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I’m going to put my money where my mouth is. I think the current rogue isn’t made to be played as the rogue we all imagine. You need to get right up into battle with a buddy to use your core offensive skill, have little incentive not to dump charisma…how is that roguish?
So rather than just complain, I am going to propose how I would change the rogue. Maybe an archetype, maybe a whole new approach, I’m good either way.
Change 1: Sneak Attack
Two changes here. Sneak attack actually becomes sneak attack. It only applies when you catch an enemy unaware. Rogues still can do a ridiculously amount of damage against surprised opponents, but no longer live to get in flanking position. If a rogue actually sneaks up on you, it is still there. But now the rogue doesn’t exist based on the buddy system.
Yes this is a major nerf, but wait…
Change 2: Finesse Fighter
Rogues get weapon finesse at 1st level. They just lost the sneak attack so this basically takes 1st level down to Weapon Finesse, Trap Finding and the new, less powerful sneak attack.
But wait. At 2nd level I would allow a rogue to choose to add either his dexterity or strength to damage when wielding a light weapon. No bonus for two handed, still penalties for off-hand, can't be used for power attack.
Change 3: Rogue Luck.
At 3rd level, a Rogue gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
Thoughts?
If this is popular, I may do something similar for other classes.
Why not any weapon you can use weapon finese instead of light weapons so rouges can use that rapier proficiency.
1. Not really needed, in my opinion, but see below.
2. Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level is a no-brainer; I'd done that some time ago.
3. Cha bonus to saves is pretty good; I gave them bonus hero points, but same difference. Well done.
But these don't address some of the rogue's other burden of problems:
4. When we get into talents, there are things like Bleeding Attack and other ones that add awesome bonses/conditions when sneak attacking (and everyone takes them); vs. ones that let you reroll one fart per day, but only if the GM lets you, or whatever. Ugh. Personally, I've made two types of talents, general/skill talents (you get one at 3rd, and one at 6th, 9th, etc.), and combat talents (one at 2nd, another at 5th, 8th, etc.) as an acknowledgement to that disparity.
5. So why a 3-level progression, instead of 1/2? Well, the thing about the rogue is that his main schtick, skills, suck compated to spells. So I gave the rogue "skill tricks" -- essentially, spell-like abilities tied to skills, and dependent upon skill checks for success -- using a bard-like progression. Now your rogue can get so good at Stealth that he can essentially become invisible (unless he fails his Stealth check for that trick, in which case he just looks like an idiot). He can get so good at Climbing that he can run along walls as if by spider climb (unless he fails his Climb check for that trick, in which case he falls down and looks like an idiot). Etc.
Now, I understand that #5 might go too far for people who either (a) are convinced that rogues have to suck for some reason, or else (b) are so afraid of the Big Bad 4e that they won't allow anything that looks anything like a spell anywhere near a rogue. So, ignoring that, there's still a lot that can be done with rogues. Your items #2 and 3 look like a good start.
It's a good boost defensively, but g@~&$#n will he be useless in combat otherwise. Many rogues will still prefer greatsword and strength to be even relevant damage-wise - the added damage isn't going to be enough to make them useful.
At least, give them a conditional full BAB, or some kind of improved stealth so they can use their sneak attack in combat.
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It's a good boost defensively, but g&#+~#n will he be useless in combat otherwise. Many rogues will still prefer greatsword and strength to be even relevant damage-wise - the added damage isn't going to be enough to make them useful.
At least, give them a conditional full BAB, or some kind of improved stealth so they can use their sneak attack in combat.
I would be fine with stealth boosters, as it fits the concept. My major annoyance in recent posts comes from the concept being muddled by mechanics.
I would be fine with stealth boosters, as it fits the concept. My major annoyance in recent posts comes from the concept being muddled by mechanics.
What about: Sneak attack increases to d8, and:
Supreme Sneak (Ex)
At 4th level, a rogue gains the ability to temporarily disappear from vision. If a rogue starts in an area with concealment or cover, she can use this ability. If she succeeds on a DC 25 stealth check, she becomes invisible until the end of her turn. If she ends her turn with concealment or cover, it instead lasts until the beginning of her next turn. She may use this ability once per day per rank in Stealth she has.
Sneak Master (Ex)
At 8th level, a rogue using Supreme Sneak cannot be detected with See Invisibility, True Seeing, or Scent.
Here are my favorites from the rogue discussion.
1. Weapon finesse for all rogues at level 1 in a no-brainer
2. Rogue get dex added to damage on all finessable weapons. The damage is capped at the rogue's level like a duelist's int to damage bonus.
3. Rogues(and only rogues) get half their sneak attack damage on all attacks.
4. Force of personality - Rogues gain charisma to Fort and Will saves.
5. Quick Wits - Rogue talent that lets them add their int mod to Perception and Sense Motives skill checks.
1, 2, and 3 will help rogues in combat
4 and 5 allows a rogue to get away with dumping wisdom.
Here are my favorites from the rogue discussion.
1. Weapon finesse for all rogues at level 1 in a no-brainer
2. Rogue get dex added to damage on all finessable weapons. The damage is capped at the rogue's level like a duelist's int to damage bonus.
3. Rogues(and only rogues) get half their sneak attack damage on all attacks.
4. Force of personality - Rogues gain charisma to Fort and Will saves.
5. Quick Wits - Rogue talent that lets them add their int mod to Perception and Sense Motives skill checks.1, 2, and 3 will help rogues in combat
4 and 5 allows a rogue to get away with dumping wisdom.
I'm Game. The Rogue is my favourite class, and tbh it needs some love.
Just a suggestion: rather then have rogues capable of sneak attacking everything, why not have Sneak attack go back to the way it was in 3.5 and have rouges hit more then the fighter? I'd be game for having the rogues add 1/2 their level to all attack (but not damage) rolls. Just one of my things; how a class can strike somewhere precise enough to do percision damage but still not hit more then a fighter is beyond me.
The issues I see most people having with rogues is not damage potential. They can do decent damage. They are looked at for skills, but a ranger or bard can do that job pretty well also.
If the rogue is going to be the skills guru then that needs to be supported.
I think the rogue should be given "path" options.
Is he a scout type rogue, social rogue, knowledge based rogue(kind puts him in competition with the wizard and bard, but it is not like he will take their jobs away).
The scout rogue would get bonuses to stealth. As he leveled monsters with tremorsense and blindsense would still need to make perception checks as if the abilities did not work against him. At the high levels, maybe 15+ he can even hide from blindsight. I would reccomend making it a supernatural ability though.
The social rogue gets bonuses to all 3 of the charisma based skills. That way he can put some points into charisma without putting so much into it that he can't scout and fight. He just wound be as good of a scout as the scout pathed rogue.
Exactly what these bonuses would be is something I have not had time to do the math for though.
This is just me brainstorming. I will try to think of more concrete ideas later.
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Here are my favorites from the rogue discussion.
1. Weapon finesse for all rogues at level 1 in a no-brainer
2. Rogue get dex added to damage on all finessable weapons. The damage is capped at the rogue's level like a duelist's int to damage bonus.
3. Rogues(and only rogues) get half their sneak attack damage on all attacks.
4. Force of personality - Rogues gain charisma to Fort and Will saves.
5. Quick Wits - Rogue talent that lets them add their int mod to Perception and Sense Motives skill checks.1, 2, and 3 will help rogues in combat
4 and 5 allows a rogue to get away with dumping wisdom.
1. We agree.
2. You can't have it stack with strength damage without problems. It needs to be either or, which is why I proposed it the way I did and nerfed sneak attack.3. I am opposed to anything that requires table calculations. I could probably be persuaded into anything flatfooted, but reducing table calculations is a key for any proposal.
4. I like my "add charisma to all saves" better. Yes they would have ridiculous reflex saves, combined with evasion. They are rogues.
5. I don't see the rogue being know for being "smart". Don't see the need for this.
Thanks for the input.
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I would be fine with stealth boosters, as it fits the concept. My major annoyance in recent posts comes from the concept being muddled by mechanics.What about: Sneak attack increases to d8, and:
Supreme Sneak (Ex)
At 4th level, a rogue gains the ability to temporarily disappear from vision. If a rogue starts in an area with concealment or cover, she can use this ability. If she succeeds on a DC 25 stealth check, she becomes invisible until the end of her turn. If she ends her turn with concealment or cover, it instead lasts until the beginning of her next turn. She may use this ability once per day per rank in Stealth she has.Sneak Master (Ex)
At 8th level, a rogue using Supreme Sneak cannot be detected with See Invisibility, True Seeing, or Scent.
I don't see the need for the d8, when you remember you are also adding in your Dex as damage.
As I said to someone else, I am thinking flatfooted is the way to go rather than unnoticed. There are a number of ways to achieve that already built in, so that should be enough for my tastes.
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1. Not really needed, in my opinion, but see below.
2. Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level is a no-brainer; I'd done that some time ago.
3. Cha bonus to saves is pretty good; I gave them bonus hero points, but same difference. Well done.
But these don't address some of the rogue's other burden of problems:
4. When we get into talents, there are things like Bleeding Attack and other ones that add awesome bonses/conditions when sneak attacking (and everyone takes them); vs. ones that let you reroll one fart per day, but only if the GM lets you, or whatever. Ugh. Personally, I've made two types of talents, general/skill talents (you get one at 3rd, and one at 6th, 9th, etc.), and combat talents (one at 2nd, another at 5th, 8th, etc.) as an acknowledgement to that disparity.
5. So why a 3-level progression, instead of 1/2? Well, the thing about the rogue is that his main schtick, skills, suck compated to spells. So I gave the rogue "skill tricks" -- essentially, spell-like abilities tied to skills, and dependent upon skill checks for success -- using a bard-like progression. Now your rogue can get so good at Stealth that he can essentially become invisible (unless he fails his Stealth check for that trick, in which case he just looks like an idiot). He can get so good at Climbing that he can run along walls as if by spider climb (unless he fails his Climb check for that trick, in which case he falls down and looks like an idiot). Etc.
Now, I understand that #5 might go too far for people who either (a) are convinced that rogues have to suck for some reason, or else (b) are so afraid of the Big Bad 4e that they won't allow anything that looks anything like a spell anywhere near a rogue. So, ignoring that, there's still a lot that can be done with rogues. Your items #2 and 3 look like a good start.
First, I definitely appreciate the feedback, Kirthfinder is almost as beloved as Pathfinder itself.
As to the points:
1. In this exercise I'm trying to avoid this becoming a "help the rogue" post as much as I would like it to be a "make a rogue into a rogue again" post. To do that I needed a trade off, and sneak attack seemed the best target. If it needs a power bump, I think, is a separate discussion than what I was going for.
2. Yup
3. Thanks!
4/5. Talents need some work, but I feel like that is something that could come out without changing the core set. I can see merit in your idea, but it is a bit more than I am shooting for in this thread.
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The issues I see most people having with rogues is not damage potential. They can do decent damage. They are looked at for skills, but a ranger or bard can do that job pretty well also.
If the rogue is going to be the skills guru then that needs to be supported.
I think the rogue should be given "path" options.
Is he a scout type rogue, social rogue, knowledge based rogue(kind puts him in competition with the wizard and bard, but it is not like he will take their jobs away).The scout rogue would get bonuses to stealth. As he leveled monsters with tremorsense and blindsense would still need to make perception checks as if the abilities did not work against him. At the high levels, maybe 15+ he can even hide from blindsight. I would reccomend making it a supernatural ability though.
The social rogue gets bonuses to all 3 of the charisma based skills. That way he can put some points into charisma without putting so much into it that he can't scout and fight. He just wound be as good of a scout as the scout pathed rogue.
Exactly what these bonuses would be is something I have not had time to do the math for though.
This is just me brainstorming. I will try to think of more concrete ideas later.
Interesting. I look forward to the more concrete.
Here are my favorites from the rogue discussion.
1. Weapon finesse for all rogues at level 1 in a no-brainer
2. Rogue get dex added to damage on all finessable weapons. The damage is capped at the rogue's level like a duelist's int to damage bonus.
3. Rogues(and only rogues) get half their sneak attack damage on all attacks.
4. Force of personality - Rogues gain charisma to Fort and Will saves.
5. Quick Wits - Rogue talent that lets them add their int mod to Perception and Sense Motives skill checks.1, 2, and 3 will help rogues in combat
4 and 5 allows a rogue to get away with dumping wisdom.1. We agree.
2. You can't have it stack with strength damage without problems. It needs to be either or, which is why I proposed it the way I did and nerfed sneak attack.
3. I am opposed to anything that requires table calculations. I could probably be persuaded into anything flatfooted, but reducing table calculations is a key for any proposal.
4. I like my "add charisma to all saves" better. Yes they would have ridiculous reflex saves, combined with evasion. They are rogues.
5. I don't see the rogue being know for being "smart". Don't see the need for this.Thanks for the input.
In regards to 2 I disagree. If you are cutting sneak attack from most situations, JUST allowing dex to damage will keep the rogue nice and inconsequencial in combat. Dex and str together might keep the rogue relevant if still very mad.
5 - wait you dont see the rogue being known for being smart? Seriously? The skills guy not smart? Int has always been a primary or secondary stat for the rogue in my experience since skills are so important.
Here are my favorites from the rogue discussion.
1. Weapon finesse for all rogues at level 1 in a no-brainer
2. Rogue get dex added to damage on all finessable weapons. The damage is capped at the rogue's level like a duelist's int to damage bonus.
3. Rogues(and only rogues) get half their sneak attack damage on all attacks.
4. Force of personality - Rogues gain charisma to Fort and Will saves.
5. Quick Wits - Rogue talent that lets them add their int mod to Perception and Sense Motives skill checks.1, 2, and 3 will help rogues in combat
4 and 5 allows a rogue to get away with dumping wisdom.1. We agree.
2. You can't have it stack with strength damage without problems. It needs to be either or, which is why I proposed it the way I did and nerfed sneak attack.
3. I am opposed to anything that requires table calculations. I could probably be persuaded into anything flatfooted, but reducing table calculations is a key for any proposal.
4. I like my "add charisma to all saves" better. Yes they would have ridiculous reflex saves, combined with evasion. They are rogues.
5. I don't see the rogue being know for being "smart". Don't see the need for this.Thanks for the input.
In regards to 2 I disagree. If you are cutting sneak attack from most situations, JUST allowing dex to damage will keep the rogue nice and inconsequencial in combat. Dex and str together might keep the rogue relevant if still very mad.
5 - wait you dont see the rogue being known for being smart? Seriously? The skills guy not smart? Int has always been a primary or secondary stat for the rogue in my experience since skills are so important.
Agreed. I never take a rogue with less than 14 intelligence at least. Are my rogues sub-optimal? yes, but I don't want to sacrifice the aspects of the rogue i like just to enjoy the game. The sad thing is other classes can keep the flavour and still be much better then the rogue.
That aside, 5 is a Rogue Talent. Last i checked those were optional. If you don't like it, don't take it ^_^
Here are my favorites from the rogue discussion.
1. Weapon finesse for all rogues at level 1 in a no-brainer
2. Rogue get dex added to damage on all finessable weapons. The damage is capped at the rogue's level like a duelist's int to damage bonus.
3. Rogues(and only rogues) get half their sneak attack damage on all attacks.
4. Force of personality - Rogues gain charisma to Fort and Will saves.
5. Quick Wits - Rogue talent that lets them add their int mod to Perception and Sense Motives skill checks.1, 2, and 3 will help rogues in combat
4 and 5 allows a rogue to get away with dumping wisdom.
1-3 are totally the ideas I presented on my blog. I plan to, in the coming weeks, see if I can't do a wholesale revamp of the rogue myself.
I (for once) agree with Ciretose on 4. Just give it to all saves and call it luck.
And 5 just seems unnecessary. The hit you'll take for dumping wisdom won't be enough to deter people from putting ranks in perception or sense motive.
Well, the thing about the rogue is that his main schtick, skills, suck compated to spells. So I gave the rogue "skill tricks" -- essentially, spell-like abilities tied to skills, and dependent upon skill checks for success -- using a bard-like progression. Now your rogue can get so good at Stealth that he can essentially become invisible (unless he fails his Stealth check for that trick, in which case he just looks like an idiot). He can get so good at Climbing that he can run along walls as if by spider climb (unless he fails his Climb check for that trick, in which case he falls down and looks like an idiot). Etc.
Holy S*+$ do I love this idea. I probably wouldn't use the bard progression, and I'd make them supernatural abilities. But overall this is awesome.
All ideas shall flow into my new rogue...and I shall call him...
Rogue!
You were expecting something silly, weren't you?
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
But overall this is awesome.
(In best Charlie Sheen voice): That's because I'm a tornado of it.
This is just building on my earlier post:
Scout Path
Light footed (Ex): A rogue gets a +2 bonus to stealth at 1st level. This increases by another +2 at level 5, and every additional 5 levels.
The purpose of this is to allow non-scout based rogues to still be sneaky, and rewarding those who focus on stealth to be the masters of their craft.
Undetectable (Ex or Su): A rogue becomes so adept at hiding that he can avoid extraordinary and supernatural senses. At 4th level a creature with scent does not automatically detect the rogue. He must make perception checks as if he did not have scent. At level 8 and beyond this ability improves, but it becomes supernatural with regards to foiling the other senses. At 8th level a creature with blindsense must make perception checks to detect a rogue as if he did not have blindsense. One he does detect the rogue blindsense applies as normal. At 12th level this ability also applies to tremorsense, and finally at level 16 it applies even to blindsight.
Social Path
Social espionage-Social Espionage: At 1st level and every 5 levels afterwards the rogue gains skill focus for bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, and sense motive.
2nd chance-Sometimes when trying to convey a message you don't word things correctly. At 3rd level the rogue however gets a 2nd chance to get a point across. When making any social skill the rogue may reroll the dice if he does not like the result of the first roll. This decision to reroll must be made before the results of the roll are revealed. This ability is usable 1/day. Every 6 levels thereafter the ability is usable one additional time per day however you may only use this on any one target once per day.
possible alternate-->I also thought about giving social espionage a bonus to all the social skills as the rogue levels.
Knowledge Path
Educated: At 1st level a rogue chooses 2 knowledge skills. If these skills are not class skills they become class skills, and he receives a +2 bonus on these skills. At level 7 two more skills are chosen. For every 6 levels there after 2 more skills are added. At level 10 the bonuses increase to a +4.
Think again: If a rogue fails a knowledge check or he does not roll as high as he would have liked he may try again as swift action with a +5 bonus on the check. This ability can be used a number of time per day equal to half the rogue's intelligence modifier.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I want to add more to the knowledge path and social paths, but I think this is ok for a first rough draft. Giving the rogue all 3 paths may work.
PS: I did not write as I would if I were trying to get these published, but I think the RAI of each feat is there.
Criticize as needed.
My take on how to fix sneak attack:
Instead of doing bonus dice of damage, increase the crit multiple.
If you're justifying SA damage as the rogue's ability to strike a vulnerable point, then why should they ONLY aim at those spots when a target is flanked, unaware, or otherwise hindered?
But a rogue should be better able to strike those spots when a target is distracted or otherwise disadvantaged, so when a target is denied their DEX mod to AC, double the crit range.
My take on how to fix sneak attack:
Instead of doing bonus dice of damage, increase the crit multiple.
If you're justifying SA damage as the rogue's ability to strike a vulnerable point, then why should they ONLY aim at those spots when a target is flanked, unaware, or otherwise hindered?
But a rogue should be better able to strike those spots when a target is distracted or otherwise disadvantaged, so when a target is denied their DEX mod to AC, double the crit range.
Relying on crits for damage is too circumstantial, and having something go past 15-20 on the crit range wont go over well with many GM's.
I was thinking about changing sneak attack to crits a while back. instead of just more damaging, easier crits; I would allow them to do status effects with critical hits.
In a new system I was working on back when PF was in beta, I gave rogues the ability to trade out d6's of sneak attack for status effects.
In a new system I was working on back when PF was in beta, I gave rogues the ability to trade out d6's of sneak attack for status effects.
I think that would be cool also. It reminds me of the ambush feats in 3.5.
I think that would be cool also. It reminds me of the ambush feats in 3.5.
In a new system I was working on back when PF was in beta, I gave rogues the ability to trade out d6's of sneak attack for status effects.
Not familiar with those, what book are they in?
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Here are my favorites from the rogue discussion.
1. Weapon finesse for all rogues at level 1 in a no-brainer
2. Rogue get dex added to damage on all finessable weapons. The damage is capped at the rogue's level like a duelist's int to damage bonus.
3. Rogues(and only rogues) get half their sneak attack damage on all attacks.
4. Force of personality - Rogues gain charisma to Fort and Will saves.
5. Quick Wits - Rogue talent that lets them add their int mod to Perception and Sense Motives skill checks.1, 2, and 3 will help rogues in combat
4 and 5 allows a rogue to get away with dumping wisdom.1-3 are totally the ideas I presented on my blog. I plan to, in the coming weeks, see if I can't do a wholesale revamp of the rogue myself.
I (for once) agree with Ciretose on 4. Just give it to all saves and call it luck.
And 5 just seems unnecessary. The hit you'll take for dumping wisdom won't be enough to deter people from putting ranks in perception or sense motive.
Well, the thing about the rogue is that his main schtick, skills, suck compated to spells. So I gave the rogue "skill tricks" -- essentially, spell-like abilities tied to skills, and dependent upon skill checks for success -- using a bard-like progression. Now your rogue can get so good at Stealth that he can essentially become invisible (unless he fails his Stealth check for that trick, in which case he just looks like an idiot). He can get so good at Climbing that he can run along walls as if by spider climb (unless he fails his Climb check for that trick, in which case he falls down and looks like an idiot). Etc.Holy S%$% do I love this idea. I probably wouldn't use the bard progression, and I'd make them supernatural abilities. But overall this is awesome.
All ideas shall flow into my new rogue...and I shall call him...
Rogue!
You were expecting something silly, weren't...
I really do like your fixes, although as I stated on your blog, my sample build was pulling 80+ DPR while flanking. The half-sneak attack while not flanking makes them relevant all the time though, and charisma to hit on top of dexterity makes it possible to dual-wield with 3/4 BAB and still hit relatively reliably.
Not familiar with those, what book are they in?I think that would be cool also. It reminds me of the ambush feats in 3.5.
In a new system I was working on back when PF was in beta, I gave rogues the ability to trade out d6's of sneak attack for status effects.
I think they started in the Drow of the Underdark book. I believe the others are in complete scoundrel.
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Here are my favorites from the rogue discussion.
1. Weapon finesse for all rogues at level 1 in a no-brainer
2. Rogue get dex added to damage on all finessable weapons. The damage is capped at the rogue's level like a duelist's int to damage bonus.
3. Rogues(and only rogues) get half their sneak attack damage on all attacks.
4. Force of personality - Rogues gain charisma to Fort and Will saves.
5. Quick Wits - Rogue talent that lets them add their int mod to Perception and Sense Motives skill checks.1, 2, and 3 will help rogues in combat
4 and 5 allows a rogue to get away with dumping wisdom.1. We agree.
2. You can't have it stack with strength damage without problems. It needs to be either or, which is why I proposed it the way I did and nerfed sneak attack.
3. I am opposed to anything that requires table calculations. I could probably be persuaded into anything flatfooted, but reducing table calculations is a key for any proposal.
4. I like my "add charisma to all saves" better. Yes they would have ridiculous reflex saves, combined with evasion. They are rogues.
5. I don't see the rogue being know for being "smart". Don't see the need for this.Thanks for the input.
In regards to 2 I disagree. If you are cutting sneak attack from most situations, JUST allowing dex to damage will keep the rogue nice and inconsequencial in combat. Dex and str together might keep the rogue relevant if still very mad.
5 - wait you dont see the rogue being known for being smart? Seriously? The skills guy not smart? Int has always been a primary or secondary stat for the rogue in my experience since skills are so important.
A rogue shouldn't out damage a fighter or a barb unless it is able to take an enemy completely by surprise.
Remember that with this build strength can be a dump stat, more or less. AC and saves are going to go through the roof, which along with skills is the trade off for not being a fighter/barb level damage dealer.
Relying on crits for damage is too circumstantial, and having something go past 15-20 on the crit range wont go over well with many GM's.My take on how to fix sneak attack:
Instead of doing bonus dice of damage, increase the crit multiple.
If you're justifying SA damage as the rogue's ability to strike a vulnerable point, then why should they ONLY aim at those spots when a target is flanked, unaware, or otherwise hindered?
But a rogue should be better able to strike those spots when a target is distracted or otherwise disadvantaged, so when a target is denied their DEX mod to AC, double the crit range.
First you say relying on crits is too circumstantial, then you say that some won't like how common crits might become.
Make one point or the other, making both weakens both of your arguments.
Relying on crits for damage is too circumstantial, and having something go past 15-20 on the crit range wont go over well with many GM's.My take on how to fix sneak attack:
Instead of doing bonus dice of damage, increase the crit multiple.
If you're justifying SA damage as the rogue's ability to strike a vulnerable point, then why should they ONLY aim at those spots when a target is flanked, unaware, or otherwise hindered?
But a rogue should be better able to strike those spots when a target is distracted or otherwise disadvantaged, so when a target is denied their DEX mod to AC, double the crit range.
First you say relying on crits is too circumstantial, then you say that some won't like how common crits might become.
Make one point or the other, making both weakens both of your arguments.
Actually both points make sense. A crit is too circumstansial to be counted on as reliable, but at the same time the idea(even if the dice gods dont allow it) of critting past 15-20 is something many GM's won't like. Even if the math worked out by adding other things in many people wants crits to be special, and if people feel like they are always happening they won't feel special.
Crit also give the impression of luck, while the rogue represents talent.
How about, off the top of my head:
Blindside (Ex): If the target of a rogue's attack is threatened by another of the target's foes, the rogue may add half her sneak attack dice (rounded down) to her damage rolls. This does not allow a rogue to roll more sneak attack dice than stated by her Sneak Attack ability (In other words, Blindside doesn't stack with Sneak Attack). (This punctures Improved Uncanny Dodge, essentially guaranteeing the rogue at least half her sneak dice when she has some form of help. This also helps a ranged-rogue get to roll some damage dice.)
Point being, a way to get a damage boost without having to go all the way to get full sneak dice. To meet halfway, so to speak.
Other thoughts:
Remember when you used to use Search to find traps, an Int-based roll?
Give the Rogue a fast-progressing Fort save, like the Ranger, so his saves won't suck so much.
Force of Personality (Ex): At 3rd level, the rogue may use her Charisma modifier in place of her Wisdom modifier when determining her Will saving throw bonus.
Improve the Feint mechanics, even if it's as simple as making Greater Feint be a swift action with effects that last until the end of your turn. Feinting sucks right now.
Go up to 10+Int skills per level and/or do away with Favored Class. Favored Class cuts into the rogue's proportional skill point advantage; also, as of now, bards get more effective skill points than rogues do.
Merge Climb, Jump, and Swim into Athletics(Str). Rogues don't have the benefit of magic to cover these three skills.
-Matt
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Improve the Feint mechanics, even if it's as simple as making Greater Feint be a swift action with effects that last until the end of your turn. Feinting sucks right now.
Go up to 10+Int skills per level and/or do away with Favored Class. Favored Class cuts into the rogue's proportional skill point advantage; also, as of now, bards get more effective skill points than rogues do.
Merge Climb, Jump, and Swim into Athletics(Str). Rogues don't have the benefit of magic to cover these three skills.
Addressed in order:
I'm totally with you on the Feint issue. Having the standard Feint as a standard action makes it something someone who isn't going to specialize in is practically NEVER going to use. Drop it to a move action base, Swift action improved. Greater Feint needs no changing aside from losing the BAB prerequisite. That certainly isn't such a powerful feat that a first level human fighter blowing all three feats on it would break anything.
10+Int skills for rogues isn't a bad idea at all, helps set them in a class of their own. (In conjunction with this though, you really have no excuse not bumping Fighters, Paladins, and Sorcerers up to 4+int. Clerics are debatable :P)
Jump is already part of Acrobatics (dex) which is something a lot of rogues take anyway. That being said, merging Climb and Swim into Athletics is a good idea, and I wouldn't at all be opposed to allowing the choice of Acrobatics or Athletics for a jump check.
Hell, maybe even allow a character to combine his ranks in Athletics and Acrobatics and use the greater attribute if he's invested in both, getting outstanding leaps isn't easy.
I disagree with combining climb and swim, as then you have sharks who can climb mountains and goats who can compete in the 100 meter freestyle.
I agree with you on feint as a rogue feature, which combined with the original post (as I'm now setting the bar at flatfooted) it would allow a rogue to use sneak attack more often, but in a way that fits the theme of the class.
10 skills I am neutral on. I don't know if it is needed if the other factors are put in place.
Basically what I am shooting for is a mechanic that fits the roguish style of play. That is getting by on skill, guile, luck and charm as opposed to strength, training, magic, etc...
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I fail to see how being good at athletics has anything to do with biological inadequacies. A Shark can no more use the climb skill/ climb skill-use than he could the fly skill. (Unless it's a flying shark with lasers of course.)
I notice how you skipped the goat analogy.
If you want to discuss honestly, we can continue. If you want to discuss from positions that support your own while conveniently not addressing ones that do not (as you have done in several threads now) than I don't think you are trying to have a serious discussion.
I applaud the idea behind making the rogue's main feature not rely on others.
Granted, it still does, it just requires unaware enemies rather than helpful allies. that's Sneak Attack for ya.
I'd rather see attempts to give rogue talents to other classes.
A rogue is not a class. It's a personality. Maybe I'm just getting more radical, but the rogue class should not be in the game. No one can decide what they do. No one can decide if they're supposed to be wise (streetwise or otherwise), intelligent, or lucky. Eh, rant off.
bravo on the attempt.
Also, ants don't swim so well.
But they walk across water quite easily.
Also, this still doesn't solve the issue of ranged rogues being...useless. Unrelated to this point...
I recall doing the calculations a bit ago. Fighter vs Rogue. Level 10. Same strength, same weapon. Everything was the same except for class abilities. Both had Weapon Focus. Fighter had Weapon Spec and GWF, because those are basically class abilities.
Even with flanking sneak attack, the rogue was still far behind the fighter. This change to sneak attack effectively kills any offensive capabilities of the rogue. Yes, the rogue "shouldn't" be doing as much damage as a fighter. And if you do the calculations, he's not. Even with full sneak attack. This just greatly increases the spread.
Sure, he'll be hard to kill with spells. But he'll still be easy to grapple, at which point all the AC in the world won't help him. And this just gives a little more incentive to pump Dex for rogues. In play, most rogues are high Dex, so this won't give too many extra points of AC.
So...highly spell-oriented defense, not so much other defenses. And he'll be doing piss-poor damage. More damage than a rogue not in-sneak attack, for sure. But all together, worse off than the core rogue.
So...what would he excel at? Well with now a mechanical incentive to pump Charisma, he'll be pretty good at being a Face.
But...Bards still do them better at that. All the Diplomacy in the world won't get around the fact that Bards can Fascinate and Suggestion ("The power of my sexy, sexy voice compels you!"). Or that they have a better incentive to pump Charisma. Or that Versatile Performance lets them max out 4 Face skills for the cost of 2 skill ranks per level.
I'm not going to even bother going into Rogue's skills vs spells (and specifically bard's skills/spells) since that was done to death last week.
So as not to be a totally debbie downer, I really do like the approach of trying to make them not reliant on the buddy system. This idea is a great step forward to making rogues not bad. I just don't like this particular execution.
Suggestion: Give rogues a Versatile Performance-like ability. The change in skills from 3.5 to PF really hurt the rogue. The rogue is the weakest class in the game. Just dropping abilities in without replacing them is fine for them, up to a point.
My problem with rogues are thus:
- Requires a buddy to make use of main class feature. Horrible design decision, and I want to slap Monte Cook for it. Or Williams. Or whoever did it.
- Ranged rogues are not even close to viable. This is an excessively popular archetype, so it should be made to work.
- Rogues are a personality, not a class.
- Their main schtick, skills, was massively changed in the transition from 3.5 to PF. Yes, their main class feature and main schtick are different.
- All other 3/4ths BAB classes have a way to boost their To-Hit to remain relevant. The Rogue does not.
- There's little to no consensus to what a rogue should be. See bullet #3.
- Spells mostly defeat the need to use skills, .
Funny, they always seemed to just flail impotently whenever I dumped water on them.Also, ants don't swim so well.
But they walk across water quite easily.
You'll find the same results when you dump a bunch of water on Michael Phelps.
Who?
Its a reference to something other than gaming...you wouldn't understand.
Who?
A very successful American Olympic swimmer...I wiki'd him.