Acid Splash

[Thewms]

Does it deal 1 acid damage to adjacent creatures?

ACID SPLASH CANTRIP 1
[ACID] [ATTACK] [CANTRIP] [EVOCATION]
Traditions: arcane, primal
Cast: [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range: 30 feet; Targets 1 creature or object
You splash a glob of acid that splatters creatures and objects alike. Make a spell attack. If you hit, you deal 1d6 acid damage plus 1 splash acid damage. On a critical success, the target also takes 1 persistent acid damage.

splash (trait): When you use a thrown weapon with the splash trait, you don’t add your Strength modifier to the damage roll. If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage. On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack still takes the splash damage. Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target’s weaknesses or resistances. You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit.

Also, does the 1 acid splash damage not double on a critical hit?

EDIT and does the target still take the 1 acid damage if you miss?

[Ubertron_X]

We discussed this in our group and ruled yes for the splash damage as otherwise the spell as written does not make much sense.

RAW I fear the answer is no, no splash damage because the trait is missing. However it is open to debate if this trait is just covering mundane weapons and not spells.

Edit: Having re-read all respective paragraphs of the CRB I firmly believe that the splash trait is only used for physical items / weapons.

[Saros Palanthios]

You don't need the Splash trait to do splash damage. The spell does splash damage because the spell text says it does.

Since it doesn't have the Splash trait, it doesn't do the splash damage to the target on a failure. The spell does what it says it does, no more and no less.

[Edge93]

I feel like this does need some clarification. The Splash trait is called out as being a thrown weapon only, but it's pretty clear the spell is meant to work the same way, otherwise calling it splash damage would be pointless.

So I'm all but certain the intent is splash to target on miss, splash to target and adjacent on crit, no double splash damage on crit.

[shroudb]

Saros Palanthios wrote:

You don't need the Splash trait to do splash damage. The spell does splash damage because the spell text says it does.

Since it doesn't have the Splash trait, it doesn't do the splash damage to the target on a failure. The spell does what it says it does, no more and no less.

actually... it seems, RAW, you do.

What IS splash damage outside of the trait?

it's defined nowhere in the book.

The only mention of what splash damage does is indeed in the trait, where it says:

"When you use a
thrown weapon with the splash trait, you don’t add your
Strength modifier to the damage roll.
If an attack with a
splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all
creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target)
take the listed splash damage. On a failure (but not a critical
failure), the target of the attack still takes the splash damage.
Add splash damage together with the initial damage against
the target before applying the target’s resistance or weakness.
You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit."

So, back to the spell "acid splash"

what IS "1 acid splash damage" in this case? Is it aoe, how far does it goes, what happens on a miss, a hit, a crit, etc.

There are ZERO rules of what "splash damage" is outside of the very specific mention that "weapons with the Splash trait, deal their Splash damage, on 5ft radious"

There is an absolute lack of rules what happens in the absence of the trait since it's the trait that actually applies the damage and tells us HOW and WHERE it applies.

Ofc, the problem being that the trait is clearly written for weapons and not spells, that leaves Acid Splash in a very akward position.

But still, rules for Splash damage need to be written OR the splash trait rewritten to account for spells and add it on the spells.

[Cydeth]

Most swarms take extra damage from splash damage attacks, so even if other adjacent creatures wouldn't take damage from Acid Splash on a failure, it'd still trigger their weakness, which is pretty nice IMO.

[Ubertron_X]

Cydeth wrote:

Most swarms take extra damage from splash damage attacks, so even if other adjacent creatures wouldn't take damage from Acid Splash on a failure, it'd still trigger their weakness, which is pretty nice IMO.

So the "random" one splash damage of acid splash is not so random and could possible really only affect the target square? Hm...

[Arachnofiend]

Acid Splash doesn't do AOE damage because it doesn't say it does. It being "splash" damage matters because some monsters are weak to splash damage, swarms in particular. A vampire bat swarm takes 3 extra damage from Acid Splash.

[Cydeth]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Acid Splash doesn't do AOE damage because it doesn't say it does. It being "splash" damage matters because some monsters are weak to splash damage, swarms in particular. A vampire bat swarm takes 3 extra damage from Acid Splash.

Exactly. They have vulnerability to splash and area of effect damage separately.

[Saros Palanthios]

Based on the Weaknesses of various creatures in the Bestiary, it appears that "splash damage" and "area damage" are two separate things, but neither is clearly defined anywhere in the CRB or Bestiary... hm. Might be an oversight.

[Ubertron_X]

Cydeth wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Acid Splash doesn't do AOE damage because it doesn't say it does. It being "splash" damage matters because some monsters are weak to splash damage, swarms in particular. A vampire bat swarm takes 3 extra damage from Acid Splash.

Exactly. They have vulnerability to splash and area of effect damage separately.

Yeah, but then again, the fact remains that "splash damage" has no general definition in the CRB.

[Captain Zoom]

Given all the "discussion" about how acid splash works, I thought I'd post Nefreet's discovery in this thread so it's easier to find if people are searching for acid splash info:

Nefreet wrote:

The Secrets of Magic playtest document might answer this question?

Page 5, Ancillary Effects wrote:

It still has any non-targeted effects that might affect creatures other than the target, and any ongoing effects starting from the moment you hit with the Strike. For example, acid splash would still deal its splash damage to creatures other than the target, tanglefoot’s penalty would last for its normal duration, and vampiric touch still gives you temporary Hit Points. The spell takes effect after the Strike deals damage; if the Strike has other special effects, the GM determines whether they happen before or after the spell.

Although not a specific ruling or errata, it does appear the developers think the Acid Splash cantrip has the Splash trait.

[Unicore]

The CRB got another Errata without defining how splash damage works and when it triggers. Is splash damage just a damage type? Does it do damage to adjacent creatures on a miss?

The new FAQ looks very promising for resolving questions for the acid splash spell and how it is supposed to work, as well as resolving this issue for scatter weapons as well.

[Farien]

*shrugs*

Still waiting to know how long I can follow commands when not in combat too.

But at least there is a schedule of fixes coming.

[Shain Edge]

So, here is a question involving swarms and splash damage:

If the swarm is a 10"x10" swarm and it gets hit by an Acid Splash, hitting one square as it's target, then three other squares in it's splash damage, does it take it's weakness once, or four times, or does the splash even hit multiple times on the same target?

[HammerJack]

If you attack a swarm with a splash weapon or an acid splash spell, the swarm is the target. One square is not the target. The swarm takes splash damage once.

[Shain Edge]

HammerJack wrote:

If you attack a swarm with a splash weapon or an acid splash spell, the swarm is the target. One square is not the target. The swarm takes splash damage once.

I only ask because, based on everything else, if the swarm was "missed" or the target of the spell caused the swarm to be tangential to the Acid Splash and the 1 point of splash damage would still kick off the full weakness, right? It doesn't have to be the "target" to take splash damage.

[breithauptclan]

Splash trait wrote:

If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage.

The creature is still what is being affected by the splash damage. Not each square.

So the creature only takes the splash damage once no matter how many squares would be affected by the splash area.

Similarly if you have tiny creatures or other means of having multiple creatures in the same square, each creature is affected by the splash - you don't get to pick one to take the splash damage and the other avoids the damage.

[Farien]

And before it is asked: no, a swarm is mechanically considered a single creature. The multiple creature idea is already handled by the swarm's weakness to area and splash damage. Same for troop creatures.

[Unicore]

Shain Edge wrote:

So, here is a question involving swarms and splash damage:

If the swarm is a 10"x10" swarm and it gets hit by an Acid Splash, hitting one square as it's target, then three other squares in it's splash damage, does it take it's weakness once, or four times, or does the splash even hit multiple times on the same target?

The real question here is how do you know that acid splash has any effect on any creature that is not the initial target of the spell. Assuming “splash damage” means the spell works like a bomb requires assuming the splash trait applies to the spell. By the closest reading of the rules possible, the spell would have to hit the target to do any splash damage, and then that extra damage could very well only affect the initial target. Splash itself is not a term defined in the core rulebook outside of being a trait. Having it exist as a type of damage and only a type of damage is something that has game meaning, since some creatures are weak to it. Assuming it does more is interpretation. A good interpretation if you ask me, but still an interpretation.

[Shain Edge]

Unicore wrote:

The real question here is how do you know that acid splash has any effect on any creature that is not the initial target of the spell. Assuming “splash damage” means the spell works like a bomb requires assuming the splash trait applies to the spell. By the closest reading of the rules possible, the spell would have to hit the target to do any splash damage, and then that extra damage could very well only affect the initial target. Splash itself is not a term defined in the core rulebook outside of being a trait. Having it exist as a type of damage and only a type of damage is something that has game meaning, since some creatures are weak to it. Assuming it does more is interpretation. A good interpretation if you ask me, but still an interpretation.

PF2 Core Book - page 636 - 4th Printing

splash (trait) When you use a thrown weapon with the splash trait, you don’t add your Strength modifier to the damage roll. If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage. On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack still takes the splash damage. Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target’s weaknesses or resistances. You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit.

As for whether the splash damage would hit anyone outside the initial target on a "miss", it makes perfect sense that it would still do the splash, especially on a miss. That is also the reading, assuming it's not a critical failure that everyone will still take splash damage, within the 5'.

Why would the spell "Acid Splash" use the specific word of "splash damage" if the spell didn't actually "splash", like the trait. It would make no sense to add the term specifically into the spell and not mean what it means as a trait. That would be especially sloppy of the creators, especially after 4 printings.

Besides it says right in the spell's description that it hits nearby creatures-

Acid Splash (Core Book - page 316)
"You splash a glob of acid that splatters your target and nearby creatures. Make a spell attack. If you hit, you deal 1d6 acid damage plus 1 splash acid damage. On a critical success, the target also takes 1 persistent acid damage."

[breithauptclan]

For bombs and firearms, yeah that works fine.

Acid Splash - for some strange reason - doesn't actually have the Splash trait though.

So it does splash damage... -ish.

Now, if the GM rules that Acid Splash does do splash damage to creatures within 5 feet as though it had the Splash trait, an enemy would only take the splash damage once no matter how many affected squares it occupies.

But Unicore is pointing out that nothing actually requires the GM to rule that Acid Splash does its splash damage to anything other than the initial target of the spell.

[Shain Edge]

breithauptclan wrote:

For bombs and firearms, yeah that works fine.

Acid Splash - for some strange reason - doesn't actually have the Splash trait though.

So it does splash damage... -ish.

Now, if the GM rules that Acid Splash does do splash damage to creatures within 5 feet as though it had the Splash trait, an enemy would only take the splash damage once no matter how many affected squares it occupies.

But Unicore is pointing out that nothing actually requires the GM to rule that Acid Splash does its splash damage to anything other than the initial target of the spell.

Acid Splash (Core Book - page 316)

"You splash a glob of acid that splatters your target and nearby creatures. Make a spell attack. If you hit, you deal 1d6 acid damage plus 1 splash acid damage. On a critical success, the target also takes 1 persistent acid damage."

[breithauptclan]

Yea... no. It is definitely too good to be true that Acid Splash does its full damage to every creature within some arbitrary meaning of 'nearby'.

[/sarcasm] Yes, I know that I am deliberately misinterpreting the vague rule text in the spell.

[Shain Edge]

breithauptclan wrote:

Yea... no. It is definitely too good to be true that Acid Splash does its full damage to every creature within some arbitrary meaning of 'nearby'.

[/sarcasm] Yes, I know that I am deliberately misinterpreting the vague rule text in the spell.

I was considering the very same thing, that based on the specific text of the spell, 'Every creature' in the 5 foot range could take the full damage on a hit.

Of course, I'm reasonable and say that the creatures are struck based on splash damage only, as the trait expresses.

As a DM Houserule, I still like the idea that a creature would take additional damage based on the splash area. Maybe not the weakness more then once, but the additional damage based on more of the creature being covered.

[breithauptclan]

Running Acid Splash as though it was a magically created Acid Flask with worse numbers is probably the most reasonable approach to take with the spell.

But it would still be nice if the spell actually has the Splash trait.

And if 'splash damage' was actually properly defined.

[Shain Edge]

breithauptclan wrote:

Running Acid Splash as though it was a magically created Acid Flask with worse numbers is probably the most reasonable approach to take with the spell.

But it would still be nice if the spell actually has the Splash trait.

And if 'splash damage' was actually properly defined.

Considering a person with the Acid Splash spell can cast it unlimited times per day, vs the Alchemist's limits... It's lower value per instance makes sense.

[YuriP]

It's balanced a little better than perpetual bombs (probably due it requires 2-actions).

[Unicore]

Notice the splash trait ties the 5ft radius to the outcome of the attack roll, not the term splash damage. Also note that the spell specifies that splash damage is only done on a hit for the spell, so it is already at odds with the trait and never references that the spell otherwise works like a bomb. I am not saying this is my interpretation, but different GMs I have played with interpret it differently and I understand why. The rules for this spell are not clearly defined. I would love for nearby creatures to meet within 5ft of the target. The spell would definitely be too good though if all the damage worked that way. There was definitely in house confusion about when and how “splash” was going to be defined in the core rulebook.

[Red Metal]

All I know is my gut says maybe.

[Unicore]

Shain Edge wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

For bombs and firearms, yeah that works fine.

Acid Splash - for some strange reason - doesn't actually have the Splash trait though.

So it does splash damage... -ish.

Now, if the GM rules that Acid Splash does do splash damage to creatures within 5 feet as though it had the Splash trait, an enemy would only take the splash damage once no matter how many affected squares it occupies.

But Unicore is pointing out that nothing actually requires the GM to rule that Acid Splash does its splash damage to anything other than the initial target of the spell.

Acid Splash (Core Book - page 316)

"You splash a glob of acid that splatters your target and nearby creatures. Make a spell attack. If you hit, you deal 1d6 acid damage plus 1 splash acid damage. On a critical success, the target also takes 1 persistent acid damage."

Also is this a stealth errata? The quoted spell at the start of this thread is different than what is quoted here. If so, this is a very strange change that does lend credibility to it having some kind of area of effect, but it is still not clear how.

[Shain Edge]

Unicore wrote:

Also is this a stealth errata? The quoted spell at the start of this thread is different than what is quoted here. If so, this is a very strange change that does lend credibility to it having some kind of area of effect, but it is still not clear how.

Maybe? It's in the fourth Printing of the Core Book. If you have the PDF at Paizo, you can DL it.

[Shain Edge]

YuriP wrote:

It's balanced a little better than perpetual bombs (probably due it requires 2-actions).

Bombs "may" require 2 actions if you don't already have one ready.

[Unicore]

It does seem like Acid splash was changed when all the spells that used to be able to target objects. So they did partially change it, but not really in a way that explains what to do. It gives us a hint that the spell should do damage to more than just the target, but it is still vague.