How many more Spells Known are needed for Tier 1

[Minigiant]

So you may prescribe to the notion that prepared spellcasters with level 9 spells are Tier One, and their Spontaneous counterparts are Tier Two.

Wizard - Sorcerer
Cleric - Oracle

Now it is usually because prepared casters just know more spells so they can meta for every encounter.

My theory question is

How many more Spells Known would it take to move our Spontaneous Casters to the highest tier

[David knott 242]

I don't think any number of additional spells known would ever make the spontaneous casters equal to the prepared casters. At some point, they have enough spells known to cover nearly any situation and thus shift from being strictly inferior to the prepared casters to strictly superior, as they can handle any situation without specifically preparing for it.

A caster who casts as an arcanist (prepare spells to know, but cast from those spells spontaneously) is probably the best way to get a Tier 1 spontaneous caster.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

David is right, you give spont casters enough spells and you get classes stronger than tier one.

Also for the record many people consider the Razmiran priest (a sorcerer archetype) to effectively be tier 0.

[deuxhero]

I don't think it's possible to make a spontaneous caster got to tier 1 without overshooting it and hitting tier 0.

[Claxon]

Really, the closest thing is filing off the number from the Razmiran Priest archetype which gives Sorcerers access to entire divine spell casting list (more or less) via scrolls (which aren't expended). That pretty much levels the entire playing field. The only bad part is waiting till level 9 for that to kick in.

[Grandlounge]

Rings of spell knowledge cover a lot of utility casting and spells that you are stacking metamagic on. I find them a better use of money than pages of spell knowledge.

Mnemonic Vestment adds to this versatility.

Half elves can use paragon surge.

Finally, Versatile Spontaneity can give you a prepared spot perday.

I have found that this allows me to cover the vast majority of what a wizard can do while maintaining the advantage of not having to guess the exact number of each spell I will need in a day.

[doc roc]

Claxon wrote:

Really, the closest thing is filing off the number from the Razmiran Priest archetype which gives Sorcerers access to entire divine spell casting list (more or less) via scrolls (which aren't expended). That pretty much levels the entire playing field. The only bad part is waiting till level 9 for that to kick in.

Its a v.good archetype but there is some loss of bloodline powers and spells and because of sorceror delayed progression, casting a 4th level cleric spell from a scroll not only requires the sacrifice of a 5th level slot but means you have to be 10th level to do it.

[Claxon]

doc roc wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Really, the closest thing is filing off the number from the Razmiran Priest archetype which gives Sorcerers access to entire divine spell casting list (more or less) via scrolls (which aren't expended). That pretty much levels the entire playing field. The only bad part is waiting till level 9 for that to kick in.

Its a v.good archetype but there is some loss of bloodline powers and spells and because of sorceror delayed progression, casting a 4th level cleric spell from a scroll not only requires the sacrifice of a 5th level slot but means you have to be 10th level to do it.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it does hugely expand spell selection and allow a sorcerer to otherwise do things restricted to clerics, oracles, inquisitors, paladins, etc. Because the archetype doesn't specify cleric list. It specifies divine spells in general. It's a huge swath of versatility. Anything you can get a wand or scroll of thats on a divine spell list can be yours (except 9th level spells, since you need to expend 1 spell level higher to do it).

[Cavall]

I find saying "I power attack the wizard" at level one when he says "I'm playing a wizard" is an effective way to end tier arguments. It is important to act quickly before they reach the point where they verbally masturbate about tiers at the table instead of playing the game. It also has the secondary benefit of reducing the amount of end bosses in the world.

Because end bosses are always a wizard.

[PaleDim]

David knott 242 wrote:

I don't think any number of additional spells known would ever make the spontaneous casters equal to the prepared casters. At some point, they have enough spells known to cover nearly any situation and thus shift from being strictly inferior to the prepared casters to strictly superior, as they can handle any situation without specifically preparing for it.

A caster who casts as an arcanist (prepare spells to know, but cast from those spells spontaneously) is probably the best way to get a Tier 1 spontaneous caster.

Yes, at their base they're like a sorcerer who can rotate spells-known on a daily basis and then cast them with that spontaneous flexibility.

Add the Quick Study exploit, and you can swap out spells on a more ad-hoc basis making them truly versatile. I'm fond of the class.