Beef up a Tengu Swordmaster with a second class?

[Mitt Ticulous]

Dear Ask Paizo,

My last Curse of the Crimson Throne session had my Tengu Swordmaster failing death saves before being stabilized at the last hit point. I'm considering taking Warpriest as a second class. Here's what I'm working with, character-wise:

Ray Venn, level 4
Str:16, Con:09(+1?), Dex:18, Int:12(+1?), Wis:14(+1?), Cha:08.
HP:20, Fort:+1, Ref:+7, Will:+3
AC:16 (leather armor), Initiative:+4
Feats: toughness, weapon finesse.

We just reached level 4 and are about to start the second part of the AP, and I haven't rolled my 4th-level hit die or assigned my stat boost yet. Assigning it to Con will increase my hp per level by 1 from now on and improve any future death saves. Int will open up Combat Expertise and the 'Improved' series of combat maneuver feats. Wis will improve Warpriest powers, if I choose to take levels in that or any other class with access to healing spells.

My concerns right now are that my character can't take many hits before going down. The DM won't let the party Cleric 'follow along' and heal us when the player is absent. A new player joined us and is going to play a Paladin, but after witnessing his decision-making skills in a one-shot, I'm not very confident he'll stop to Lay on Hands a PC failing death saves.

Basically, I can't be certain the party's healers will be there to keep my Tengu from becoming a chicken dinner. Taking levels in Warpriest looks attractive by virtue of the healing powers and divine spells. And turning my character's bite attack into a sacred weapon that increases damage as I take levels.

I also feel it makes sense in-game, because this character worships Cayden Cailean and just had a near-death experience in combat. During the AP, Vincarlo Orsini took my Tengu under his wing (ahem) and other story-related developments leading me to a CG 'rag-tag good guy' point-of-view.

Is this a sound decision?

[Aemesh]

taking 1 in int will get you combat expertise, true, and that's handy for a lot of things: prereqs for other feats, not the least of them. But you're going to struggle a bit for survivability with a 9 con. That's rough for melees. I'd consider risking it and taking the int and combat expertise, and supplementing your defenses by picking up an item. Taking a level or two of warpriest is a permanent solution that really only detracts from your swordmaster levels, and unless you dedicate all levels to warpriest from now on, it's not worth having a 8 rogue 4 warpreist later on, just to be able to self heal.

the Combat expertise synergizes with your crane style, and fighting defensively. If you continue along that vein, you have access to maneuver feats, and with your high str/dex you're got a decent cmd that will only benefit from taking improved trip/disarms, both maneuvers which indirectly reduce incoming damage. Don't bother with agile maneuvers feat- the extra +1 to cmb isn't worth it. Instead, take Surprise Maneuver, and/or befuddling strike rogue talents. This will help for when you want to start out a flank attack with a trip. Go for improved trip as a feat as soon as possible as well. The surprise maneuver will also help if you flank-charge, with your Tiger style.

(not sure which trance you took, just trying to check all the boxes)

Ultimately, you may want to consider getting any item that will allow you to cast vanish, even if it's only got a 1 round duration. Being able to extract from a particularly fearsome opponent without drawing an AoO might help you to run over to your dull-bladed Paladin. Whilst hiding behind him, you can caw "Heal me! Heal!" until he realizes he's not a fighter, he's a paladin. If he is too busy using his lay on hands to heal himself, then you may want to get a 1 or 2/day cure item, preferably something that won't proc an AoO on you, such as a healing pot. The fact that it's a /per day item means its more cost effective in the long run than buying potions and scowling at the paladin and the healer who shows up a day late and a dollar short, and even though the cost of such an item will make YOU a dollar short for now, it'll remain useful for a long time to come.

Edit: this all assumes your gm allows for buying specific or customized items, which I'm not sure will be available in that mod.

[Matt2VK]

That 9 CON is going to be a killer, put that point into your CON. That's extra health and the biggy, another +1 on Fort saves.

Multi-classing - how generous is your gm on loot?
If you can get access to wands and scrolls, I'd look at taking a level or two in Ranger. This would give you access to being able to use healing wands and making a good attempt for using scrolls.

It also has the advantages of bigger hit dice and better BAB progression.

Emergency healing - If your gm allows this.
Spring loaded wrist sheaths with a cure potion inside, preferably a cure serious.
Move action to 5 foot step away.
Swift action to get potion out of spring loaded wrist sheath.
Standard to drink potion.

[Rycaut]

I would suggest the point to CON - you do realize that it would grant you essentially 4 extra HP (it isn't that the bonus is from then on - you no longer have a penalty so you would no longer have a -1 penalty for each level (though realize also there is a rule that says you always gain at least 1 HP per level - so the if you had been very unlucky with rolls you might be lower.

But a few other items to note - 20HP at level 4 is low. So low that I suspect you may have missed a few rules (if not then you have been particularly unlucky with HP rolls).

1. Did you start 1st level with max HP for your 1st level? That's the rules as written though I guess house rules could vary that - but 1st level is hard enough as is.
(assuming you did and toughness was your first level feat then you should have had 10 or 11 HP at first level

2. Have you been applying your favored class bonus to HP (with a 9 CON I would highly recommend it - 1 skill rank probably isn't worth it and while the bonus to Critical hit confirmation rolls for Tengu rogues is nice, again you need higher HP more. That's another 4hp you should have (1 for each level)

3. My math for your HP is as follows: Level 1 - 10hp (8 level, 3 for toughness, -1 con, +1 favored class) [11hp when your CON is raised to 10]

Level 2 - 13hp is the MIN it should have been (if you rolled a 1 and applied the -1 it is still 1 then add Toughness and Favored Class bonuses) - average would be 16 [18] when con is raised]

Level 3 - 16 is the min - average would be 22 [25 when CON raised]

Level 4 - 19 is the min - average would be 28 [32 when CON is raised]

so unless you actually did roll a 1 or 2 on every single hit die roll I think your math is off somewhere (or you have used favored class on skills or forgotten about it entirely)

side note - your FORT save is off unless you have a trait or a magic item giving you a +1 bonus to FORT saves - your CON penalty should be giving you a 0 for your FORT save currently w/o a magical item or trait bonus

Also what trance did you choose at leve 3 for your Swordmaster? and what rogue talents at level 2 and level 4? (depending on what you have chosen potentially my advice would be different.

But generally I would never suggest a CON less than 12 and yes, that makes races with CON penalties tougher to play especially if in a point buy game though your stat array makes me assume you rolled stats or you used a 23pt buy which is unusual.

Perhaps you have a specific reason but why did you choose weapon finesse? (especially with a level advancement feat - there is a rogue talent that would give it to you if you wanted it, so why not pick something your rogue talents couldn't choose?

Are you wielding an Elven Curved Blade? (probably one of your mechanically strongest options as a Tengu Swordmaster - 1d10 +4 with an 18-20 /x2 crit range isn't bad (two handed weapon so STR x 1.5)

4) if your GM owns Ultimate Campaign you should see if he will let you use the retraining rules? one of the many options they offer is a way to train and gain HP up to your max HP i.e. for a rogue you can retrain for up to having rolled an 8 on your rogue hit dies (at a cost of time, gold and/or other resources you earn - see Ultimate Campaign for more info on the mechanical specifics.

While multiclassing can be fun - for a character with a very low CON it is particularly risky as you are giving up your favored class bonus for the levels you take outside of your favored class.

[Cap. Darling]

Tour character should BA able to handle a figth without the healer covering your backside. Con 9 is hard on a frontliner, it is somthing you need to fix. The stat increase is a good start.
Second the swordmaster is really not a amazing class only the Tiger trance is worth anything and the others are each not even a feat worth. I would ask the GM if i could rebuilt Exchange dex and con (make it In to dex 13 and con 14 by my calculation) and pehaps int and wis as well and be a war priest all the way. This will ofcause totally change your role in the party and if that is not a good idea be a inquisitor in stead, i like the sanctified slayer.
But if that is not possible put the stat increase in con, get cloak of resistance, greater fortitude and belt of constitution a.s.a.p.
Edit: also your saves are wrong on the OP. And dont forget to get extra HP from favored class if you go on with con 9-10.
And @rycaut Toughness dosent give extra HP at level 2 and 3. I only get him one below avarage in my calculation if he ditent use favored class(and i agree he should)

[Rycaut]

yes I miscounted for Level 2 and 3 - but even so he is well below average for level 4 which is what matters actually (technically I think the average for a d8 would be 4.5 so my math is also slightly off - but for games like PFS you typically just use 5 for a d8 class as their average - which would put a typical Rogue with a CON 9 at 23 w/o favored class bonuses or 27 w/favored class bonuses

(HP: 8+5+5+5 from Hit die, -4 for CON, +4 for toughness, +4 for favored class) - raising your CON would bring that up to 31 - so I was off by 1. Should have just calculated for level 4 w/o the interim levels.

[Cap. Darling]

Rycaut wrote:

yes I miscounted for Level 2 and 3 - but even so he is well below average for level 4 which is what matters actually (technically I think the average for a d8 would be 4.5 so my math is also slightly off - but for games like PFS you typically just use 5 for a d8 class as their average - which would put a typical Rogue with a CON 9 at 23 w/o favored class bonuses or 27 w/favored class bonuses

(HP: 8+5+5+5 from Hit die, -4 for CON, +4 for toughness, +4 for favored class) - raising your CON would bring that up to 31 - so I was off by 1. Should have just calculated for level 4 w/o the interim levels.

But this is not PFS and assuming house rules are not very helpfull. (8+4,5x3)-4+4=21,5 but it dosent change that he need more con, and i think we agree on that.

[Thanael]

I would advise against dipping a non full bab class:

Excellent dips: (all with full BAB, and with a strong fort save)

Urban Barbarian: channeling the spirit of Cayden...

Unbreakable Fighter 1+: Endurance , Diehard

Weapon Master Fighter 3

Sword Saint Samurai 1+: Iaijitsu Strike +1d6, Resolve (let's you reroll a fort or will save), challenge, plus a samurai or cavalier order

Daring Champion Cavalier 1+: champion's finesse (retrain the weapon finesse feat that you already have), plus an order ability

Gendarme Cavalier 1: Power Attack bonus feat, plus an order ability

I would probably go for Sword Saint Samurai in your case...

Also a Rogue is not a frontliner.

[Thanael]

or maybe order of the penitent or order of the shield.

[galahad2112]

I heartily agree with Rycaut on several points. How was the character built? Why, oh why did you take Weapon Finesse? I mean, at all? That +1 to hit is...all right, I guess, every little bit helps, but no biggie.

Also, to everyone talking about the HP issue, he hasn't yet rolled his 4th level HD. 20 HP at lv.4 is exceedingly low, but at lv.3, it's within average range.

PUT THE +1 INTO CON!!!!!!!!
I can't stress this enough! Not putting that stat into CON is like getting a full scholarship to an Ivy League school, but deciding to not to go so that you can pursue your career as an Assistant Manager at your local Burger King. I'm not saying that BK is a bad place to work, but one would be a fool not to take advantage of the opportunity.

The class dip that you are looking for is called Barbarian. d12 hit die, full BAB, bonus to Fort save, fast movement and RAGE. Sure, you won't have that many rounds per day, but for that one big fight, you'll be a monster (it also helps with Fort and Will saves, your 2 big weak points). For flavor (and decent mechanics), you could even take the Drunken Brute archetype to fly into an alcohol-fueled rage that doesn't consume your precious few rounds of rage per day. Also, depending on what kind of attacks you do (I highly favor the claws alternate racial ability) you could dip a second level of Barbarian to get early access to Improved Uncanny Dodge and a rage power. If focused on natural attacks I highly endorse the Lesser Fiend Totem, as a gore attack stacks with everything else. Or else the Lesser Beast Totem which grows claws, as this will make full attacking much more worthwhile.

A Ranger dip for a level or two would also be a good alternative, for the wand use and style feat.

[Mitt Ticulous]

Thanks for the answers, some of what I'm reading is very clarifying, so I'll return the favor:

My character's HP by level is:
Duration of L1: 8(class hit die) -1(Con) +1(favored class) +3(Toughness) =11.
Duration of L2: 11 +2(d8) -1(Con) +1(favored class) +1(Toughness) =14
Duration of L3: 14 +5(d8) -1(Con) +1(favored class) +1(Toughness) =20.
At least my accounting classes were good for something. Also, the DM won't let us take halfsies on hit dice.

I chose the Crane trance (-2 Att, +3 AC) and I took weapon finesse so I could offset the attack penalty further, in that as well as TWF and Power Attack. And cranes are birds, so it was the natural choice. And given the way things were going combat-wise, I needed weapon finesse ASAP, hence investing a feat in it.

I want to told off on Tiger until my BAB is +6/+1. It's my understanding that making a "full attack" means having either two weapons or multiple attacks in a round. Then I can "bounce" between foes, though AoOs bring me back to the problem of being a "glass scalpel," at least until I get the Mobility feat and do something about HP.

The DM is strictly by the book when it comes to loot, as in whatever we pick up in Curse of the Crimson Throne, so right now the question of magic items is up in the air. I'd rather not plan on depending on something later and learning I won't be able to get it.

I have a campaign trait of +1 to Fort. If I put my +1 stat boost to Con, do I retroactively get the HP I would have gotten through levels 1 to 3?

Suppose I were to multiclass into Barbarian; just as a thought, what if I took the Titan Mauler archetype and dual-wielded greatswords, falchions, elven curve-blades and the like? Good god, what if I dual-wielded double swords?

[Mitt Ticulous]

I should add I'm not being entirely serious about the Titan Mauler, that's more an archetype I'd build a character for from the ground up, for ridiculousness, hilariosity, and for science.

I like the Urban Barbarian because I can funnel the rage bonus to whatever stat I need most for that fight. Plus, raging-but-still-being-coherent reminds me of The Kurgan, and that's how I'm starting to think of my character's personality.

But retraining for more HP looks sexy, and it's easy to remember the formula. I'll ask my DM if I can pursue that at out next game.

[ngc7293]

If your character had a higher CON, I would say "OKAY go and be sneak attacking", but you have that 10 con and extra low Fort save. I'd suggest picking up a bow. You are not a hitpoint sponge, you are a cleric magnet.

BTW, if I am not mistaken, I think you have two too many hitpoints because of Toughness. You get 3 points at level one and then it kicks in after you have 3 hit dices (or 3 levels). So at 4th level, you can start getting toughness points.