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You can always play a Shoony! As if you needed another reason :)
I can't really imagine anything more embarrassing in the current rule set than playing an anthropomorphic pug. Ugh!
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You can always play a Shoony! As if you needed another reason :)I can't really imagine anything more embarrassing in the current rule set than playing an anthropomorphic pug. Ugh!
Speak for yourself, I love our new doggo overlords and I accept them with love.
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You can always play a Shoony! As if you needed another reason :)I can't really imagine anything more embarrassing in the current rule set than playing an anthropomorphic pug. Ugh!
Perhaps a Necromancer who focuses their efforts on exclusively collecting the bodies of these creatures to raise as Skeletons to do their bidding. Have you SEEN what a pug skull looks like?!
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Shoony are neat, but I am a little disappointed that the current options for enhancing improvised weapons are tied to them. Being good at picking up a chair and hitting someone with it doesn't strike me as something that should be based on species.
Hopefully the archetype adds some compelling mechanics to them. Right now improvised weapons are really, really bad outside very low levels (and even there they're still pretty bad).
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Perhaps a Necromancer who focuses their efforts on exclusively collecting the bodies of these creatures to raise as Skeletons to do their bidding. Have you SEEN what a pug skull looks like?!You can always play a Shoony! As if you needed another reason :)I can't really imagine anything more embarrassing in the current rule set than playing an anthropomorphic pug. Ugh!
A Shoony that raises Shoony Skeletons and Zombies in his undead army and takes them into distant lands?
He can send his Shoony goonies to the boonies!
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Perhaps a Necromancer who focuses their efforts on exclusively collecting the bodies of these creatures to raise as Skeletons to do their bidding. Have you SEEN what a pug skull looks like?!You can always play a Shoony! As if you needed another reason :)I can't really imagine anything more embarrassing in the current rule set than playing an anthropomorphic pug. Ugh!A Shoony that raises Shoony Skeletons and Zombies in his undead army and takes them into distant lands?
He can send his Shoony goonies to the boonies!
That's loony.
A constant -2 penalty is pretty hard to work with.I don't think a -2 on attack should stop you from playing that character. I cannot imagine you will be any less deadly.The Weapon Improviser sounds like a lot of fun.
However, I am very concerned it will become the only option to negate improvised weapon penalties.
Losing a class feat and the opportunity to select an archetype is a steep price to pay when I just want my alchemist/barbarian to use a barrel of ale as a greatclub.
I think you may have unfortunately missed the joke. :)
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The Weapon Improviser sounds like a lot of fun.
However, I am very concerned it will become the only option to negate improvised weapon penalties.
Losing a class feat and the opportunity to select an archetype is a steep price to pay when I just want my alchemist/barbarian to use a barrel of ale as a greatclub.
Why not ask if you can reinforce the casket to make it durable enough that it can be treated as an actual greatclub? Make it so it can't be described as "something that wasn’t built to be a weapon" and it is, by definition, not an improvised weapon.
Why not ask if you can reinforce the casket to make it durable enough that it can be treated as an actual greatclub? Make it so it can't be described as "something that wasn’t built to be a weapon" and it is, by definition, not an improvised weapon.The Weapon Improviser sounds like a lot of fun.
However, I am very concerned it will become the only option to negate improvised weapon penalties.
Losing a class feat and the opportunity to select an archetype is a steep price to pay when I just want my alchemist/barbarian to use a barrel of ale as a greatclub.
I've done this. Works great if you have a GM willing to work with you on your concept.
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Why not ask if you can reinforce the casket to make it durable enough that it can be treated as an actual greatclub? Make it so it can't be described as "something that wasn’t built to be a weapon" and it is, by definition, not an improvised weapon.The Weapon Improviser sounds like a lot of fun.
However, I am very concerned it will become the only option to negate improvised weapon penalties.
Losing a class feat and the opportunity to select an archetype is a steep price to pay when I just want my alchemist/barbarian to use a barrel of ale as a greatclub.
There's no provision in the rules for this. You can do *anything* if you have a GM that works with you. That's not helpful here.
The game needs a general feat that negates improvised weapon penalties. At the very least, something like Catch Off Guard, Throw Anything, or Rough And Ready. I'm hoping Advanced Player's Guide will have one, but PaizoCon panel did not discuss new skill/general feats
Why not ask if you can reinforce the casket to make it durable enough that it can be treated as an actual greatclub? Make it so it can't be described as "something that wasn’t built to be a weapon" and it is, by definition, not an improvised weapon.There's no provision in the rules for this. You can do *anything* if you have a GM that works with you. That's not helpful here.
The game needs a general feat that negates improvised weapon penalties. At the very least, something like Catch Off Guard, Throw Anything, or Rough And Ready. I'm hoping Advanced Player's Guide will have one, but PaizoCon panel did not discuss new skill/general feats
Why does your GM not want to work with you? It's a tabletop game, not a video game. Innovation is permitted, perhaps even expected.
They have mentioned that the APG will include the first 19th level General Feat. So there are General Feats, though the nature of them remains unclear.
Highly intrigued what those could be.
Outside of Proficiency/Speed increases, my best guess would be high-level generic reactions, but it's hard to conceptualize anything outside of that.
I am assuming you are meaning ONLY a General, as in, not a Skill Feat.
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They have mentioned that the APG will include the first 19th level General Feat. So there are General Feats, though the nature of them remains unclear.Highly intrigued what those could be.
Outside of Proficiency/Speed increases, my best guess would be high-level generic reactions, but it's hard to conceptualize anything outside of that.
I am assuming you are meaning ONLY a General, as in, not a Skill Feat.
Diehard With a Vengeance
Why not ask if you can reinforce the casket to make it durable enough that it can be treated as an actual greatclub? Make it so it can't be described as "something that wasn’t built to be a weapon" and it is, by definition, not an improvised weapon.The Weapon Improviser sounds like a lot of fun.
However, I am very concerned it will become the only option to negate improvised weapon penalties.
Losing a class feat and the opportunity to select an archetype is a steep price to pay when I just want my alchemist/barbarian to use a barrel of ale as a greatclub.
There's no provision in the rules for this. You can do *anything* if you have a GM that works with you. That's not helpful here.
The game needs a general feat that negates improvised weapon penalties. At the very least, something like Catch Off Guard, Throw Anything, or Rough And Ready. I'm hoping Advanced Player's Guide will have one, but PaizoCon panel did not discuss new skill/general feats
A general feat to use improvised weapons would probably just negate the usefulness of an archetype that does it. And an archetype seems better in general for a character who really wants to specialize in it, compared to the Shoony where their feat is less of a specialist and more of a "I don't have my weapon right now, but I'm still capable of fighting".
A general feat to use improvised weapons would probably just negate the usefulness of an archetype that does it. And an archetype seems better in general for a character who really wants to specialize in it, compared to the Shoony where their feat is less of a specialist and more of a "I don't have my weapon right now, but I'm still capable of fighting".
I don't necessarily want to be Jackie Chan. I just want to clobber people with my barrel.
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What, if anything, do we know/speculate about the Investigator multiclass archetype? Specifically, the ability score prerequisites? DEX and INT or just INT?
Almost certainly just Int. The final version has all martial weapons and no real indication beyond only getting light armor that they're even supposed to favor Dex. At least not that we've seen yet.
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Diehard With a VengeanceThey have mentioned that the APG will include the first 19th level General Feat. So there are General Feats, though the nature of them remains unclear.Highly intrigued what those could be.
Outside of Proficiency/Speed increases, my best guess would be high-level generic reactions, but it's hard to conceptualize anything outside of that.
I am assuming you are meaning ONLY a General, as in, not a Skill Feat.
Now I'm going to be disappointed if that isn't one lol
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My personal wish is your character stops aging. They just become so epic they become an immortal hero.
What, if anything, do we know/speculate about the Investigator multiclass archetype? Specifically, the ability score prerequisites? DEX and INT or just INT?Almost certainly just Int. The final version has all martial weapons and no real indication beyond only getting light armor that they're even supposed to favor Dex. At least not that we've seen yet.
All martial weapons? That's interesting. In the playtest the Investigator pretty much filled the same niche as the Rogue. This makes me think that they have shifted that a bit.
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A general feat to use improvised weapons would probably just negate the usefulness of an archetype that does it. And an archetype seems better in general for a character who really wants to specialize in it, compared to the Shoony where their feat is less of a specialist and more of a "I don't have my weapon right now, but I'm still capable of fighting".I don't necessarily want to be Jackie Chan. I just want to clobber people with my barrel.
You can already do that.
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Diehard With a VengeanceThey have mentioned that the APG will include the first 19th level General Feat. So there are General Feats, though the nature of them remains unclear.Highly intrigued what those could be.
Outside of Proficiency/Speed increases, my best guess would be high-level generic reactions, but it's hard to conceptualize anything outside of that.
I am assuming you are meaning ONLY a General, as in, not a Skill Feat.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who likes this joke.
One of my players wanted a custom feat chain for Diehard and my writeup was littered with jokes like this.
I'm not sure Paizo could get away with it, though. :)
You can already do that.A general feat to use improvised weapons would probably just negate the usefulness of an archetype that does it. And an archetype seems better in general for a character who really wants to specialize in it, compared to the Shoony where their feat is less of a specialist and more of a "I don't have my weapon right now, but I'm still capable of fighting".I don't necessarily want to be Jackie Chan. I just want to clobber people with my barrel.
At a significant penalty with no way to offset it unless you play a Rare ancestry.
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At a significant penalty with no way to offset it unless you play a Rare ancestry.You can already do that.A general feat to use improvised weapons would probably just negate the usefulness of an archetype that does it. And an archetype seems better in general for a character who really wants to specialize in it, compared to the Shoony where their feat is less of a specialist and more of a "I don't have my weapon right now, but I'm still capable of fighting".I don't necessarily want to be Jackie Chan. I just want to clobber people with my barrel.
But you can use them.
If you want to use them as effectively as actual weapons then we’re moving to Jackie Chain territory and then some.
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I have to admit, "I want improvised weapons to be as effective as regular weapons but I don't want some weird fighting style" is a strange request, to me.
Improvised weapons are improvised because they suck. If they didn't suck, they would just be weapons.
Something that makes improvised weapons not suck is basically by definition a weird fighting style.
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All martial weapons? That's interesting. In the playtest the Investigator pretty much filled the same niche as the Rogue. This makes me think that they have shifted that a bit.
That sounds really cool to me. Felt like the playtest investigator was way too close to the rogue.
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That sounds really cool to me. Felt like the playtest investigator was way too close to the rogue.
All martial weapons? That's interesting. In the playtest the Investigator pretty much filled the same niche as the Rogue. This makes me think that they have shifted that a bit.
I agree. The more I hear about this book, the more excited I am.
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I have to admit, "I want improvised weapons to be as effective as regular weapons but I don't want some weird fighting style" is a strange request, to me.
Improvised weapons are improvised because they suck. If they didn't suck, they would just be weapons.
Something that makes improvised weapons not suck is basically by definition a weird fighting style.
I never made such a request. At all. An improvised weapon with no penalties is essentially a simple weapon with no traits. The issue lies with the cost of enabling a character concept.
The Weapon Improviser sounds like a lot of fun, but it's overkill for some character concepts. Dedications have a high opportunity cost; they're not a one-size-fits-all solution. This is why I'm hoping APG will also have a general feat.
The Juggle feat and Juggler Dedication handled this perfectly. If juggling items is part of your character concept, you can select the Juggle feat. But if you want to specialize in using the feat and get access to more cool and useful abilities, then you can take the Juggler Dedication.
When you're trying fit together different pieces of the game to create a character concept, the sizes of the available pieces make a huge difference.
That sounds really cool to me. Felt like the playtest investigator was way too close to the rogue.
All martial weapons? That's interesting. In the playtest the Investigator pretty much filled the same niche as the Rogue. This makes me think that they have shifted that a bit.
I'm not sure if you or Gisher got to see it in actual play, but it actually plays nothing like a Rogue and that's coming from someone that thought the same until I did see it in play.
Don't get me wrong, I welcome the changes, but I'm currently running a PC who's on the Playtest class and there's also a Rogue in the party and they're really different in practice.
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I never made such a request. At all. An improvised weapon with no penalties is essentially a simple weapon with no traits. The issue lies with the cost of enabling a character concept.
The Weapon Improviser sounds like a lot of fun, but it's overkill for some character concepts. Dedications have a high opportunity cost; they're not a one-size-fits-all solution. This is why I'm hoping APG will also have a general feat.
The Juggle feat and Juggler Dedication handled this perfectly. If juggling items is part of your character concept, you can select the Juggle feat. But if you want to specialize in using the feat and get access to more cool and useful abilities, then you can take the Juggler Dedication.
When you're trying fit together different pieces of the game to create a character concept, the sizes of the available pieces make a huge difference.
If your goal is to carry around a specific barrel with you wherever you go and not to use whatever items are on-hand each combat, it sounds like you want to be less of an improvised weapon fighter and more of an unusual weapon fighter. Maybe what you should be asking for is a method for turning a non-weapon item into a weapon to remove the penalty.
Like I said before, you should work with your GM to see if you can perform a Crafting activity during downtime, or find a master woodwoorker and pay them to build you a specialty barrel that fits your needs.
Besides, the biggest problem with improvised weapons right now isn't the -2, it's the fact that AFAIK you can't put runes on them.
Besides, the biggest problem with improvised weapons right now isn't the -2, it's the fact that AFAIK you can't put runes on them.
I haven't found any reason why improvised weapons can't have runes. Improvised weapons couldn't have enhancements in 1st Edition because only masterwork weapons can be made into magical weapons. Theoretically, you could just slap a rune on anything. One of the reasons I love the rune system.
Besides, the biggest problem with improvised weapons right now isn't the -2, it's the fact that AFAIK you can't put runes on them.I haven't found any reason why improvised weapons can't have runes. Improvised weapons couldn't have enhancements in 1st Edition because only masterwork weapons can be made into magical weapons. Theoretically, you could just slap a rune on anything. One of the reasons I love the rune system.
If you attack with something that wasn’t built to be a weapon, such as a chair or a vase, you’re making an attack with an improvised weapon. You take a –2 item penalty to attack rolls with an improvised weapon. The GM determines the amount and type of damage the attack deals, if any, as well as any weapon traits the improvised weapon should have. Improvised weapons are simple weapons.
Emphasis mine. I interpret this to mean that improvised weapons aren't weapons until you make an attack with it, similar to how thrown weapons aren't ranged weapons until you throw them. And all weapon runes have some sort of variant of "Usage: etched onto a weapon".
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Besides, the biggest problem with improvised weapons right now isn't the -2, it's the fact that AFAIK you can't put runes on them.I haven't found any reason why improvised weapons can't have runes. Improvised weapons couldn't have enhancements in 1st Edition because only masterwork weapons can be made into magical weapons. Theoretically, you could just slap a rune on anything. One of the reasons I love the rune system.If you attack with something that wasn’t built to be a weapon, such as a chair or a vase, you’re making an attack with an improvised weapon. You take a –2 item penalty to attack rolls with an improvised weapon. The GM determines the amount and type of damage the attack deals, if any, as well as any weapon traits the improvised weapon should have. Improvised weapons are simple weapons.Emphasis mine. I interpret this to mean that improvised weapons aren't weapons until you make an attack with it, similar to how thrown weapons aren't ranged weapons until you throw them. And all weapon runes have some sort of variant of "Usage: etched onto a weapon".
Spoilsport. If I want to put a Fiery rune on a bowl of nachos, you can't stop me!
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All martial weapons? That's interesting. In the playtest the Investigator pretty much filled the same niche as the Rogue. This makes me think that they have shifted that a bit.What, if anything, do we know/speculate about the Investigator multiclass archetype? Specifically, the ability score prerequisites? DEX and INT or just INT?Almost certainly just Int. The final version has all martial weapons and no real indication beyond only getting light armor that they're even supposed to favor Dex. At least not that we've seen yet.
They have an action now allowing them to 'pre-roll' an attack, and then decide if they want to use it or do something else. If they do use it, they can add Int instead of Str or Dex to the attack roll.
No idea on extra damage or other effects to go along with that, though I'd hope and expect there are some.
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Besides, the biggest problem with improvised weapons right now isn't the -2, it's the fact that AFAIK you can't put runes on them.
Which is part of why the ABP variant rule is superior and I never want to play a game without it ;P No need to worry about if your weapon has enough mandatory magic slapped on it, and a master fighter doesn't suddenly lose all their damage because they had to use a normal sword for once (or a chair in this case).
Another thing about putting runes on 'improvised weapons' that would be wierd is the shifting rune. That could get wierd real quick.
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Besides, the biggest problem with improvised weapons right now isn't the -2, it's the fact that AFAIK you can't put runes on them.I haven't found any reason why improvised weapons can't have runes. Improvised weapons couldn't have enhancements in 1st Edition because only masterwork weapons can be made into magical weapons. Theoretically, you could just slap a rune on anything. One of the reasons I love the rune system.If you attack with something that wasn’t built to be a weapon, such as a chair or a vase, you’re making an attack with an improvised weapon. You take a –2 item penalty to attack rolls with an improvised weapon. The GM determines the amount and type of damage the attack deals, if any, as well as any weapon traits the improvised weapon should have. Improvised weapons are simple weapons.Emphasis mine. I interpret this to mean that improvised weapons aren't weapons until you make an attack with it, similar to how thrown weapons aren't ranged weapons until you throw them. And all weapon runes have some sort of variant of "Usage: etched onto a weapon".
Emphasis mine. Seems improvised weapons are weapons. I don't mind either way, but it does seem that the very source you are quoting says exactly the opposite of what you said...
Page 278: Under Improvised Weapons, add the sentence
“Improvised weapons are simple weapons.” This dictates
the proficiency modifier you use.
Emphasis mine.
Runes are etched on items.
Weapons benefit from weapon runes etched on them.
Improvised weapons are simple weapons.
Therefore, improvised weapons that are items benefit from weapon runes.
A halfling is not an item.
Therefore, you cannot etch a weapon rune on a halfling.
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I tend to agree with Cyrad and Elias here.
The phrasing used: "Improvised weapons are simple weapons."
That's pretty cut and dry if you ask me, otherwise they would have chosen less assertive wording such as: "Improvised weapons are treated as simple weapons for the purposes of XXXXXX."
You will ALWAYS need to work with your GM in order to have them help fashion the Damage Dice, Traits, Damage Type, Reach, etc for the Improvised Weapon but I don't see ANYTHING stopping a Character from ripping a door off its hinges and then having some VERY confused spellcaster imbue it with Weapon Runes. Sure, it won't be nearly as accurate as a normal Weapon would be but the Improvised quality does not seem to disqualify it from having Runes.
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I would on the other hand look at the phrase "if you make an attack with something that wasn't built to be a weapon" as an indication that the thing you are attacking with is not a weapon, it's just being treated as one for that attack. That bit about improvised weapons being simple weapons comes at the end of a whole section specifically talking about that, so it seems reasonable to be.
A +1 striking ming vase is, as a long-time Worms fan, hilarious to me, but also stretches my verisimilitude a bit.
On the other hand, if someone want to make a Crafting check to convert an improvised weapon into a more effective weapon and then add runes to it, I think that would be fine.
Sooo... if you wanted to interpret the improvised weapon rules to allow putting weapon runes onto nearly every item in existence, what silly/fun things could be done?
If everything is technically an improvised weapon, can the Shifting rune disguise a weapon as a harmless object - saying you shifted it into an improvised weapon?
Can I etch Ghost touch onto everything to allow an incorporeal creature to interact with nearly all items normally? How about using it to add armor (along with armor runes) to a ghost? If I etch it onto a wall, would it prevent an incorporeal creature from passing through?
Is etching a Holy Rune onto an inconspicuous object a new way to detect evil? (the guy who reacts poorly to picking up the holy spoon and unexpectedly becoming enfeebled 2 is evil, get him!).
I feel bad I derailed this discussion into a riveting one about improvised weapons.
I'm hoping we'll see a lot of options in the APG. Maybe we will get something like gloves of improvised might?
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Runes on improvised weapons helps if you want to be 'that guy who fights with a candlestick instead of a club'
But it doesn't really help someone who wants to be good at picking weapons up off the ground to use. Hopefully the archetype does that somehow.
Or some sort of handwraps analog that can be enchanted as weapons and transfers the enchantments to improvised weapons.
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Runes on improvised weapons helps if you want to be 'that guy who fights with a candlestick instead of a club'
But it doesn't really help someone who wants to be good at picking weapons up off the ground to use. Hopefully the archetype does that somehow.
Or some sort of handwraps analog that can be enchanted as weapons and transfers the enchantments to improvised weapons.
I could see a feat that simply states something along the lines of "Any runes applied to handwraps of mighty blows you are wearing also apply to any improvised weapon you hold."
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I could see a feat that simply states something along the lines of "Any runes applied to handwraps of mighty blows you are wearing also apply to any improvised weapon you hold."Runes on improvised weapons helps if you want to be 'that guy who fights with a candlestick instead of a club'
But it doesn't really help someone who wants to be good at picking weapons up off the ground to use. Hopefully the archetype does that somehow.
Or some sort of handwraps analog that can be enchanted as weapons and transfers the enchantments to improvised weapons.
THAT, on the other hand, makes perfect sense and doesn't bother my verisimilitude at all.
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Handwraps, I believe, are also not able to take the "shifting" rune. Which solves the problem of having the man with magic gloves transform your chair into a sofa by swinging it at you menacingly.
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They have an action now allowing them to 'pre-roll' an attack, and then decide if they want to use it or do something else. If they do use it, they can add Int instead of Str or Dex to the attack roll.All martial weapons? That's interesting. In the playtest the Investigator pretty much filled the same niche as the Rogue. This makes me think that they have shifted that a bit.What, if anything, do we know/speculate about the Investigator multiclass archetype? Specifically, the ability score prerequisites? DEX and INT or just INT?Almost certainly just Int. The final version has all martial weapons and no real indication beyond only getting light armor that they're even supposed to favor Dex. At least not that we've seen yet.
This is super cool. In a way, it's almost like a 4th action, because if you don't like what you can see, you can re-allocate your three actions towards various different tactics.
Just sold me on the class, no matter what else it comes with!