So this is my first attempt at a multiclass archetype build for PFS, so I thought I'd post it up and get some input. I am pretty sure that it is PFS legal, but I may have missed something. I eliminated several options I would normally take, but are not PFS legal, so I think I verified everything. Also, I'm kinda stuck as to what to do after level 10 (assuming he survives that long, that is...). I suppose he could Fighter dip for extra feat goodness, but would lose some spells. At any rate, the concept is an archer build with a companion to add some additional action economy and protection for the squishy ranged character, along with a bit of spellcasting and social skills... A large hurdle, but I am hopeful that it works. Let me know what you think! Or don't, that's okay too.
Unnamed Character (I will get to this).
Human Monk: Zen Archer 3/Inquisitor: Sacred Huntsman 9
Starting stats:
STR 12
DEX 13
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 20 (18 + float)
CHA 7
Traits:
Magical Knack
Deadeye Bowman
Deity: Erastil
Inquisition: Conversion
Animal Companion: Babou, Small Cat: (Ocelot, of course!)
Level, class level, Feats:
1: Zen Archer 1: precise shot (ZA bonus), point blank shot (lvl), imp. unarmed strike (M), perfect shot (ZA), Dodge (racial)
2: Huntsman 1: No feat, sadface. Animal Companion, etc.
3: Zen Archer 2: Weapon Focus (compound crossbow) (ZA free), Rapid Shot (ZA bonus), Deadly Aim (lvl)
4: Zen Archer 3: Point blank master (ZA free); DEX +1
5: Huntsman 2: Ranged Trip OR Ranged Disarm (lvl); (Leaning more towards Trip)
6: Huntsman 3: Intercept Charge OR Coordinated Shot (SH)
7: Huntsman 4: Boon Companion (lvl) (recover lost companion levels from Zen Archer dip)
8: Huntsman 5: No feat, sadface. CHA +1
9: Huntsman 6: Clustered shots (lvl); Coordinated Shot OR Intercept Charge (SH free teamwork)
10-12 Huntsman 7-9. Relentless Shot at 11 and teamwork feat TBD at 12, based on experience with build at that time, assuming character survival. Stat at 12 doesnt really matter, but can be assigned to any odd number created with magic gear.
My reasoning here: the Magical Knack keeps me from losing too much spell power by adding back my 3 level dip to my CL for spell effects (not to spell list or spells per day, I know). Deadeye Bowman means that my animal companion (or anyone, really) does not give soft cover to a target if they are the only one providing cover. Zen Archer at lvl 3 uses WIS to attack bonus for ranged instead of DEX, and the Monk bonus gives WIS to AC and CMD while unarmored. Zen Archer's flurry of shots gives multiple attacks at lower penalty than rapid shot until level 6 (when BAB exceeds monk level), so taking it at level 3 as the bonus feat makes sense. Conversion Inquisition adds WIS to Intimidate, Diplomacy, and Bluff instead of CHA, plus 1/2 inquisitor level from stern gaze. At Inquisitor level 3, I add DEX and WIS to my initiative, basically giving me improved initiative feat +1 for free.
The concept was to try to get one stat to do the work of several, in this case WIS turns into DEX, STR, and CHA, and I think it works. His skills are fair, as he gets 8 per level (6 class, 1 race, 1 INT), which isn't awful. With I could turn WIS into INT for skill monkeyness, but couldn't find a way to do that. My thoughts on intercept charge feat is that the companion will have a very respectable AC and a 50 foot movement speed, and can therefore get in the way and block anyone coming after the archer and any spellcasters near him. The real downside is not getting clustered shot until level 9 to bypass DR, and not being able to take manyshot, but I think the companion balances out the manyshot.
Anyhow, what do you all think of the build? Alternate suggestions? Constructive criticism?
You'll have WIS to attack and AC, but not to damage. What do you plan to do about your low STR?
Past a certain level you'll be forced to always use deadly aim to do decent damage
Compound crossbow? I would hit boon companion as soon as you can; that thing won’t do much other than die until then.
Why ranged trip/disarm? Your attack bonus is OK at best and trip CMD in particular tends to be high.
I'm not familiar with the compound crossbow. Is that from a new book or is it misnamed?
Note that magical knack gives 2 caster levels back not all 3.
Increasing Cha at level 8 does not seem helpful. You use Cha for handle animal and nothing else really, and by that level you should be able to use it on your companion without needing another +1 bonus. Sure, you have nothing else pressing, but if you're planning to play past L11 then it could matter then. Magic gear doesn't usually create odd numbers.
First off you need to use a shortbow or longbow with Flurry for a Zen Archer. I assume that is what you meant instead of 'compound crossbow'
I honestly wouldn't put your ability score increases where they are. If you instead bring Wis down to 19 you could spend those three points bumping Dex to 14 AND get con to 12, which is (in my opinion) a must for any character, even a backline archer.
I'd go Str 13 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 11 Wis 17+2 Cha 7
Put 4th level ability increase in Wis and 8th level in Str.
I'd also just go 3 levels of Zen Archer right away, before swapping to Inquisitor. That way you get Wis to hit as soon as possible. I'd even suggest a 4th level of Monk for the Ki pool, allowing you to spend a swift action ki point for an extra attack when you flurry. At 5th level you would switch to Inquisitor and pick up Boon Companion then too, allowing you to have your full Animal Companion right away.
Oops! I meant compound longbow, not crossbow. Typo there.
Personally I don't see the wisdom to AC being helpful when you need to be unarmored for it, medium armor will always be better, and for the starting levels your going to want to some dexterity so you can hit something. Considering your multicasting two 3/4 BAB classes (even with three levels of monk features), you will not succeed on CDB checks vs. monster CMDs, especially not with trip and low strength/dexterity. Additionally, your base plus to hit is going to feel week compared to a pure zen archer, or a pure inquisitor with rapid fire. The coordinated shot team work feat might save you a point to hit, but even with your companion threatening your target, the benefit will still not be as strong as judgement, which is replaced by sacred huntsman. You might have a decent time hitting things while you have bane up, but after you're out of rounds, you'll need to fall back on your spells.
It is really challenging to multi class Gish classes with anything but full BAB classes. Consider Ranger + ZA for a handful of divine spells, an animal companion, and a better chance to hit overall, as well as a good number of feats.
I like the flavor of your character a lot, but if your looking for the most optimal wisdom SAD character go pure zen archer, or guided hand/crusaders flurry/linnorm style monk/cleric, even then I'm sure there's something that can make better use of high wisdom stat.
Consider the Metal Domain because I LOVE the Spell Gravity Bow.
You are getting Point Blank Master from Zen Archer, and you have an Animal Companion that knows all your Teamwork Feats. I recommend you take Snap Shot and Improved Snapshot as soon as you can. With Snapshot, you can potentially make Attacks of Opportunity with your bow, Threatening Adjacent squares. With Improved Snapshot, your bow becomes like a Reach Weapon (10' Reach). You'll need Combat Reflexes, too, of course.
For Teamwork Feats, I recommend Broken Wing Gambit and Paired Opportunist. You are getting Ranged Trip. If you and/or your Animal Companion can find a way to take Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp. Since you are thinking about Tripping, consider Coordinated Maneuvers as another Teamwork Feat: +2 on all Combat Maneuvers.
What's going to happen is that you and your AC will generate huge amounts of Attacks of Opportunity, charged with your Gravitied, Bane arrows.
Whenever either of you is attacked, both of you will get Attacks of Opportunity. Whenever anyone move out of square within 10' of you, both of you get Attacks of Opportunity. Whenever you Trip someone, both of you will get 2 Attacks of Opportunity.
Sorry for the incoming wall of text!
Syries wrote: First off you need to use a shortbow or longbow with Flurry for a Zen Archer. I assume that is what you meant instead of 'compound crossbow' Yup. I mistyped... Love for alliteration did me in there I believe.
Syries wrote: I honestly wouldn't put your ability score increases where they are. If you instead bring Wis down to 19 you could spend those three points bumping Dex to 14 AND get con to 12, which is (in my opinion) a must for any character, even a backline archer.
I'd go Str 13 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 11 Wis 17+2 Cha 7
Put 4th level ability increase in Wis and 8th level in Str.
Much better plan than mine, thank you so much!
Syries wrote: I'd also just go 3 levels of Zen Archer right away, before swapping to Inquisitor. That way you get Wis to hit as soon as possible. I'd even suggest a 4th level of Monk for the Ki pool, allowing you to spend a swift action ki point for an extra attack when you flurry. At 5th level you would switch to Inquisitor and pick up Boon Companion then too, allowing you to have your full Animal Companion right away. My thought was to get the animal companion on the field as fast as possible, getting more actions per round with a companion that is much more likely to hit than I will. I know I won't be hitting regularly until level 4, but I'm thinking that the cat can make up for that to a certain extent until WIS to hit comes on board. The additional ki pool attack is a very good suggestion. I may have to revise my build idea to incorporate that. Would you go four levels archer first, or three archer, dip to inquisitor, dip archer again, then inquisitor out? Do you think getting the companion on the field quickly is worth waiting a level for the WIS to attack roll? I dunno. That was my thought process in taking inquisitor at 2 instead of 4.
avr wrote: Why ranged trip/disarm? Your attack bonus is OK at best and trip CMD in particular tends to be high.
Because I didn't read the feats as carefully as I thought I did. I realize now that its not as synergistic as I previously, and mistakenly, believed. Thanks for pointing that out! I will have to revise those feats.
avr wrote: Note that magical knack gives 2 caster levels back not all 3.
Yup, was aware of this, but 2 is better than zero, and is pretty good for a trait. :)
avr wrote: Increasing Cha at level 8 does not seem helpful. You use Cha for handle animal and nothing else really, and by that level you should be able to use it on your companion without needing another +1 bonus. Sure, you have nothing else pressing, but if you're planning to play past L11 then it could matter then. Magic gear doesn't usually create odd numbers.
100% correct! :) I really just put it there because it was an odd number. I will be revising the build with the stats suggested by Syries, as that is a much better plan.
Lelomenia wrote: I would hit boon companion as soon as you can; that thing won’t do much other than die until then.
I had concerns with that when trying to figure out the build. I couldn't see a way to grab the boon earlier, due to my confusion about the ranged trip/disarm feats and really wanting to get them online quickly. I see now that they are really a waste of a feat because of low CMB (which for some reason I left out of my mental equations when creating this idea). Thanks for the input!
EstabanDeLaFerroVenté wrote: Personally I don't see the wisdom to AC being helpful when you need to be unarmored for it, medium armor will always be better, and for the starting levels your going to want to some dexterity so you can hit something.
Two great points, thank you! I addressed the low DEX above, but will be re-doing the stats to alleviate some of this. Regarding the WIS to AC, my plan is to only go unarmored until getting to the Inquisitor dip, and then getting into medium armor. The WIS to AC was a stopgap until I could get to higher levels. Basically, a way to avoid spending the limited PFS gold awarded on armor until I have some "extra" after weapon and other upgrades. Certainly not a good idea to try to use that for the life of the character here, so you made a great point. Also, my thinking was that I would be as far away from melee as possible, so my AC didn't have to be very high, as there would be fewer attacks coming my way.
EstabanDeLaFerroVenté wrote: The coordinated shot team work feat might save you a point to hit, but even with your companion threatening your target, the benefit will still not be as strong as judgement, which is replaced by sacred huntsman. You might have a decent time hitting things while you have bane up, but after you're out of rounds, you'll need to fall back on your spells.
I think coordinated shot will be replacing ranged trip in my build, for the specific reasons you point out. Thanks for your help!
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Consider the Metal Domain because I LOVE the Spell Gravity Bow.
You're right, gravity bow is AMAZING! The Metal elementalist arcane school gives gravity bow, but the Earth domain Metal subtype doesn't. Also, Inquisitors don't get domain spells. I am pretty well stuck with Conversion Inquiry for this build for a PFS character because of the WIS to skill thing, otherwise my diplomacy, intimidate and bluff become useless due to my CHA dump. And because you can't count on having a "face" character for PFS, I wanted to hedge my bets.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: You are getting Point Blank Master from Zen Archer, and you have an Animal Companion that knows all your Teamwork Feats. I recommend you take Snap Shot and Improved Snapshot as soon as you can. With Snapshot, you can potentially make Attacks of Opportunity with your bow, Threatening Adjacent squares. With Improved Snapshot, your bow becomes like a Reach Weapon (10' Reach). You'll need Combat Reflexes, too, of course.
For Teamwork Feats, I recommend Broken Wing Gambit and Paired Opportunist. You are getting Ranged Trip. If you and/or your Animal Companion can find a way to take Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp. Since you are thinking about Tripping, consider Coordinated Maneuvers as another Teamwork Feat: +2 on all Combat Maneuvers.
What's going to happen is that you and your AC will generate huge amounts of Attacks of Opportunity, charged with your Gravitied, Bane arrows.
Whenever either of you is attacked, both of you will get Attacks of Opportunity. Whenever anyone move out of square within 10' of you, both of you get Attacks of Opportunity. Whenever you Trip someone, both of you will get 2 Attacks of Opportunity.
I wasn't thinking about getting AOOs at all when I made this build, because ranged, but your idea is fantastic! I am going to have to investigate this concept when I change all the stats. Thanks for the suggestion!
Thanks everyone for your advice and suggestions! I'm always blown away by how helpful folks are on these forums, and how little trolling and flaming I see on here.
BoseMensch wrote: Earth domain Metal subtype doesn't [have Gravity Bow]. Oops. I didn't look at that carefully enough. I guess to get Gravity Bow, you'd have to dip a level in Ranger or something.
BoseMensch wrote: You're right, gravity bow is AMAZING! It isn't, really. Don't overvalue damage dice, it's merely a boost of 2.5 average damage - basically, Weapon Specialization that you need to activate first. Not bad if you have time to pre-buff, but not really a game changer, and not worth dipping into for.
Ranger is meh until 6th level anyways.
Gravity bow can be good if you've already got size-altering stuff on you, which can boost the damage dice even more.
If you can find one that works (Enlarge Person and Righteous Might don't), and want to accept the inevitable dex penalty.
Oh, I forgot about the dex penalty and restriction on ranged attacks.
Yeah, never mind. It sucks.
Derklord wrote: BoseMensch wrote: You're right, gravity bow is AMAZING! It isn't, really. Don't overvalue damage dice, it's merely a boost of 2.5 average damage - basically, Weapon Specialization that you need to activate first. Not bad if you have time to pre-buff, but not really a game changer, and not worth dipping into for. I've used Gravity Bow in PFS. It really is splendid. Yes, it raises the Damage Dice from 1d8 to 2d6, 4.5 to 7 = 2.5 Damage. And that, dear fellow, is splendid!
Derklord wrote: Weapon Specialization that you need to activate first. Weapon Specialization cannot be taken at all without 4 levels in Fighter and/or Brawler You only have to dip 1 level in Ranger to use a Wand of Gravity Bow.
TheGreatWot wrote: Ranger is meh until 6th level anyways. You are sorely mistaken! If the OP dips a single level in Ranger, and he gets a +2 and Fort and Reflex Saves, 5.5hp instead of his usual 4.5, +1 BAB which would not go amiss for the OP's 3/4 BAB character, and the ability to use all Ranger Wands, including Bloodhound, which gives you Scent, which lets you find Invisible opponents. I have played a character in PFS with Scent, and I have usually been the ONLY player at the table who could find Invisible opponents. This happens a large fraction of the time in PFS adventures.
I like the Freebooter Archetype. With 1 level in Freebooter, instead of Favored Enemy, you can Mark any 1 opponent as a Move Action and give the entire party, including yourself a +1 Attack and Damage against him.
Derklord wrote: Weapon Specialization that you need to activate first. If your level in Ranger is a level in Freebooter, it becomes more like Weapon Specialization + Weapon Focus that you need to activate first, only it gives +3.5 Damage instead of +2!
Derklord wrote: Not bad if you have time to pre-buff It only takes 1 round of buffing: a Move Action for Freebooter's Bane and Standard Action for Gravity Bow. It's a Free Action to drop the Wand, and the next Round, you are in business.
It is usually very reasonable to take 1 Round of Buffing at the start of the Boss Battle at the end of a PFS Scenario, especially since his character is an archer and not (usually) a front-liner.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: BoseMensch wrote: Earth domain Metal subtype doesn't [have Gravity Bow]. Oops. I didn't look at that carefully enough. I guess to get Gravity Bow, you'd have to dip a level in Ranger or something. As an "or something," maybe a level in Magus? Magi also get Gravity Bow, and a Level 1 Magus can actually cast Gravity Bow instead of having to get the Wand. And their spell lists for Wand Use are better. For instance, you can gain Scent with Alter Self, and then use Gitterdust on your Invisible Opponents.
+2 Fort and Will is more desireable than +2 Fort and Reflex, although the OP's character will have strong Will Saves already.
Arcane Pool only takes a Swift Action to activate.
I kind of like the concept and som of the suggestions it seems OP is going to take, any chance they/you could tally this up so we can see what the character looks like with your modificiations
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Weapon Specialization cannot be taken at all without 4 levels in Fighter It was an examplary comparison for illustration purposes, not a suggestion to somehow take the feat.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: It is usually very reasonable to take 1 Round of Buffing at the start of the Boss Battle at the end of a PFS Scenario, especially since his character is an archer and not (usually) a front-liner. And you could use that round to cast an Inquisitor spell instead! At 7th level (ZA3/Inq4), Divine Favor would grant +2 to attack and damage rolls, surely you don't think Gravity Bow was better than that, especially since the character in question lacks the designated compensatory attack roll boost the Inquisitor has.
Derklord wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Weapon Specialization cannot be taken at all without 4 levels in Fighter It was an examplary comparison for illustration purposes, not a suggestion to somehow take the feat. Okay, but the cost of gaining the capability: 1 level instead of 4, is something that should be considered when designing the character.
Derklord wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: It is usually very reasonable to take 1 Round of Buffing at the start of the Boss Battle at the end of a PFS Scenario, especially since his character is an archer and not (usually) a front-liner. And you could use that round to cast an Inquisitor spell instead! At 7th level (ZA3/Inq4), Divine Favor would grant +2 to attack and damage rolls, surely you don't think Gravity Bow was better than that, especially since the character in question lacks the designated compensatory attack roll boost the Inquisitor has. You might be right about Divine favor, but remember my point is that a 1 level dip in Ranger is a lovely option, not that the OP should definitely do it.
I agree with you that +2 Attack and Damage is better than +2.5 Damage. But when you dip a level in Ranger with the Freebooter Archetype, you also get Freebooter's Bane, which gives you a +1 Attack and Damage, and it can be activated as a Move Action. That means in 1 Round of Buffing, you can give yourself a +1 Attack, +3.5 Damage, and the whole party a +1 Attack and Damage. That is at least comparable to you alone gaining +2 Attack and Damage.
By the way, Inquisitors' Judgements are activated as a Swift Action, so they stack with Freebooter's Bane and Gravity Bow or Divine Favor, too. You can give yourself the Judgement of Justice for a +1 on Attack Rolls as a Swift Action, Freebooter's Bane for a +1 Attack and Damage as a Move Action, and Gravity Bow or Divine Favor for +2.5 Damage and +1 Attack and Damage as a Standard Action.
Furthermore, the effects all stack. Freebooter's Bane, Divine Favor, and Gravity Bow. Even a level 1 Inquisitor/level 1 Ranger can use all 3, or any 1 or 2 in Combination. Which is better? +1 Attack and Damage or +2.5 Damage? I think that depends on the situation, but following my advice, the OP can pick and choose. The effects are all different types. The Bonus from Judgement is a Sacred Bonus, from Divine Favor, it's a Luck Bonus, and the Freebooter's Bane Bonus is Untyped. Gravity Bow does not give a Bonus at all, but rather a Virtual Size Increase.
Also remember to consider the price. Divine Favor's bonus goes up to +2 only when your Caster Level is 6. The bonus for Gravity Bow and Freebooter's Bane I described you get after only taking 1 level in Ranger. Again, it is important to consider the cost of gaining the ability when you are designing a character.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Okay, but the cost of gaining the capability: 1 level instead of 4, is something that should be considered when designing the character. You don't get it, do you? There is no cost, because I wasn't talking about an actual character with the feat. What I said was basically "hey, remember this mediocre Fighter feat? Gravity Bow is like that, only you need to waste an action activating it!" The sole purpose of me mentioning Weapon Spec was to help the OP classify the spell's effect, because many people overvalue damage dice.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: But when you dip a level in Ranger with the Freebooter Archetype, you also get Freebooter's Bane, which gives you a +1 Attack and Damage, and it can be activated as a Move Action. That means in 1 Round of Buffing, you can give yourself a +1 Attack, +3.5 Damage, and the whole party a +1 Attack and Damage. Except that for the evaluation of Gravity Bow, the dip only changes something when you're just below the threshold of Divine Favor granting +2. A ZA3/Freebooter1/Inquisitor4 would still rather want to cast Divine Favor for a boss fight than using a Wand of Gravity Bow. Your wonderful action economy concept also demands the character to walk around bow in one hand, wand in the other at all times, and to drop the wand in the beginning of every fight. Presumign one round of time to buff, because that's what you called "very reasonable".
Scott Wilhelm wrote: By the way, Inquisitors' Judgements are activated as a Swift Action, so they stack with Freebooter's Bane and Gravity Bow or Divine Favor, too. Have you not read the OP or my post? The OP missnamed it, but it's abundantly clear that he is using the Sacred Huntsmaster archetype, which trades away Judgement. Which is why I said "the character in question lacks the designated compensatory attack roll boost the Inquisitor has".
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Also remember to consider the price. Divine Favor's bonus goes up to +2 only when your Caster Level is 6. The bonus for Gravity Bow and Freebooter's Bane I described you get after only taking 1 level in Ranger. Again, it is important to consider the cost of gaining the ability when you are designing a character. This is just funny. You are the one ignoring opportunity cost. You ignore that the dip costs 1 caster level, and delays spellcasting (and other class features). The OP talked about that he wants spellcasting on the character, and about his reluctance to lose loosing spellcasting by dipping.
Derklord wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Okay, but the cost of gaining the capability: 1 level instead of 4, is something that should be considered when designing the character. You don't get it, do you? There is no cost, because I wasn't talking about an actual character with the feat. What I said was basically "hey, remember this mediocre Fighter feat? Gravity Bow is like that, only you need to waste an action activating it!" The sole purpose of me mentioning Weapon Spec was to help the OP classify the spell's effect, because many people overvalue damage dice. Yes, I get it. I said Gravity Bow. You said Weapon Specialization. You said that Gravity Bow is like Weapon Specialization that needs to be activated. I pointed out that Gravity Bow has a lower cost in terms of level/prereq investment.
You are trying to back out of your own argument by saying you were making a false-equivalence fallacy argument.
And somehow you think that makes it okay.
Derklord wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: But when you dip a level in Ranger with the Freebooter Archetype, you also get Freebooter's Bane, which gives you a +1 Attack and Damage, and it can be activated as a Move Action. That means in 1 Round of Buffing, you can give yourself a +1 Attack, +3.5 Damage, and the whole party a +1 Attack and Damage. Except that for the evaluation of Gravity Bow, the dip only changes something when you're just below the threshold of Divine Favor granting +2. A ZA3/Freebooter1/Inquisitor4 would still rather want to cast Divine Favor for a boss fight than using a Wand of Gravity Bow. Not necessarily. When an Inquisitor first gets Divine Favor, it only offers a +1/+1 for yourself. When you get Gravity Bow, it gives you +2.5 Damage. You don't always want 1 over the other.
Yes, eventually, Divine Favor will eventually grant a higher bonus, but you don't have to wait with Gravity Bow: 1 level dip, and you are there.
Derklord wrote: You are the one ignoring opportunity cost. You ignore that the dip costs 1 caster level, and delays spellcasting (and other class features). The OP talked about that he wants spellcasting on the character, and about his reluctance to lose loosing spellcasting by dipping. Just because I don't mention it all the time doesn't mean I'm not considering it. The OP may be reluctant to dip and lose out on caster level, but the OP is certainly willing to do it a little, or else he wouldn't be taking 3 levels in Zen Archer to begin with!
Sometimes it is better to delay gratification for something better later. Sometimes it's better to get what you can while you can. The choice can actually be a nuanced one, and I stand behind my advice to consider both sorts of alternatives.
Derklord wrote: Your wonderful action economy Aww, you think my action economy is wonderful? Thank you!
Derklord wrote: Your wonderful action economy concept also demands the character to walk around bow in one hand, wand in the other at all times, and to drop the wand in the beginning of every fight. Presumign one round of time to buff, because that's what you called "very reasonable". It does require that. I do think it's very reasonable. My reason for thinking it is very reasonable is years of experience playing Pathfinder Society. I have done this a lot. It works very well: switching from Bow to a melee weapon by dropping the bow and drawing your weapon, buffing yourself with a Wand, dropping the wand, then wading into combat, I've done that stuff a lot in PFS, and it works very well.
Derklord wrote: The OP... is using the Sacred Huntsmaster archetype, which trades away Judgement. That's a fair criticism of my advice. But my observation that Divine Favor and Gravity Bow are activated by Standard Actions, Freebooter's Bane is activated as a Move Action, and Inquisitor Judgements are activated by Swift Actions, and so you might activate all 3 in 1 round and give yourself a big buff in a single round is nevertheless a true observation, and it is worthwhile for any reader of this thread to consider a 1 level dip into Ranger for an Inquisitor Archer Build, even if it's not the way the OP wants to go.
I'm really confused by why you're fighting so hard to multiclass this character even more, primarily just for the use of a gravity bow wand (which, might I remind you, you can just UMD)
You're giving up advancement of the main class you want to progress that way and that can be painful for what amount to a very small benefit at the end of the day.
Syries wrote: I'm really confused by why you're fighting to multiclass this character even more, primarily just for the use of a gravity bow wand (which, might I remind you, you can just UMD)
You're giving up advancement of the main class you want to progress that way and that can be painful for what amount to a very small benefit at the end of the day.
I'm not telling the OP what to do: I'm just offering alternatives to consider! I'm just saying that a dip into Ranger Freebooter is a valid alternative to consider. What I don't understand is all the hate I'm getting for that.
In exchange for a caster level, you get cool stuff. In exchange for sacrificing something later, you get something sooner. What's wrong with my pointing that out?
Because no matter how you cut it, spending a round of buffing (say, swift action draw a wand of gravity bow from a wrist sheathe, move action use freebooter's ability, standard cast the wand) for a couple points of damage is not going to make up for the lost full-attack with the bow. Outside of maybe a surprise round i see absolutely no reason to pick the tools a freebooter gets over simply unloading a bunch of arrows on an enemy.
Pathfinder is a game of action economy management. If you're going to buff, that buff has to be worth as much as a round's worth of attacks you could otherwise do. It's why Warpriest is the self-buff god, because you get the best of both worlds. Inquisitor is pretty good too because a lot of buffs have a decent enough duration that you can cast before a fight on a relatively consistent basis, then spending a swift action in combat for judgement (though not in this case for the OP)
But the level dip in freebooter pretty much HAS to be done in combat, as 1 minute from the wand is barely enough time to prebuff consistently, and the freebooter's bane prevents a full-attack action in combat for a very small bonus.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Yes, I get it. No you don't. You really, really don't. You don't understand that I wasn't comparing the two. You don't understand that I wasn't using "Weapon Specialization" as the literal feat, but as a metonymy for "a +2 bonus to damage rolls". The only thing that I was comparing was the effect on the damage roll, for which cost is not relevant.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: I'm just saying that a dip into Ranger Freebooter is a valid alternative to consider. What I don't understand is all the hate I'm getting for that. No hate here. You may notive that I've kept my original reply to you pretty short*. Only when you made a bunch of mistakes in your attempt to defend something that I didn't even attack did I feel a need for corrections.
*) And strictly on the Gravity Bow topic. I didn't even point out the irony of you talking about finding invisible enemies while at the same time delaying the level the character gets access to See Invisibility!
Syries wrote: Pathfinder is a game of action economy management. If you're going to buff, that buff has to be worth as much as a round's worth of attacks you could otherwise do. I agree.
Syries wrote: Because no matter how you cut it, spending a round of buffing (say, swift action draw a wand of gravity bow from a wrist sheathe, move action use freebooter's ability, standard cast the wand) for a couple points of damage is not going to make up for the lost full-attack with the bow. Outside of maybe a surprise round i see absolutely no reason to pick the tools a freebooter gets over simply unloading a bunch of arrows on an enemy. That isn't always true. It depends on the length of the combat. It would also depend on whether the opponent has DR or maybe you want to use Vital Strike
Syries wrote: But the level dip in freebooter pretty much HAS to be done in combat, as 1 minute from the wand is barely enough time to prebuff consistently, and the freebooter's bane prevents a full-attack action in combat for a very small bonus. It's a bonus for the whole party, though. And the fact that you can do it as a Move Action means that you can do other buffs in the same round.
Dude, lots of people spend the first round of combat self-buffing. Sometimes, it is worth it to do that.
And I stand behind my advice that it is worthwhile to consider.
Derklord wrote: *) And strictly on the Gravity Bow topic. I didn't even point out the irony of you talking about finding invisible enemies while at the same time delaying the level the character gets access to See Invisibility! You would have done better to point out that Bloodhound is also an Inquisitor Spell.
Scent has utilities beyond finding Invisible opponents. You can find them when you are Blinded or if you are in a Pyrotechnics cloud or a Fog Cloud. See Invisibility is useless for that.
To really make it good, you would have to add something like the Blind Fighting Feat, or save up caster levels until you can get something like an Echolocation Spell. Again, there is the choice between getting something good earlier vs getting something better later.
I was pointing out that a dip in Magus would give you the ability to use a Wand of Glitterdust. That would do it.
Derklord wrote: No hate here. If you say so.
Syries wrote: gravity bow wand (which, might I remind you, you can just UMD) A lot of people like UMD. I really don't. I feel like the DC for Use Wand is unacceptably high. I think it makes more sense to just dip a level in the class you want to use your wand in.
To each, his own.
If you're going to dip various classes for primarily access to wands, you're better off just investing skill points in UMD. It's not terribly hard to get a high enough UMD to regularly hit the DC 20, even with 7 Cha.
Let's see... Full ranks and a Wand Key Ring of the spell you want to cast puts you at well above 50% chance, and by level 7 or 8 should have enough ranks for around an 80% chance to hit DC 20. Earlier if you take Dangerously Curious or any other trait to boost UMD, like Pragmatic Activator.
Even without the key ring there are other options. 800 GP cracked ioun stone for +2 competence bonus. Heroism (an inquisitor spell) for a +2 morale. Circlet of Persuasion for +3 to ALL cha-based checks, including UMD (competence bonus so wouldn't stack with the ioun stone). Masterwork tool for a +2 circumstance bonus (you'd probably have to get one mwrk tool for every wand you want to activate.)
So yeah, I'm kind of in the camp of just invest in UMD rather than dipping if you're doing it for the wands.
Syries wrote: If you're going to dip various classes for primarily access to wands, you're better off just investing skill points in UMD. It's not terribly hard to get a high enough UMD to regularly hit the DC 20, even with 7 Cha.
Let's see... Full ranks and a Wand Key Ring of the spell you want to cast puts you at well above 50% chance, and by level 7 or 8 should have enough ranks for around an 80% chance to hit DC 20. Earlier if you take Dangerously Curious or any other trait to boost UMD, like Pragmatic Activator.
Even without the key ring there are other options. 800 GP cracked ioun stone for +2 competence bonus. Heroism (an inquisitor spell) for a +2 morale. Circlet of Persuasion for +3 to ALL cha-based checks, including UMD (competence bonus so wouldn't stack with the ioun stone). Masterwork tool for a +2 circumstance bonus (you'd probably have to get one mwrk tool for every wand you want to activate.)
So yeah, I'm kind of in the camp of just invest in UMD rather than dipping if you're doing it for the wands.
Your and mine has costs and benefits. You likes yours better? Cool.
People are still going on about this? I swear I should just copy and paste :P So look just go pure inquisitor..Ideally sanctified slayer with feather domain. Yeah you wont get the diplomacy from wisdom but things will be dead faster and with less effort. Wand is a waste of time. Gravity bow is honestly not worth the effort. Instead of magical knack you can take fate favored. The loss of point blank master stinks but luckily there is a 5 ft step and litany of sloth. 2 Levels of 0 bab will hurt a lot. Sorry typing fast need to wake the baby in a minute. Going pure inquisitor will give you your spells quicker and honestly you want them. I will try to go more in depth later but honestly you can still play a archer inquisitor that will make the multiclass cry.
Bane at level 8 vs level 5.
/out
Anything slowing down getting bane is bad imo. Plus those 3 levels means no level 4 spells, longer to get to the spells and the other perks. The spells are honestly huge, so the question becomes, what do you get for the dip? Wis to hit is nice but not worth losing all that you are going to get. Flurry really just isnt worth it for a dip since you will still need rapid shot for certain feats and many shot!? seriously? Granted you get a couple feats, so that is nice.
Now look at it another way: My guy started with 14 str, 18 dex, 10 con, 12 int, 15 wis and 7 cha. That 10 con was probably a bad choice but the animal companion is meant to get between them and me. For skills: honestly going a face on top of everything will not work very well honestly there were levels I had to choose which knowledge skill would be past by so I could put the points in something else..that is 5 skills right there you want to be decent enough to tell what a monster is for bane. Drawing a blank but I spent PP to make my survival skill my dayjob roll.
Spells..man the inquisitor gets some nice ones. Big ones: divine favor is honestly the most used imo, litany of sloth was nice in a pinch. Bloodhound with pheromone arrows and lesser restoration. HEROISM...I'm sorry was that in caps? Greater magic weapon and communal resist energy (honestly that spell saved the entire party in a encounter.
Gear: (a lot) Biggest thing for me was ring of tactical precision so I could share improved spell sharing with my animal companion. At level 11 I'm still using a +1 seeking bow (typically buffed with greater magic weapon so it is +2) Lesser rod of extend, swarmbane clasp (honestly it is fun to see the gm's reaction when your arrows are taking out the swarm)
I'm sure there is more but honestly I'm tired and spent awhile on this. Long story short at level 11 if I'm trying to kill something my first round I study the opponent and then cast divine favor (5 rounds for me and animal companion) and send him in for a pounce. Then on my turn I activate bane and typically sending out 4 arrows at +24/+24+19 and each arrow is hitting at 1d8+21 +2d6+1dl acid...that isnt counting point blank or if someone is flanking, the 1d6 acid is from deliquescent gloves. I havent needed it yet but I could go greater invisibility and get +3d6 to each arrows for sneak attack. Oh and with divine interference if someone is getting critted I can sack a spell to make a gm reroll. Sorry but gravity bow just isnt worth it.
How are you getting +21 on the arrows out of curiosity? Whenever I think of building a ranged character it seems like unless I go Ilsurian Archer ranger my damage is always less than what other people come up with.
At level 11, pretty easily.
Let’s see. Assuming 26 Dex (18 to start, +2 from advancement, +6 enhancement bonus) and 8 Bab we're starting at +16. +4 luck bonus (divine favor+fates favored), +3 studied target, a +1 Weapon with greater magic weapon and greater bane (putting the total enhancement bonus at +4) brings us to +27 for our full-BAB attacks.
This does not account for PBS, Haste, teamwork feats (there’s a surprisingly good number of teamwork feats a ranged inquisitor benefits from), or any other bonuses an inquisitor can get (greater invis is another +2 just for being invisible- not to mention the target is also flat-footed for the sneak attack sanctified slayer gets)
It also doesn’t take into account the -5 from deadly aim and rapid shot, however.
Edit: whoops, taking about damage.
+4 Str bonus (probably thanks to bulls strength), +4 Weapon enhancement bonus, +6 from deadly aim, +3 from studied target, +4 luck bonus from divine favor puts us at +21 damage.
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So damage is +2 str, +4 enh (bane + 2 from bow), +4 luck from divine favor, +6 deadly aim, +2 pheromone arrow and +3 studied.
To hit is +5 dex, +8 base, +4 divine favor +3 studied, +2 heroism, +1 coordinated shot, +4 enh, +2 pheromone and -5 rapid shot and deadly aim.
Kinda why I'm saying the multiclass is in the way. I have a +11 init and 11 rounds of bane per day. My velociraptor is +16 bite and +16 (2 claws) doing about 1d6+14 and 1d4+14 per hit
Out of curiosity how do you have scent? You don’t benefit from pheromone arrows unless you have scent.
Also, pheromone arrows are fairly pricy, at least compared to other pieces of ammunition. Assuming you only spend one per target that’s not a huge deal, but 15 gp per arrow adds up quick and you have to actually hit on your first attack against any given target to receive the benefit.
Edit: never mind, forgot about the bloodhound spell
There are spells, Headband of the Wolf, animal mask are common option.
In pfs I use one or two scent arrow a session. I save them for the tougher fights.
Evilserran wrote: I kind of like the concept and som of the suggestions it seems OP is going to take, any chance they/you could tally this up so we can see what the character looks like with your modificiations
Well, this is what I've decided on, at least up to level 9:
Human Monk: Zen Archer 3/Inquisitor: Sacred Huntsmaster 6 (Spelled it right this time!)
Starting stats:
STR 15
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 19 (17 + float)
CHA 7
Traits:
Magical Knack
Deadeye Bowman
Deity: Erastil
Inquisition: Conversion
Animal Companion: Deinotherium. Because free trip and trample when charging, and can be a mount... Boots of the cat = free dismount. And who doesn't want a crazy elephant companion?!
Level, class level, Feats:
1: Zen Archer 1: precise shot (ZA bonus), point blank shot (lvl), imp. unarmed strike (M), perfect shot (ZA), Dodge (racial)
2: Zen Archer 2: Weapon Focus (composite longbow) (ZA free), Rapid Shot (ZA bonus),
3: Zen Archer 3: Point blank master (ZA free); Deadly Aim (lvl)
4: Zen Archer 4: No feats, Ki pool for extra attacks; WIS +1
5: Huntsmaster 1: Boon Companion (lvl)
6: Huntsmaster 2: no feat
7: Huntsmaster 3: Extra Ki (lvl)
8: Huntsmaster 4: no feat; STR +1
9: Huntsmaster 5: Clustered shots (lvl); coordinated shot (SH free teamwork)
10-12 Huntsmaster 6-8. extended bane at lvl 11, teamwork feats at 10 & 12, based on experience with build at that time, assuming character survival. One option is to take a level of fighter at 8 to get the free combat feat and get clustered shot at level 8 instead of 9, but that delays bane to level 10, and really the only reason to continue inquisitor levels is to increase the level of the companion.
I figure it will be a fun character to play for a bit, and if not, I can always create another.
You should be fine. It’s a very good build and makes good use of making a (mostly) SAD character. The deinotherium is an interesting choice. Not bad by any means, but chances are you won’t end up using it as a mount very often. Sweep and trample is really interesting! It doesn’t look like Sweep deals gore damage but it automatically knocks the target prone and allows for the trample damage to be dealt.
Throw on power attack and improved natural attack (slam) and have a bunch of fun with that ability.
I don't really get why you take Rapid Shot as a (bonus)feat, when you already have Flurry of Blows doing the exact same thing.
You need Dex 13 to take Deadly Aim, so go 14/13/13/10/17+2/7 (or 14/13/14/8/17+2/7 as I did).
Oh, and there is no "Weapon Focus (composite longbow)", just "Weapon Focus (longbow)".
Tripping enemies as an archer seems rather self defeating given you will be imposing a -4 penalty on your attacks. The control element can be decent but CMDs rise fairly fast and lots of things are also immune to being tripped.
I would consider switching to use the Roc as a companion. It is fast, it can move you and you can still take full attacks, it can grapple eneies who you can then shoot and that reduces their AC rather than tripping which makes them harder to hit, it has great AC and you can ignore cover either by shooting while flying above enemies or by being up in melee with it grappling and you shooting.
I would also strongly recommend getting Improved Spell Sharing. It is a huge boon to your action economy and makes your companion even stronger. Sharing divinne favour, shield of faith, resist energy, see invis and the like makes your limited spell slots go a lot further.
Derklord wrote: I don't really get why you take Rapid Shot as a (bonus)feat, when you already have Flurry of Blows doing the exact same thing.
You need Dex 13 to take Deadly Aim, so go 14/13/13/10/17+2/7 (or 14/13/14/8/17+2/7 as I did).
Oh, and there is no "Weapon Focus (composite longbow)", just "Weapon Focus (longbow)".
Because flurry relies on monk level for attack bonus, and rapid shot relies on BAB, so it will outpace flurry as soon as my BAB is higher than my monk level.
Forgot about the min dex for deadly aim. Was trying to re-write this super quick, and wanted to maximize STR as much as I could. Will have to adjust ability scores, good catch!
andreww wrote:
Tripping enemies as an archer seems rather self defeating given you will be imposing a -4 penalty on your attacks. The control element can be decent but CMDs rise fairly fast and lots of things are also immune to being tripped.
I would consider switching to use the Roc as a companion. It is fast, it can move you and you can still take full attacks, it can grapple eneies who you can then shoot and that reduces their AC rather than tripping which makes them harder to hit, it has great AC and you can ignore cover either by shooting while flying above enemies or by being up in melee with it grappling and you shooting.
I thought the trip/trample anywhere along the charge path would be good for control of the battlefield. Charge past the front liner to end up next to the caster, trip & trample the front liner on the way, then the caster is the ranged target, while the fighter types deal with the tripped guy. Toss improved overrun on him, and he just goes through the guy, trips and tramples him, and ends up where he wants to be.
I thought about the Roc as well, but since this is a PFS build, I thought that the elephant guy with narrow frame would be better. Most of the PFS stuff I've played (which isnt comprehensive, by any stretch) hasn't been outdoors or where flying on a mount would do much good. That being said, I have quite some time to decide on what animal companion to take, as it's five levels out from when I start playing the character.
There’s an FAQ somewhere (I believe core rule book FAQ) about how multiclassed characters still use their overall BAB. So a multiclassed core monk’s flurry uses the monk level as its effective BAB, plus the BAB from classes other than monk.
BoseMensch wrote: Because flurry relies on monk level for attack bonus, and rapid shot relies on BAB, so it will outpace flurry as soon as my BAB is higher than my monk level. Er, no? "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk’s base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level." It has bin that way since the 5th printing of the CRB, released November 2011, and the whole thing was fixed a year earlier by this FAQ.
At ZA4/SH6, Flurry is at +6/+6, while Rapid Shot is at +5/+5. So I was wrong, Flurry is not "doing the exact same thing", it's better. The only upside of Rapid Shot is for feat prereqs, e.g. Snap Shot.
Derklord wrote: BoseMensch wrote: Because flurry relies on monk level for attack bonus, and rapid shot relies on BAB, so it will outpace flurry as soon as my BAB is higher than my monk level. Er, no? "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk’s base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level." It has bin that way since the 5th printing of the CRB, released November 2011, and the whole thing was fixed a year earlier by this FAQ.
At ZA4/SH6, Flurry is at +6/+6, while Rapid Shot is at +5/+5. So I was wrong, Flurry is not "doing the exact same thing", it's better. The only upside of Rapid Shot is for feat prereqs, e.g. Snap Shot. I was unaware of that FAQ, and my understanding of the rule was different. My reading of the text you quoted was that the flurry used monk level as BAB and did not add BAB from other classes. I am incorrect then about rapid shot exceeding flurry, as the basis for my calculations was using combined BAB against monk level, which capped at 4.
And this is why I posted up my idea, so that folks who knew could let me know what I missed, so thanks Derklord!
BoseMensch wrote: my understanding of the rule was different. My reading of the text you quoted was that the flurry used monk level as BAB and did not add BAB from other classes. It used to be that way, and I presume you were familiar with the original wording, which was "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk’s base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." That wording did indeed (RAW) made you ignore any BAB form other classes. The changed wording only overwrites the BAB from monk levels (+3 in your case), not the entire BAB.
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