. Its unfortunately not very clear which part of the CritFail has the trait. I think it's the whole fortitude save.
Since the spell doesn't specify that a CritSuccess on the fortitude save does anything special, it should default back to the success effect, no matter how well the target rolls. And that's still 12d6 damage, frightened 4 and fleeing for one round. A pretty damn significant debuff.
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My God your right, Demoralize is weak sauce. I thought you could use it every round if you wanted, but you can't do it for 10mins ugh. Why even go an Intimidate build, better to go Medicine or something.
It's honestly not nearly as bad as you make it sound. Demoralize can still be used for free every combat, once per enemy. It can help you to make an important spell stick and it doesn't suffer any MAP, making it a great use for your third action, no matter what class you are. It also makes the target immune to only your Demoraize attempts. Nothing keeps the rest of the party from Demoralizing the target in the next round, giving your combat guys somthing to do that's better than an attack at -10.
Assuming you're the only one using it and fighting a single boss with no additional enemies just happens to be the worst case scenario for Demoralize, so of course it looks bad in this situation.
So I can't Demoralize every round, I cant Lingering composition with Inspire Heroics. I can't Inspire Heroics for more than 2 rounds in a fight assuming you have two focus points.
You can't do those things because they would be much much better than anything else anybody could do. Inspire Heroics gives Inspire Courage the bonus of a 6th level Heroism spell (or even 9th level on a crit!). And while the duration is very short, you can basically do this ever combat AND you affect the whole party AND it costs you only a single action. It's a very very powerful ability. Combining it with Lingering performance would make it ridiculously strong.
Your killing me here.
You're welcome? :P
Seriously though, it's better to burst your bubble now than having the GM later shoot down all your tactics during actual gameplay, don't you think? :)
Would it be viable to get both Dirge of Doom and be good at Intimidation? Or is it usually just one or the other type of deal?
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Would it be viable to get both Dirge of Doom and be good at Intimidation? Or is it usually just one or the other type of deal?
It's easy to have the ability to do both mechanically, but they don't really stack (ie: you just use whichever value you inflict is higher, you don't combine them).
So Demoralize's utility is pretty limited once you have Dirge of Doom. Of course, as I said, the basic ability to do both is pretty cheap and doable, but investing in Demoralize when you're gonna be using Dirge of Doom a lot is probably a mistake.
Ya there is no real investment in Intimidation as I will be using Performance to Intimidate, so I guess it doesn't hurt at all. I'm not getting any feats that contribute towards it at all.
Why no Dirge of Doom? That combines the best things about inspire courage and inspire defense.
Anyway, I assume I'm within 30 ft of the boss. I also assume I succeed on the Lingering Performance check.
Round 1: Lingering Performance -> Inspire Courage (this would actually be Dirge of Doom) -> Slow
Round 2: Demoralize -> Slow again if it didn't stick the first time), otherwise Phantasmal Killer
Round 3: No idea. Would totally depend on how the fight is going. If the front liners are having trouble, I'd probably use an Illusory Creature as distraction (preferably heightened) or use Soothe to heal one of the melee guys. If they seem to be fine, I'd fire my shortbow and cast Heightened Grim Tendrils if I knew the boss had low fort save. Or Phantasmal Killer again in case of low Will save. If the GM says the boss is nearly dead I would try to finish him off witha 3rd level magic missile.
I'd also most likely fire a short bow instead of demoralizing in round 2, since I'd usually have Dirge running for the frightening.
Interesting never considered Slow, didn't think losing an action was a big deal for a Boss, wouldn't a Boss just attack twice anyways with his two actions or? What do bosses normally do with their three actions? (Assuming we are all within striking range)
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Interesting never considered Slow, didn't think losing an action was a big deal for a Boss, wouldn't a Boss just attack twice anyways with his two actions or? What do bosses normally do with their three actions? (Assuming we are all within striking range)
Lots of bestiary monsters have two or more rarely three action attacks that give them a big action economy or MAP avoidance advantage or boost their attack some other way. Preventing those three action attacks or stopping a move plus a two action attack can be very beneficial.
Take a dragon - if it only has two actions it can't move before using either it's breath weapon or draconic frenzy. The breath weapon will either hit fewer people, or it has to move and strike rather than get three strikes out a double action.
Would it be viable to get both Dirge of Doom and be good at Intimidation? Or is it usually just one or the other type of deal?It's easy to have the ability to do both mechanically, but they don't really stack (ie: you just use whichever value you inflict is higher, you don't combine them).
So Demoralize's utility is pretty limited once you have Dirge of Doom. Of course, as I said, the basic ability to do both is pretty cheap and doable, but investing in Demoralize when you're gonna be using Dirge of Doom a lot is probably a mistake.
Which would you go? Battle Cry with Intimidate focus or Dirge?
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Which would you go? Battle Cry with Intimidate focus or Dirge?
It really depends on what you're going for.
Dirge hits everyone and is inescapably on forever if you spend the actions on it, it's thus much better for someone (including you, via multiclassing) who has the Dread Striker Rogue Feat (which is great), and vs. large numbers of minions since it hits them all.
On the other hand, Intimidate can hit any one target for Frightened 2 if you really focus on it and get lucky, but only one target and only once per combat per target.
IMO, Dirge of Doom is usually better, but if you're a really focused Save or Suck caster and are willing to strongly invest in it, I can see Intimidate. Scare To Death is also very worth it if you hit the right level for it (and neither benefits from nor requires other Intimidate Skill Feats, so you can take it pretty readily on top of Dirge if you're doing the Versatile Performance thing).
Which would you go? Battle Cry with Intimidate focus or Dirge?It really depends on what you're going for.
Dirge hits everyone and is inescapably on forever if you spend the actions on it, it's thus much better for someone (including you, via multiclassing) who has the Dread Striker Rogue Feat (which is great), and vs. large numbers of minions since it hits them all.
On the other hand, Intimidate can hit any one target for Frightened 2 if you really focus on it and get lucky, but only one target and only once per combat per target.
IMO, Dirge of Doom is usually better, but if you're a really focused Save or Suck caster and are willing to strongly invest in it, I can see Intimidate. Scare To Death is also very worth it if you hit the right level for it (and neither benefits from nor requires other Intimidate Skill Feats, so you can take it pretty readily on top of Dirge if you're doing the Versatile Performance thing).
Well reasoned, thank you!
I recently made a 7th level that does both and has a focus on Fear in general (it’s actually one of his signature spells)
I guess I’m thinking maybe I should rework the build since running Battle Cry and Dirge seems like a waste.
I have the Bard Feat that gets Performance on Demoralize (VP) so I could be treated as Master at level 7 and grab Battle Cry. Basically he outputs fear always but I felt like Dirge was a way to ensure the Frightened stuck longer.
It seemed thematic but maybe it’s over kill
Mechanically, it's probably overkill, yeah. It's one Skill Feat, though, so if you prefer it for theme it's hardly gonna cripple you.
True though it is the coveted Master level Skill feat. Food for thought I suppose.
When's a good time to use Inspire defense (heroics) instead of Inspire courage (heroics)? I'm considering maybe getting Inspire defence as a feat but just not sure if it can hold its own. Anyone recommend Inspire defence?
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When's a good time to use Inspire defense (heroics) instead of Inspire courage (heroics)? I'm considering maybe getting Inspire defence as a feat but just not sure if it can hold its own. Anyone recommend Inspire defence?
It depends on how much average damage inspire courage adds VS how much average damage inspire defense mitigates. Both depend on how many attacks are being made on both sides, and how much damage is being done on hit by both sides, and how likely attacks are to hit, and how much your party depends on attacks VS save effects, so it's kind of hard to give a definitive answer.
The short answer is, if you think your party deals more damage than the enemies next turn, inspire courage. If you think the enemies deal more damage than your party next turn, inspire defense.
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When's a good time to use Inspire defense (heroics) instead of Inspire courage (heroics)? I'm considering maybe getting Inspire defence as a feat but just not sure if it can hold its own. Anyone recommend Inspire defence?
My simple test is:
If the party members outnumber the enemies, Inspire Courage.
If the enemies outnumber the party members, Inspire Defense.
If the party is the greater number, you're impacting the greater number of die rolls by buffing their attacks (perhaps this isn't true if, for example, all of the enemies will all be making weapon attacks, but half of your party will be using spells that rely on saves).
And if the enemies are the greater number, you're impacting the greater number of die rolls by debuffing the enemy's attacks (as well as giving a touch of damage mitigation on those hits that do hit; and again, if many of the enemies are not making weapon attacks... it's a simple test, not a perfect test!).
Though Dirge of Doom muddies the waters a bit. Frightened 1 on all enemies ends up being the same as Inspire Courage AND Inspire Defense except for the resistance effect in Inspire Defense. Using Inspire Heroics would, of course, pump the numbers up beyond what Dirge of Doom is capable of.
It's a delicious conundrum, and while there is quite a bit of "science" behind the optimal composition to cast in a given round, I feel that there is also a fair bit of "art" in there too, which is great Bard theme, isn't it?
as a random sidenote.
if one is a goblin bard. I suppose you could combo Goblin Song + Dirdge and/or Intimidate to fish for crits too.
Does anyone know if goblin song which gives a -1 status penalty to Will saves stacks with Frightened -1 status penalty to all checks?