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I made a Focus thread so let's have some discussion! And keep this thread about the new rulez
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Mechanical notes:
-As has been noted, Champions at least can get back Focus by spending 10 minutes what appears to be an unlimited number of times. That's neat.
-Attempting to use Treat Wounds and failing apparently still makes the target Bolstered against Treat Wounds for an hour.
-As was noted last time, Lay on Hands is apparently a flat amount of healing now (it's 6 HP per use for Carina...maybe 5 + Cha?)
-Qundle and Zel's stats have changed. Zel has Con 12 and Wis 12 rather than Con 14 and Wis 10, which is probably just a correction or minor change. Qundle, however, has 16 HP, a number that appears to be correct based on what Owen said, which means that Unbreakable Goblins probably get +4 HP.
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So that means that having a Champion in your party gives you a 10 minute healing window like we had in the playtest. Not for the whole group, but 6 HP per 10 minutes at level 1 is rather good. Couple that with Treat Wounds and a Divine Sorcerer and healing seems like it will never be an issue for this party.
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So that means that having a Champion in your party gives you a 10 minute healing window like we had in the playtest. Not for the whole group, but 6 HP per 10 minutes at level 1 is rather good. Couple that with Treat Wounds and a Divine Sorcerer and healing seems like it will never be an issue for this party.
Not outside of combat, no. Though I'll note that we have yet to see Qundle cast a single healing spell, so we have no idea if he even has them.
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I’m sure he can handle things in case the party gets in a bit of a pickle.
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I only wanted to say I just managed to watch the 3rd Twitch clip and boy is Jason a great GM - I loved how he presented Razmiran to the party and how he interpreted Herald Vocar, and (the entrance to) Thronestep is really the kind of gaudy, tasteless display of exaggerated wealth and comfort one could expect from a magic-powered cult of phony individuals... I was half-expecting Vocar to tell Qundle he could be Operating Thetan if he unlocked his abilities for a modest sum, or something. Sara's face was priceless.
It's also interesting how Qundle, who has always been an outcast, was so taken in by the promise of acceptance of the cult. That right there is exactly how cults and sects operate.
Wonderful episode.
Sorry for the momentary derail, do go on. Btw I'm almost sure Qundle does have healing spells - at first Owen's instinct was to browse his spells in order to cure the others, then Jason mentioned he could use first aid and his thoughts turned to pickles of course. Very interested in seeing more combat and assorted mechanics.
ALL HAIL THE LIVING GOD!
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So, more details on Treat Wounds - it affects 1 target only, and also bolsters on a failure.
That’s... a bit restrictive, I have to say.
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So, more details on Treat Wounds - it affects 1 target only, and also bolsters on a failure.
That’s... a bit restrictive, I have to say.
Assuming the healing is enough, it still lets you rest for an hour and treat the whole party, and it is free of charge which is nothing to sneeze at. Focus Spells seem to also be effectively free outside combat (assuming you take 10 minutes), but the only healing one is probably Lay on Hands, and it seems to heal less damage than Treat Wounds (at least at 1st level).
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Assuming the healing is enough, it still lets you rest for an hour and treat the whole party, and it is free of charge which is nothing to sneeze at. Focus Spells seem to also be effectively free outside combat (assuming you take 10 minutes), but the only healing one is probably Lay on Hands, and it seems to heal less damage than Treat Wounds (at least at 1st level).So, more details on Treat Wounds - it affects 1 target only, and also bolsters on a failure.
That’s... a bit restrictive, I have to say.
Level 1 and a 12 cha character, mind you. If you add your casting mod to the amount healed Lay on Hands could heal more, on average, than Treat Wounds.
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Level 1 and a 12 cha character, mind you. If you add your casting mod to the amount healed Lay on Hands could heal more, on average, than Treat Wounds.
On average? Yes, since Treat Wounds can fail. But on a success Treat Wounds is 2d8, which averages 9 points. Carina heals 6 HP with Cha 12, so Cha 18 would make for 9 healing if Cha is added, which equals (rather than exceeds) the average of a successful Treat Wounds.
There's also the matter of investment. Treat Wounds requires the investment of a Skill and nothing else, I wouldn't expect it to be as good as a major Class Feature plus a heavy investment in a stat to support said feature.
Now, all this is at 1st level. The investment required for higher levels of Treat Wounds is significantly greater, and I sincerely hope that's reflected in how much it heals, but the exceedingly low investment nature of early Treat Wounds is a pretty big selling point on it.
So, more details on Treat Wounds - it affects 1 target only, and also bolsters on a failure.
That’s... a bit restrictive, I have to say.
Yeah I prefer the Playtest version that affected all the party.
So, more details on Treat Wounds - it affects 1 target only, and also bolsters on a failure.
That’s... a bit restrictive, I have to say.
Was it one target only? I think there were rolls by Qundle for every member in the party save Carina. Maybe it's just separate rolls for each patient? I thought that was all the 1st ten minutes because Jason called out that Carina could pray again at the end of it, and then Jason just handwaved all the rest of the healing.
So, more details on Treat Wounds - it affects 1 target only, and also bolsters on a failure.
That’s... a bit restrictive, I have to say.
One person per 10 minutes or one target for 1 hour rest?
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One person per 10 minutes or one target for 1 hour rest?So, more details on Treat Wounds - it affects 1 target only, and also bolsters on a failure.
That’s... a bit restrictive, I have to say.
It appears to be one target per 10 minutes. I'd also assume that higher levels of Medicine could possibly widen the number of immediately usable targets, and theoretically there might be a Legendary thing that removes the bolstered condition (because remember, Battle Medic is now based on Treat Wounds as well).
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One person per 10 minutes or one target for 1 hour rest?So, more details on Treat Wounds - it affects 1 target only, and also bolsters on a failure.
That’s... a bit restrictive, I have to say.
There is no such thing as a 1hr rest.
Qundle took 10mins to heal Zel, then 10 minutes to heal Mykah, then 10 mins to heal himself, then they handwaved one hour off so that Carina could lay all of them (ok this sounds bad, I meant cycle through focus points to heal them to max).
One person per 10 minutes or one target for 1 hour rest?So, more details on Treat Wounds - it affects 1 target only, and also bolsters on a failure.
That’s... a bit restrictive, I have to say.There is no such thing as a 1hr rest.
Qundle took 10mins to heal Zel, then 10 minutes to heal Mykah, then 10 mins to heal himself, then they handwaved one hour off so that Carina could lay all of them (ok this sounds bad, I meant cycle through focus points to heal them to max).
By one hour rest I meant the 1 hour you are bolstered from treat wounds.
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I'm not sure how I feel about healing so easily with treat wounds and Lay on Hands on a 10-minutes regular basis, seems powerful at first levels but I'm waiting to see the scale of it.
I feel like 5e's style is way more elegant, spending hit dices for that. A limited resource makes hit points valuable and you still don't need a dedicated healer for that.
To be honest, HP should be a daily resource, the same way slots are. One of the 1e problems with encounter design was the assumption that everyone would be full HP at all encounters, everytime, because of CLW wands. I thought the designers would try to stay away from that for 2e.
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5e means you're Wolverine. You effectively have twice your normal HP per day, guaranteed.
Treat Wounds means your first aid kit is incredibly effective. You can get health back in small increments.
Choose your nonsense. Personally, I feel like 5e healing is overabundant (I always play it with some grittier limitation, such as "if you want to heal from a long rest, spend hit dice") and P2 is, if unexpectedly, making things look a lot harsher.
Keep in mind that while it only takes 10mins to heal someone, you can't try again for 1 hour after.
(also, this is a bit of an outlier case as that party has plenty of healing potential - divine caster, paladin, treat wounds, battle medic)
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5e means you're Wolverine. You effectively have twice your normal HP per day, guaranteed.
Treat Wounds means your first aid kit is incredibly effective. You can get health back in small increments.Choose your nonsense. Personally, I feel like 5e healing is overabundant (I always play it with some grittier limitation, such as "if you want to heal from a long rest, spend hit dice") and P2 is, if unexpectedly, making things look a lot harsher.
Keep in mind that while it only takes 10mins to heal someone, you can't try again for 1 hour after.
(also, this is a bit of an outlier case as that party has plenty of healing potential - divine caster, paladin, treat wounds, battle medic)
You could actually say the same of 5e as well. Spending hit dices to heal also takes an hour (you only heal by the end of that hour) that can't be interrupted by any activity. Also, long rests only provides half of your hit dices to spend, so it's not smart to spend all of them at once.
At streaming, it was a little bit silly Carina praying each 10 minutes to get her focus back to do the same healing as she pleases. I know that in a dungeon she probably wouldn't be able to do that as GMs would make it harder to use, but still, broke the immersion to me.
If focus points are based on Charisma and Carina had 18 of it, it means she can heal 24 HP each 10 minutes (6 HP per focus point), enough to heal the whole group in less than an hour. I know, this is how magic works, but most encounters will assume that everyone will be fully healed, which is a perspective I'm not fond of.
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I must say I don't disagree with Leafar... if that's the way it works. I mean, I'm not up to speed yet with all the healing rules, but if a champion can LOH, then pray for 10', then LOH again, rinse repeat ad libitum... that doesn't make for an exceedingly good story.
As Leafar says a GM won't always let you go through the whole cycle with impunity... then again this places the onus of limiting the heal-pray-heal wheel on us GMs, while we perhaps would like to focus on setting, story, npc tactics, not on coming up with ways to limit the champion's crazy healing antics.
I hope we're misunderstanding and the problem doesn't actually arise, some way or another.
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Or assume everyone will be fully healed at the start of the day. At one heal/10 minutes that's not really a "between every encounter" thing, except out in the wilderness with no time pressure.
It's rare you'll have the opportunity to sit safely for an hour or more before hitting the next room in a dungeon.
Take Ironfang Invasion as an example. It's all about exploration in wilderness for it's first two books and still you wouldn't make random encounters at every player's step.
My problem is not being fully healed at every encounter (even though I consider that a design problem), but the way you make it. It was silly with CLW wands and it's also silly praying for half hour.
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Or assume everyone will be fully healed at the start of the day. At one heal/10 minutes that's not really a "between every encounter" thing, except out in the wilderness with no time pressure.
It's rare you'll have the opportunity to sit safely for an hour or more before hitting the next room in a dungeon.Take Ironfang Invasion as an example. It's all about exploration in wilderness for it's first two books and still you wouldn't make random encounters at every player's step.
My problem is not being fully healed at every encounter (even though I consider that a design problem), but the way you make it. It was silly with CLW wands and it's also silly praying for half hour.
So there's and argument that a certain brand of player will always figure out the exploit to get max healing at the least possible expense. 5e can kind of dodge this bullet because it doesn't give players magic mart access by default. But Pathfinder generally gives you much more free access to items. And without resonance, there doesn't seem to be anything preventing CLW spam because of exponential healing costs.
So if you're going to have that still be the case, I'd rather characters be able to inherently satisfy that need rather than reliant on items you probably wouldn't think of without an item or spreadsheet. This doesn't really address your silliness complaint, but I do thibk it is the lesser of two evils over CLW wands.
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It also blows through approximately 100x the time of CLW wands. That matters.
It also means that a little stick isn't the defining feature of gameworlds.
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What's so game/immersion breaking of spending 10 minutes to perform a prayer that lets a holy warrior heal the wounded person in front of them? Haven't seen the episode yet, but it seems like something that is quite flavorful if played up for flavor
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Take Ironfang Invasion as an example. It's all about exploration in wilderness for it's first two books and still you wouldn't make random encounters at every player's step.
My problem is not being fully healed at every encounter (even though I consider that a design problem), but the way you make it. It was silly with CLW wands and it's also silly praying for half hour.
Why is the latter silly? The latter is actually accurate to most fiction featuring magical healing, at least potentially.
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What's so game/immersion breaking of spending 10 minutes to perform a prayer that lets a holy warrior heal the wounded person in front of them? Haven't seen the episode yet, but it seems like something that is quite flavorful if played up for flavor
When that process can be repeated as long as you like during the day, it's almost easier to assume that everybody will have full HP for most fights and so HP becomes a battle resource - as long as you can rest between the fights, it won't matter that much.
Some parties won't have that healing capability, which makes it harder to design encounters and campaigns.
Besides that, the Champion becomes an Oprah for healing - YOU GET HEALING, let me pray, NOW YOU GET THE HEALING, let me pray, EVERYONE GETS HEALED, let me pray once more. I'm not sure about you guys, but I don't find it interesting as a story teller. The Stamina / HP of Starfinder would be a better approach imho.
I'm a huge fan of giving everyone things to do in their 10 minutes break - I really am. Maybe throughout the levels we'll see more uses of focus points and healing won't matter anymore, but the LOH spam wasn't interesting to watch.
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At one level CLW spamming versus LOH/focus cycling appear identical -- theoretically 'infinite' cheap healing.
However narratively there are two main differences:
1) 10minutes per cast is very different than 6 seconds per cast. You could have burned through 100 CLW charges in the time for 1 LOH/Focus recharge. If you're dealing with waves of opponents, with infilitration/retreat missions, or anything with a time-limit they are drasticall different.
2) You are spending a 'rarer' resource if if you an recover it easier. If you have multiple focus powers, do you want to run around on empty, or are you going to spend another 10 minutes after the last healing to get a point back.
3) Its reasonable in-game for the character to not _want_ to spend the next two hours praying. There is a mission after all. Perhaps they don't want to 'bother' their deity that much. Perhaps they choose to be a champion rather than a priest because they wanted to be active in their worship rather than praying, etc.
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I'll have to watch the new episode, but it does t sound too different than healing normally other than instead of and all your spells/channels, you get it for time spent. And a holy warrior without any actual spells should definitely get some sort of healing magics, and the image of a holy warrior praying for healing... it sounds on point. Sure, it may not sound too interesting if presented Oprah style, but all it takes is "after an hour's rest, I've healed ypu for 10, ypu for 15, and myself for 5" and boom, moving on
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Why is the latter silly? The latter is actually accurate to most fiction featuring magical healing, at least potentially.Take Ironfang Invasion as an example. It's all about exploration in wilderness for it's first two books and still you wouldn't make random encounters at every player's step.
My problem is not being fully healed at every encounter (even though I consider that a design problem), but the way you make it. It was silly with CLW wands and it's also silly praying for half hour.
From what we've seen, the rules are likely: You spend ten minutes praying and you get all your focus points back. Let's set up an example where the party faced three encounters and found a secret room, so they decide to take an hour break.
Then, the Champion decides to spend her focus points healing someone with her magic and then spends ten minutes praying to get her focus points back. Neat! Then she spends all her focus points again healing someone else and then the she prays again and regains all her focus points, to spend right after healing someone else. Neat and mechanical. And then the champion prays once again to regain her focus points to do the same thing again. 40 minutes have passed, the champion prayed four different times only because it's mechanically better.
The party doesn't even care about the Champion's prayers at this point (she's like a fanatical, tbh). It would be way better if:
- Champion prays for an hour. The Champion gets her focus points back and also heals the group X hit points, that can be used the way she wants, to show the mercy of her deity. She can spend her recently recovered focus points to heal someone with Lay on Hands, but she wouldn't have it to smite things up unless another hour is spent.
The Champion also has the "Holy Defender" class feature that besides healing, everytime she prays for an hour, it also gives everyone X temporary hit points as a Holy Shield of her deity.
- The Wizard studies for an hour. He can reorganize his spell slots, based on the encounters he already had. If he has quick preparation feat, this takes only ten minutes, so he can spend his next 50 minutes as a Scout or writing scrolls.
- The Bard plays his flute while everyone is resting. Besides a small heal, the bard also inspires the next skill check any ally would make.
- The Fighter uses that hour break to treat everyone's wounds, patching them with mundane healing techniques, the same way he did back in his village. The fighter could use that hour to fix his shield that broke, but instead, he prefers to help his friends.
The fighter has a skill feat called "Poison expertise", that lets him end one of treated party member a poison effect in that hour, which is handy.
- Oh, what about the Sorcerer? She spends her "hour break" clearing her thoughts and she regains a spell slot or two. Since she's from the draconic bloodline, she can also rest her lungs to make a breath attack again.
No dedicated healer were required and everyone has flavor decisions to make in that hour break.
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Still unsure the 10 minute praying restores ALL spell points. Maybe it's just 1.
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From what we've seen, the rules are likely: You spend ten minutes praying and you get all your focus points back. Let's set up an example where the party faced three encounters and found a secret room, so they decide to take an hour break.
Then, the Champion decides to spend her focus points healing someone with her magic and then spends ten minutes praying to get her focus points back. Neat! Then she spends all her focus points again healing someone else and then the she prays again and regains all her focus points, to spend right after healing someone else. Neat and mechanical. And then the champion prays once again to regain her focus points to do the same thing again. 40 minutes have passed, the champion prayed four different times only because it's mechanically better.
The party doesn't even care about the Champion's prayers at this point (she's like a fanatical, tbh). It would be way better if:
- Champion prays for an hour. The Champion gets her focus points back and also heals the group X hit points, that can be used the way she wants, to show the mercy of her deity. She can spend her recently recovered focus points to heal someone with Lay on Hands, but she wouldn't have it to smite things up unless another hour is spent.
The Champion also has the "Holy Defender" class feature that besides healing, everytime she prays for an hour, it also gives everyone X temporary hit points as a Holy Shield of her deity.
- The Wizard...
I would simplify things. The champion can totally pray and recover their Focus, no probs. Once. Once per hour, once per day, I dunno, whatever's appropriate and mechanically fit. So they can use a limited amount of healing, and most of all, can't pray all day to recover healing power and then use it and pray and heal etc - because after a while their deity won't listen to them anymore. If they want to recover Focus after they've reached that point the god will want something more - a ritual, a sacrifice, appropriate deeds, whatever.
What feels fundamentally wrong is the heal-pray-heal-pray-heal cycle. Nowhere in fiction it works like that, b/c it's just silly. That's the part we don't want. At this point, from a silliness pov, there's not much difference from a clw wand.
First aid is done well: you use it on someone and they're bolstered for an hour. That makes sense: you can only heal a certain amount of tissue damage in a set amount of time, everything else is basically upkeep/maintenance. They could also have gone the GURPS way - you can try to treat each single wound taken for a couple hps in 10' - but I feel we're lucky they didn't.
If a character can do something magical, recharge for 10', do it again, and so on...
Oh and guys, don't think the players won't exploit this. Sure, some might want to roleplay their pcs' hesitation in asking more and more healing to their deity, but the point is: praying every other 10' doesn't cost a thing, isn't discouraged, is free, it's totally legit from a mechanical pov (as far as we know for now) - players have a lot of imagination, but they'll probably use it to rationalize how come their deity keeps giving them small amounts of healing instead of deciding their character won't abuse their gift. Most of all b/c hps are the difference between life and death, victory and defeat, quite literally.
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At first I was moderately negative on Treat Wounds only healing one target, because I'm a big fan of "patch the party up over a 10 minute rest".
But then I realized this is probably an "open the design space" move, and there is a 90% chance there will be a Skill Feat that bumps it back up to multiheal.
So I think it's a good change.
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At first I was moderately negative on Treat Wounds only healing one target, because I'm a big fan of "patch the party up over a 10 minute rest".
But then I realized this is probably an "open the design space" move, and there is a 90% chance there will be a Skill Feat that bumps it back up to multiheal.
So I think it's a good change.
Sneaky, sneaky, thinking like a designer...
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You guys have been generous enough to give us so much insight into your design process, I was pretty much bound to pick up a thing or two. :P
...No seriously, I've learned some good things about game design from this whole playtest process. Thank you.
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Sneaky, sneaky, thinking like a designer...At first I was moderately negative on Treat Wounds only healing one target, because I'm a big fan of "patch the party up over a 10 minute rest".
But then I realized this is probably an "open the design space" move, and there is a 90% chance there will be a Skill Feat that bumps it back up to multiheal.
So I think it's a good change.
I'm surprised this wasn't the consensus from the jump. I figured it was the obvious guess? It would make a great skill feat that anyone who wanted to go for "nonmagical healer" would love to take. And it's also just good to have more gradation here—that way folks who just train a little bit in Medicine can contribute a little but lets folks who really want to invest shine more in comparison (as it should be).
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1) 10minutes per cast is very different than 6 seconds per cast. You could have burned through 100 CLW charges in the time for 1 LOH/Focus recharge. If you're dealing with waves of opponents, with infilitration/retreat missions, or anything with a time-limit they are drasticall different.
One of the big issues with CLW spam is that it's fast- if you have 2 people in the party who can wave a wand, you can go through 40 charges in 2 minutes. Practically speaking this makes it possible for the party to heal up very quickly. Whereas a party who spends 30 minutes in a room before opening the door to the next one will plausibly have to worry about someone from the next room just wandering in. In making time a significant cost for this kind of healing you set up tools for GMs like "every hour in this area roll for a random encounter" and you make the team think about not only how long it's going to take to recharge but also whether they are in a good place to do it.
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GM : The fight is ended. What do you do now ?
Champion's player : I heal the wounded by praying to Sarenrae for as long as it takes.
GM checks the amount healed every 10 minutes : OK. It will take you 2 hours of prayer to heal everybody back to full. And 10 minutes more to replenish your focus.
Or
GM : after 20 minutes spent praying, there is a ruckus near the entrance of the cave.
Champion's player : I stop praying and go with the others to check what is happening.
GM : you healed this amount. Who did you heal and for how many HPs ?
Note that the above phrasing supposes that LoH heals a fixed amount. It changes but little if dice are rolled, though IMO a fixed amount lessens the suspension of disbelief caused by Rinse/Repeat healing an unknown number of times until full HPs.
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Also I just have to say on the idea of "pray for 10 min, heal, pray, heal, pray" etc., for the complaints I've seen against it this is just a single small flavor change away from being acceptable.
So you spend 10 minutes praying and then place a heal, repeating as needed. The complaint I've seen is against the idea of going through a whole 10 minute thing and then doing a quick heal tap.
But really, it's mostly functionally the exact same as being essentially a 10 minute healing ritual. That is to say that praying for 10 minutes and then healing an ally is essentially the same as healing an ally by praying for 10 minutes. From what I've seen those with complaints about this specific mechanic wouldn't mind the latter, which is only a very small flavor distinction from the former.
The sole mechanical difference is that this ends with an additional prayer to get the previously spent focus back, but that fits nicely under the actual mechanic of a prayer to regain power.
Its like you spend whatever time necessary performing prayerful rituals to heal your allies and then you finish the session off with one last prayer entreating for the restoration of your Divine power before you continue on.
It's the same mechanics but just a slightly different flavor interpretation than the literally-read standard and I don't think that gap is anywhere near unacceptable personally. And this is as someone who would find the idea of the pray-healtap cycle that some aren't fond of a bit odd myself even if i don't mind it that much. I still like the minor flavor tweak better.
I'm so over tweaking flavor this way. I want to play a game that makes sense.
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The rules may provide us a lot of flavor to work with, but the fact is their job is first and...
I don't like the perspective of "if you don't like a CLASS FEATURE, change it as GM to suit what you believe it's the best", specially when we're talking about the Core Rulebook only.
I understand when subsystems (like hero points) are left behind to suit table preferences, but not class features.
Still, I'm a Paizo fan and I'm sure they'll deliver the best game they could've made.
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If I had to choose between a game that's mechanically solid and one that's narratively satisfying, I'd probably go play something other than tabletop RPGs. It should be very possible to have mechanics and flavor work hand in hand with each other so that things both don't feel weirdly clunky narratively whenever I want to do a fairly common action (heal my party).
IMO, freely recovering focus points seems like a problem - focus powers are bound to be very weak if they're available as filler in every engagement. If we could only pray or rest to recover focus once/day, this 'gamey' situation would never have come up either.
If you could only rest to recover focus once per day, there really isn't a meaningful mechanical difference between that and just increasing your daily focus points by the amount you recover on a rest.
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If you could only rest to recover focus once per day, there really isn't a meaningful mechanical difference between that and just increasing your daily focus points by the amount you recover on a rest.
Yes there is. Having double the points means being able to burn all of that in a single encounter and then the party teleports out and rests for the day. 15m adventuring day. Doing a 10m rest at least pushes that out to a 30m adventuring day.