Cheapest way to restore hp, a math question


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Shadow Lodge

The devs don't like any form of cheap healing. Though with a new bloodline, Phoenix, we have a way to get infinite healing.

Words of Power Sorcerer(Crossblooded, Draconic and Phoenix). With Flame Jet and Cone gives you a 10ft cone cantrip that will deal 1d4+1 fire damage, or, if using Selected so it would be a single target spell, you could deal 1d4+2 with Point Blank Shot.

With the Phoenix Bloodline arcana you can instead heal half the fire damage your spell would normally deal.


So, the cheapest form of healing is rest. Just takes a lot of time doing nothing. 8^)

The second way is freely renewable class abilities. Oracle (Life) shenanigans. Similar to a regenerating protector familiar. Path of Glory may fall into this category. Rebuke death for below 0 HP folks.

Next are limited class abilities like channelling and lay on hands use daily free resources. Spells would follow here.

Magic items follow.


Low cost items like wands of infernal healing are hard to beat. Cure lgt wnds has a faster recovery rate. Aegis of recovery can save your Bacon.

For moderate cost magic items, look at renewable talismans or items that polymorph you into a form with fast healing. Going to the positive energy plane also works. I also like the cracked ioun stone with 1pt regen per hour $3400 (IMO the 1pt per hr is just a bonus to its actual powers).


Piccolo wrote:

Ish. Yet another reason why I ban Summoners. They're broken.

No, the cleric doesn't have undead domain. Currently she worships Pharasma, and has the death and healing domains. Might switch to urgathoa and have the death and magic domains instead.

A necromancer of Pharasma is another name for Ex-cleric. Pharasma hates undead and despises the creation of them. Urgathoa, Orcus and Circiatto are optimal for a necromancer. They all get the undead domain and can grant some amazing boons. Anubis grants both the death and inevitable domains but not the undead domain, but it's the closest you can get to that mixture(undead and inevitable) without taking separatist cleric.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Piccolo wrote:

Ish. Yet another reason why I ban Summoners. They're broken.

No, the cleric doesn't have undead domain. Currently she worships Pharasma, and has the death and healing domains. Might switch to urgathoa and have the death and magic domains instead.

The cleric worships Pharasma and wants to make an undead army? He will become an ex-cleric as soon as he starts doing that. She despise undead.

Quote:
Pharasma’s temples are gothic cathedrals, usually located near a town’s graveyard, although a single bleak stone in an empty field or graveyard can serve as a shrine. Her faithful dress in funereal clothes for religious ceremonies, always black (regardless of the local custom) and accented with silver and tiny vials of holy water. They despise the undead as abominations to the natural order. Her holy book is The Bones Land in a Spiral; much of it was written long ago by a prophet, and many of its predictions are so vague that there is much debate about what events they foretell or if they have already passed. Other sections were added later and deal with safe childbirth, disposal of the dead to prevent undeath, proper ways to perform auguries, and so on.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Coidzor wrote:
Mudfoot wrote:
Given that a spell component pouch has a listed weight (2 lbs) it obviously can't hold an infinite supply of everything. It would be handy if it could, of course. The MC of Contact Entity IV for a Star-Spawn of Cthulhu is the corpse of a 10HD humanoid, which has no listed cost. My spell component pouch is full of dead frost giants*.

Funnily enough, a level 1 basic healing spell with a spell component that's more flavor than anything is not equivalent to a higher level spell that's meant to require some amount of murder or skullduggery.

Or do we have some definitive statements straight from the horse's mouth on the subject of Infernal Healing and that the spell component is intended as a serious barrier to casting the spell?

Actually, it is a 1st level spell with a costly component (1 unholy water) or a flavorful component.

It lists the costly component first. It is a bit absurd to have a costly component is the other can be brought in 10K uses bottles for a few pence at any street corner.


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Piccolo wrote:

Okay, a normal wand of CLW does 1d8+1 of cure per charge, at 750 a pop.

If you up the caster level to 3rd, you do 1d8+3hp of cure per charge, but it costs more.

The 5000gp diamond that you can reuse ups the caster level by 2 for conjuration healing spells, I got it out of an old 3.5 book Magic of Faerun. Get it?

If your using 3.5 material then wands of lesser vigor are the way to go for healing Vs GP. Every charge of the wand heals 11 HP over 11 rounds via fast healing and costs the same as a CLW wand.

They require no special or expensive components.


LordKailas wrote:
Piccolo wrote:

Ish. Yet another reason why I ban Summoners. They're broken.

No, the cleric doesn't have undead domain. Currently she worships Pharasma, and has the death and healing domains. Might switch to urgathoa and have the death and magic domains instead.

A necromancer of Pharasma is another name for Ex-cleric. Pharasma hates undead and despises the creation of them. Urgathoa, Orcus and Circiatto are optimal for a necromancer. They all get the undead domain and can grant some amazing boons. Anubis grants both the death and inevitable domains but not the undead domain, but it's the closest you can get to that mixture(undead and inevitable) without taking separatist cleric.

I don't count mindless automatons as evil or their creation as evil.

If you don't have an Int score, you can't be evil since there is no mind to dream up sadism. If a being is nothing more than a robot, then I don't count it as evil. Creation of them might be unlawful, depending on where you live. The dead don't need their former bodies, and there's no soul involved.

Diego, I am the GM. What I say goes in my campaigns.


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Ah, so running your game how you and the players enjoy is 100% correct, always. But using the name of something (like Pharasma) with house ruled chamges (it is okay for clerics of Pharasma to create undead, which aren't defined as evil) throws off folks here who are not aware of these differences.


Piccolo wrote:
I don't count mindless automatons as evil or their creation as evil.

Pharasma doesn't care about evil, she's neutral, not good. She just really hates undead, since they mess up the orderly proceedings of her judgement and the circle of souls.


Evil has little to do with it. Pharasma is True Neutral and hates the creation of undead. It's a large part of her portfolio, to the point that the death domain gets modified when you worship Pharasma, by swapping out all of the undead creation spells for other spells:
animate dead -> speak with dead
create undead -> antilife shell
create greater undead -> symbol of death

Certainly as the DM you're welcome to re-write the gods however you please, but it is a major re-write in terms of this deity.


This post is missing the main issue: a party is hamstrung without a standard first aid kit cleric. Which is dumb.

I'd ask the DM if the cleric can still spontaneously cast Cure spells. Or let the druid swap Summon for Cure. Or let a sorcerer learn Cure Light Wounds.

It's such an essential part of the game. HP are the most important character resource by far. Lacking a specific version of a specific character class should not hurt this much. The fact that it does speaks of a serious issue in the original game's design.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

No, the lack of a "first aid kit cleric" isn't a problem. A paladin or a bard can easily replace him. At later levels you get craft wand and make your happy sticks of CLW or buy them.
The clerical spells that are really important are others: remove curse, remove disease, restoration, cure blindness and so on.


Diego Rossi wrote:
No, the lack of a "first aid kit cleric" isn't a problem. A paladin or a bard can easily replace him.

"Easily" might be a bit of a stretch, but I agree that there are some alternatives.

My point remains, however, that there are not enough and that making more would not destroy the game.
I'd much rather see some sort of wandering Grey Priest, staunching the wounds of battle and raising up the honorable bones of those he could not save over some gimmicky rule-shenanigans involving the repeated use of demon blood or large precious stones. That feels like a video game, and if I wanted to play one of those, I'd do that instead.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

Pathfinder has plenty of options for classes to be healers of some sort. Life Oracle, Shaman, Witch, Bard, Paladin, Druid and Cleric. Heck with the Phoenix and Unicorn bloodlines sorcerers can play that role too. If no one wants to play any of them or would rather not have to play that particular role, then the game offers the option to use other resources to augment/supplement natural healing. I'm GM for a party that is playing Shattered Star, and they have no healer. Resting to recover is a painful and long process.


Piccolo wrote:

I am trying to figure out if a given option is efficient or not.

A happy stick costs 750gp, and restores 5.5hp per charge.

An amped up happy stick costs 6125 for the first one, and then 1125 for each one thereafter since we can reuse a 5000gp diamond to up the caster level by 2, resulting in 1d8+5hp restored (9.5hp per charge).

If neither version of a wand of CLW works, we could try a wand of Infernal Healing, but that costs 2000gp each, for 10hp and 40gp a charge (50 charges).

Which option is more efficient?

So depending on your budget and if you use Kingdom building rules there is an interesting option that gives you unlimited healing per day for about 25k gold https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building/settlem ents/buildings/

Extra-Dimensional
Benefit(s) the building exists on a plane of its own.

Create 190 magic (19,000 gp); Time 1 day

This building is in its own demi-plane. The entrance to the building must clearly be a doorway or archway, and the entrance must not be accessible from any other direction (for example, the doorway to the demi-plane could be the front door to a large blue box but couldn’t be the archway at one end of an alley). Passing through the door transports any creature into the demiplane, which follows the rules of the lesser create demiplane spell. More powerful demiplanes, using create demiplane (217 magic (21,700 gp)) and greater create demiplane (241 magic (24,100 gp) may be constructed. You have to use the Greater option which will allow you to do this:

Energy: Your plane gains the (minor) negative- or positive- dominant energy trait. A plane cannot have both the negative-dominant and positive-dominant energy traits.

Which results in:

A minor positive-dominant plane is a riotous explosion of life in all its forms. Colors are brighter, fires are hotter, noises are louder, and sensations are more intense as a result of the positive energy infusing the plane. All living individuals in a positive-dominant plane gain fast healing 2.

Using the example given of the Blue police call box I would say something similar to a briefcase that opens up and houses a menagerie of random creatures you put in it wouldnt be outside the scope of options or failing that put said blue box inside a portable hole. However this is done after combat you walk into your pocket bar play a game of pool and come out feeling great


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Diego Rossi wrote:

No, the lack of a "first aid kit cleric" isn't a problem. A paladin or a bard can easily replace him. At later levels you get craft wand and make your happy sticks of CLW or buy them.

The clerical spells that are really important are others: remove curse, remove disease, restoration, cure blindness and so on.

So, funny story. We just started a Strange Aeons AP a few months ago. Party consists of 1 paladin, 1 bard, 1 medium, 1 rogue, 1 wizard (who said he was going to be a cleric, but changed his mind), and 1 monk (my character). I had concerns that without a cleric we wouldn't have enough healing but the GM assured me that it would be fine.

First adventure, we realized nobody could heal. Paladins don't start with lay on hands. Our Bard didn't have Cure Light Wounds. Even if he did, that would of been 2 per day. That doesn't exactly make up for a 1d6 channel that heals the entire party. Channel is an extremely strong ability, especially at low levels.

Even after I changed out the Monk for a Druid after the first run we were hurting for healing. The bard picked up CLW, and once we hit 2nd level the Paladin could lay on hands...once a day.

Being able to cast 2nd level spells didn't really help things. Druids don't get cure moderate wounds as a second level spell. Bards don't get 2nd level spells until 4th level. So our party has been using up 2 characters worth of 1st level spells for 3 levels. And since we're in Strange Aeons there is no such thing as buying a wand in the first 3 levels.

The funny thing is my druid has Druidic Herbalism. If I had spells left at the end of a day I could turn them into free potions of CLW. But due to circumstances the party was encouraged to push through the adventure quickly...before we all starved to death. There wasn't any real opportunity for downtime or natural healing. Though we did tick off the natural healing and it was figured into the healing we did accomplish.


Quixote wrote:

This post is missing the main issue: a party is hamstrung without a standard first aid kit cleric. Which is dumb.

I'd ask the DM if the cleric can still spontaneously cast Cure spells. Or let the druid swap Summon for Cure. Or let a sorcerer learn Cure Light Wounds.

It's such an essential part of the game. HP are the most important character resource by far. Lacking a specific version of a specific character class should not hurt this much. The fact that it does speaks of a serious issue in the original game's design.

Really, I don't care. Clerics do more than simply heal. Lesser restoration, various buff spells, hurting or controlling undead, etc.

And I don't think of it as a flaw. Just like it's not a flaw that we need a warrior, an arcane caster of some sort, a skill monkey etc. I consider it a bonus, since this means the PC's work together by design. No one class is perfect, they all need each other. That results in longer running campaigns btw, since when someone is absent, you're hurting. That means closer friendships.


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Considering all these homerules and other changes to the setting - several of which are relevant to the question - and the fact that the original question wasn't even actually about rules, but math, this really shouldn't be in the Rules Questions forum.

Probably Advice, or maybe even Homebrew.


Pan, definitely not a Kitsune wrote:

Considering all these homerules and other changes to the setting - several of which are relevant to the question - and the fact that the original question wasn't even actually about rules, but math, this really shouldn't be in the Rules Questions forum.

Probably Advice, or maybe even Homebrew.

I wasn't the one who altered the conversation. I just wanted to know about the math.

You imply that I have LOTS of houserules that alter things. Most GM's do, in fact. Mine are almost entirely irrelevant, with only a few exceptions, to the thread. If you have a problem with this, I suggest you examine your motivations for posting the above note.

When I post anything online, I try to divest myself of assumptions about other people's motivations for wording things. Since I don't have access to vocal tones, facial expressions, body language, I can't put any context to a given statement. To be frank, it would be FANTASTIC if the rest of humanity had that level of awareness, it would save a lot of drama and bad feelings.


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Piccolo wrote:
I wasn't the one who altered the conversation. I just wanted to know about the math.

Math would already be "advice", since you're not asking how rules work, but which choice is more advantageous.

Also, half of the math was based on D&D 3.5, which isn't pathfinder rules, making the rules forum the wrong place anyway (WotC would be 3pp, if anything).


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I think the 'Rules' question has been more than answered and the thread is wandering into Advice or Homebrew forum topics along with too much posturing.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Representative

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I have locked this thread, as it seems agreed that the original question was answered.

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