Teamwork feats, bards / skalds, and defensive characters

[glass]

Hi all,

I have volunteered to make characters for a couple of extra players who may be joining a Shattered Star game I will be playing shortly. If they do join, we will have quite a large group, which obviously has an impact on character choices. Pet classes are not so favoured, while anything that buffs the whole party is great. Bards or skalds are an obvious example of the latter, as are cavaliers for the Teamwork-feat granting (with an archetype to lose the mount).

And then I got to wondering, are there any Bard or Skald archetypes that do anything interesting with teamwork feats (preferebly without losing Bardic Performance or equivalent)?

On a largely unrelated note, are there any ways to build a character who punished enmies for attacking his allies, like a D&D 4e defender, or a PF2P Paladin (but hopefully better implemented than the latter)? I am aware of the Warder class from DSP's Path if War, but are there any other options?

_
glass.

[ekibus]

Probably not what you are looking for but I remember the brawler has the archetype exemplar..If the gm would allow you to stack the paladin there is holy tactician with oath of the people's council..actually upon rereading the holy tactician that wont work. Sadly I don't really know anything third party so cant help you there, but I'm sure there is something.

As a side note the skald basically gives rage powers instead of teamwork feats, which is really nice, but some people wont take the rage. So just be aware of that :(

[JiaYou]

Spell Warrior Skald gets rid of rage and gives enhancement bonuses to weapons while also still passing along the rage powers. There's at least one more Skald archetype that does something similar I believe.

[avr]

There's the dwarven scholar bard. They can share combat feats; teamwork feats are often also combat feats. For best results combine with a level dip in brawler so you can select feats to share on the fly.

There's a feat which lets you take AoOs on enemies who attack your friends when the friends are prone or similarly disadvantaged. Intrepid rescuer IIRC, requires worshipping Kurgess. The antagonize feat isn't great but it gives minor penalties to enemies who attack your friends rather than you, once you set it up. MMO-style tanks aren't well supported in PF though.

[SorrySleeping]

You mention the Warder, is your DM allowing 3PP material?

You can always take Combat Patrol to hit enemies on the way to your allies, but it doesn't do much when your enemies are on top of your allies.

[Syries]

Ooh, this build is a bit weird but I’ve been theorycrafting this for a while

Half orc, primary focus on strength and charisma, go Paladin with the Holy Tactician archetype for 4 levels. The rest take Skald. At 5th level take the Amplified Rage teamwork feat. You now can give out +6 Str/Con to anyone accepting your inspired rage. Once you have uncanny dodge as a skald, you can no longer be caught flat footed so your share teamwork ability from Holy Tactician is always working.

[Firebug]

Red Tongue Skald gets rogue talents at 7 and can share them with the party. You could then use the Combat Trick to pick a combat feat, preferably a teamwork feat like Outflank or Paired Opportunist. Its a shame Amplified Rage is not a combat feat...

You can share it via other means though. Rings of Tactical Precision, or Battle Song of the People's Revolt are probably the easiest. The Battle song just costs a 2nd level spell slot... but sharing the teamwork feat takes the place of your performance so it doesn't work well.

As far as other people not taking your rage, just make it more attractive to do so. My Skald went Urban, Totemic(Tiger) and Red Tongue. When I start raging song I choose +4 Morale bonus to Dex (level 9) with Urban and give out another +4 Enhancement bonus to Dex with Totemic, and with no AC penalty. With Community-Minded trait allows the Morale bonus to Dex to continue for another 2 rounds. So Round 1 when you start your Raging Song (as a move action and cast haste as your standard), everyone accepts on your turn. On their turn, the casters decline to continue accepting, but still gain the bonus Morale Dex for another couple rounds. I really wanted to work in Mad Magic-type ability (which is a combat feat) to allow other casters to accept rage and still cast spells, but it doesn't quite work. My Skald also dipped 1 level in Bloodrager for the alternate choice of rage and swapped the bloodline power for a Valet familiar.
Which gets my teamwork feats automatically (Amplified Rage). Then since I am a Tiger Totemic I pounce on round 2...

[*Khan*]

Syries wrote:

Ooh, this build is a bit weird but I’ve been theorycrafting this for a while

Half orc, primary focus on strength and charisma, go Paladin with the Holy Tactician archetype for 4 levels. The rest take Skald. At 5th level take the Amplified Rage teamwork feat. You now can give out +6 Str/Con to anyone accepting your inspired rage. Once you have uncanny dodge as a skald, you can no longer be caught flat footed so your share teamwork ability from Holy Tactician is always working.

You could get it to work from level 4, if you first take 2 levels holytactician paladin. Then 1 level skald ( if you only want one level of skald then take extra performance with your 3rd level feat). Then 1 more level holytactician paladin, and choose amplified rage as your Teamwork feat.

If you go to level 5 in paladin then stack on holy guide archtype for an extra teamwork feat.

I think a one level dip in skald is the best. If you level more up i skald, you will miss the 3 level lost on paladin.

[Magda Luckbender]

My PCs have made excellent defensive use of teamwork feats Tandem Trip and Paired Opportunists, combined with Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon. Both teamwork feats magnify the effectiveness of your reach screen, which serves to keep enemies away from your squishies. Even without the teamwork feats this is quite a strong defensive technique. A reach screen often provides more defensive value than does a shield and also protects your allies. This is why long spears and other polearms were historically considered defensive weapons. Think of it as Pike and Shot tactics, which dominated historical battlefields for centuries, where you provide the pike and your squishies provide the shot. This approach effectively shuts down most melee mooks and keeps them off your squishies, but also leaves you vulnerable to missile fire. Take appropriate precautions.

One warning: the wording of Paired Opportunists is awkward, such that it sometimes doesn't work. The ally must be ADJACENT and must also THREATEN the target, so either the angle must be right or your adjacent ally must also wield a reach weapon.

Tandem trip, on the other hand, performs more reliably. The foe need only be adjacent to your ally. You and your ally need not be adjacent.

When both teamwork feats activate your trips are nearly guaranteed: you get an extra +4 to CMB and you get to roll twice and take the best roll. Teams with reach screen(s) tend to outperform teams without.

[*Khan*]

Magda Luckbender wrote:

My PCs have made excellent defensive use of teamwork feats Tandem Trip and Paired Opportunists, combined with Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon. Both teamwork feats magnify the effectiveness of your reach screen, which serves to keep enemies away from your squishies. Even without the teamwork feats this is quite a strong defensive technique. A reach screen often provides more defensive value than does a shield and also protects your allies. This is why long spears and other polearms were historically considered defensive weapons. Think of it as Pike and Shot tactics, which dominated historical battlefields for centuries, where you provide the pike and your squishies provide the shot. This approach effectively shuts down most melee mooks and keeps them off your squishies, but also leaves you vulnerable to missile fire. Take appropriate precautions.

One warning: the wording of Paired Opportunists is awkward, such that it sometimes doesn't work. The ally must be ADJACENT and must also THREATEN the target, so either the angle must be right or your adjacent ally must also wield a reach weapon.

Tandem trip, on the other hand, performs more reliably. The foe need only be adjacent to your ally. You and your ally need not be adjacent.

When both teamwork feats activate your trips are nearly guaranteed: you get an extra +4 to CMB and you get to roll twice and take the best roll. Teams with reach screen(s) tend to outperform teams without.

Hmm could work well with a polearm wielding Hunter riding a Stegosaurus...

[Magda Luckbender]

Indeed, this approach work great if you ride your pet, especially if your pet has reach. At lower levels this limits you to Axe Beak (gets reach at 4th) or Roc (gets reach at 7th). If your pet lacks reach then neither teamwork feat will apply to your reach AoOs. Note that this is a very powerful option that can easily overshadow martial combatants in your party, so use only with respect and caution.

The OP said this is a large group, and that pet classes were not very welcome. So don't use a pet in this case!

[Syries]

*Khan* wrote:

Syries wrote:

Ooh, this build is a bit weird but I’ve been theorycrafting this for a while

Half orc, primary focus on strength and charisma, go Paladin with the Holy Tactician archetype for 4 levels. The rest take Skald. At 5th level take the Amplified Rage teamwork feat. You now can give out +6 Str/Con to anyone accepting your inspired rage. Once you have uncanny dodge as a skald, you can no longer be caught flat footed so your share teamwork ability from Holy Tactician is always working.

You could get it to work from level 4, if you first take 2 levels holytactician paladin. Then 1 level skald ( if you only want one level of skald then take extra performance with your 3rd level feat). Then 1 more level holytactician paladin, and choose amplified rage as your Teamwork feat.

If you go to level 5 in paladin then stack on holy guide archtype for an extra teamwork feat.

I think a one level dip in skald is the best. If you level more up i skald, you will miss the 3 level lost on paladin.

Yeah I don’t know why I said 4 levels of holy tactician. You only need 3.

In any case I’d go at least a couple more levels in skald for the inspired rage rounds. Getting a masterwork performance tool made out of 5lbs of Singing Steel can reduce the start of a performance to a move action though.

[Scott Wilhelm]

*Khan* wrote:

Magda Luckbender wrote:

My PCs have made excellent defensive use of teamwork feats Tandem Trip and Paired Opportunists, combined with Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon. Both teamwork feats magnify the effectiveness of your reach screen, which serves to keep enemies away from your squishies. Even without the teamwork feats this is quite a strong defensive technique. A reach screen often provides more defensive value than does a shield and also protects your allies. This is why long spears and other polearms were historically considered defensive weapons. Think of it as Pike and Shot tactics, which dominated historical battlefields for centuries, where you provide the pike and your squishies provide the shot. This approach effectively shuts down most melee mooks and keeps them off your squishies, but also leaves you vulnerable to missile fire. Take appropriate precautions.

One warning: the wording of Paired Opportunists is awkward, such that it sometimes doesn't work. The ally must be ADJACENT and must also THREATEN the target, so either the angle must be right or your adjacent ally must also wield a reach weapon.

Tandem trip, on the other hand, performs more reliably. The foe need only be adjacent to your ally. You and your ally need not be adjacent.

When both teamwork feats activate your trips are nearly guaranteed: you get an extra +4 to CMB and you get to roll twice and take the best roll. Teams with reach screen(s) tend to outperform teams without.

Hmm could work well with a polearm wielding Hunter riding a Stegosaurus...

You'll need that pet for Amplified Rage to work. Remember that it's not enough to have Tactician or Solo Tactics or something for Amplified Rage to work. You also need an Ally to Rage while you do. The best way I can think of to do that is to have a Mount or Animal Companion or something and take that Rage Power that lets them go into a Rage along with you.

[*Khan*]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

*Khan* wrote:

Magda Luckbender wrote:

My PCs have made excellent defensive use of teamwork feats Tandem Trip and Paired Opportunists, combined with Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon. Both teamwork feats magnify the effectiveness of your reach screen, which serves to keep enemies away from your squishies. Even without the teamwork feats this is quite a strong defensive technique. A reach screen often provides more defensive value than does a shield and also protects your allies. This is why long spears and other polearms were historically considered defensive weapons. Think of it as Pike and Shot tactics, which dominated historical battlefields for centuries, where you provide the pike and your squishies provide the shot. This approach effectively shuts down most melee mooks and keeps them off your squishies, but also leaves you vulnerable to missile fire. Take appropriate precautions.

One warning: the wording of Paired Opportunists is awkward, such that it sometimes doesn't work. The ally must be ADJACENT and must also THREATEN the target, so either the angle must be right or your adjacent ally must also wield a reach weapon.

Tandem trip, on the other hand, performs more reliably. The foe need only be adjacent to your ally. You and your ally need not be adjacent.

When both teamwork feats activate your trips are nearly guaranteed: you get an extra +4 to CMB and you get to roll twice and take the best roll. Teams with reach screen(s) tend to outperform teams without.

Hmm could work well with a polearm wielding Hunter riding a Stegosaurus...

You'll need that pet for Amplified Rage to work. Remember that it's not enough to have Tactician or Solo Tactics or something for Amplified Rage to work. You also need an Ally to...

Yes if you want to use amplified rage, you need to dip skald or barbarian with the rage power Ferosious Beast.

And Magda is correct. Paired opportunitist will work better with a animal compagnion (AC) with natural reach. But if you go with Sacred Huntmaster Inquisiitor with Growth domain (instead of Hunter), you kan cast enlarge person on your AC.

[Temperans]

Btw just a 1 lv Shield Paladin dip let's allies with X ft take 1/2 damage vs 1 target. From the sound of things it could be really easy to set up the dmg reduction vs BBEG for the day.

[Magda Luckbender]

*Khan* wrote:

if you go with Sacred Huntmaster Inquisiitor with Growth domain (instead of Hunter), you can cast enlarge person on your AC.

Nope. Inquisitors don't get Domain Spells, so no Enlarge Person. Share Spells only works for spells from the same class that grants the Animal Companion. Enlarge Person via Share Spells does work for non-person Animal Companions, but very few classes are able to do this. All I can think of are Sylvan Sorcerers and Clerics with both the Growth and Animal(including subdomains) Domains, but there are probably a few other classes that can do this. Not Inquisitors.

[avr]

Almost true Magda. But there's a new inquisitor archetype as of Wilderness Origins, the sworn of the Eldest. They get domain slots & spells in place of teamwork feats and Imbrex can grant the strength domain. The archetype isn't compatible with sacred huntsmaster, true, but the animal ally feat is a thing and not inappropriate for a sworn of the Eldest.

[*Khan*]

Magda Luckbender wrote:

*Khan* wrote:

if you go with Sacred Huntmaster Inquisiitor with Growth domain (instead of Hunter), you can cast enlarge person on your AC.

Nope. Inquisitors don't get Domain Spells, so no Enlarge Person. Share Spells only works for spells from the same class that grants the Animal Companion. Enlarge Person via Share Spells does work for non-person Animal Companions, but very few classes are able to do this. All I can think of are Sylvan Sorcerers and Clerics with both the Growth and Animal(including subdomains) Domains, but there are probably a few other classes that can do this. Not Inquisitors.

Good catch.

Well a couple of Dire Collars (1000gp) should do the trick. Just change them between encounters.

[Pounce]

A Shabti Nature / Lunar Oracle (or Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc) with Planar Heritage (Shabti) can grab psychic spells off-list, and so can cast Enlarge Person come level 4.

Shared Training could then do some work come level 6, for TW feat sharing.

[Firebug]

avr wrote:

Almost true Magda. But there's a new inquisitor archetype as of Wilderness Origins, the sworn of the Eldest. They get domain slots & spells in place of teamwork feats and Imbrex can grant the strength domain. The archetype isn't compatible with sacred huntsmaster, true, but the animal ally feat is a thing and not inappropriate for a sworn of the Eldest.

Green Faith Marshall also get domain spells added to their list, but not slots. However, only for animal or terrain domains, none of which have enlarge person. It does stack with Sacred Huntsmaster though.