Oracle and Imbue with Spell ability

[Altaica]

A 1st lvl human Oracle with 20 Cha
Favored Class Option: Add one spell known from the oracle spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the oracle can cast
Choose IwSA
feat Heighten(Metamagic)

Heighten IwSA to lvl5 as it only prevents it being replaced with a 4th lvl spell.

Do I need to dip a lvl into cleric to give out a CLW each day?

[willuwontu]

>Asking about Oracle, a spontaneous caster.
>Ignores the full implication of this line
>"Once you cast imbue with spell ability, you cannot prepare a new 4th-level spell to replace it until the recipient uses the imbued spells or is slain, or until you dismiss the imbue with spell ability spell."

Oracles don't prepare spells. /cheese

[Altaica]

willuwontu wrote:

Oracles don't prepare spells. /cheese

So I don't need the Metamagic and need the cleric?

[willuwontu]

Altaica wrote:

willuwontu wrote:

Oracles don't prepare spells. /cheese

So I don't need the Metamagic?

RAW you don't.

As a GM I'd never let this fly and would use the implied definition of not being able to use the spell slot you cast it from until those conditions occur.

[Altaica]

willuwontu wrote:

Altaica wrote:

willuwontu wrote:

Oracles don't prepare spells. /cheese

So I don't need the Metamagic?

RAW you don't.

As a GM I'd never let this fly and would use the implied definition of not being able to use the spell slot you cast it from until those conditions occur.

I'm an optimist. I naturally assume that Paizo product's are Worth the paper they are printed on. They could of easily said "You can't use the spell slot until the imbued spell is spent" or "You can only have one imbued spell per spell slot" Hell could have even RTFM and said, "You can't prepare a spell of the same level that IWSA Was prepared at"

[Magda Luckbender]

Imbue with Spell Ability was written long BEFORE the Oracle class existed. Thus the wording of IwSA does not consider spontaneous casting. Ask your GM. Most reasonable GMs will allow it, so long as you don't try to cheese.

[Kayerloth]

Huh?

First level Oracles AFAIK can't cast or Heighten anything to 5th level or I'm totally not following the OP's line of reasoning.

[Ferious Thune]

I think there’s a misreading of “highest level the oracle can cast.” A 1st level Oracle can only cast 1st level spells. Having a 20 charisma doesn’t mean that you can cast 5th level spells. You only get the bonus spells when you reach a high enough level to cast that level spell normally. Imbue With Spell Ability is a 4th level spell. You need to be 8th level before you can cast it.

Otherwise, for a 10th level Oracle heightening it to 5th, Magda’s pretty much covered it.

[Andre Roy]

Ferious Thune wrote:

I think there’s a misreading of “highest level the oracle can cast.” A 1st level Oracle can only cast 1st level spells. Having a 20 charisma doesn’t mean that you can cast 5th level spells. You only get the bonus spells when you reach a high enough level to cast that level spell normally. Imbue With Spell Ability is a 4th level spell. You need to be 8th level before you can cast it.

Otherwise, for a 10th level Oracle heightening it to 5th, Magda’s pretty much covered it.

You've just hit the nail on the head.

If you look at Altaica's Organized Play character he or she has completely misunderstood how spell level and Bonus Spells works.

So at the moment, this character built is Not Legal since Bonus Spells gained from high Primary Stats, is still bound by the Spell Level allowed by your class level.

Meaning: A 1st level Oracle can only cast 0-Level and 1st Level spells augmented only by 1st level Bonus Spells from High Charisma.

2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level Bonus Spells from High Charisma will only become available when your level as an Oracle will allow you to cast these Spell Levels.

[Altaica]

Andre Roy wrote:

You've just hit the nail on the head.

If you look at Altaica's Organized Play character he or she has completely misunderstood how spell level and Bonus Spells works.

So at the moment, this character built is Not Legal since Bonus Spells gained from high Primary Stats, is still bound by the Spell Level allowed by your class level.

My GM agreed ith me that you get all bonus spell slots at level 1.

Could you point us to here in the rules it says you don't get bonus slots until you get a slot of that level normally?

[Ferious Thune]

From the section on Abilities and Spellcasters

Quote:

The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See individual class descriptions for additional details.

A 1st level Oracle does not have a high enough class level to cast a 4th level spell.

[Altaica]

Ferious Thune wrote:

From the section on Abilities and Spellcasters

Quote:

The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See individual class descriptions for additional details.

A 1st level Oracle does not have a high enough class level to cast a 4th level spell.

That's not from a PFS approved source is it?

[b]See the class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details[\b]
Oracls get the cure(or inflect) spells when that get the spell slot regardless of what level they are.
It's a chicken and the egg problem does he get the spells when he get the spell slots or does he get the spell slots when he gets the spells.

It's not clear if the "able to cast spells of a given spell level"
should be read "when casters that have known spell list learn their fist spell of that level" given Paizo's track-record of clear writing.

[Altaica]

the relevent parts fron the class desc.
"In addition, she
receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma
score (see Table 1–3 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook)"
"In addition to the spells gained by oracles as they gain
levels, each oracle also adds all of either the cure spells or
the inflict spells to her list of spells known (cure spells
include all spells with “cure” in the name, inflict spells
include all spells with “inflict” in the name). These spells
are added as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them."

[Daw]

Altaica,
They aren't lying to you, and they aren't wrong. You have come here to ask for advice from experienced if sometimes somewhat unsocialized players, they unanimously agree on what they give you (unanimity being rather rare on the forums) and you still question their advice. Odd.

[Weables]

yep, concur with everyone else. there's no reason level 1 characters get level 5 spells. think of it from a game balance perspective anyways, what would be the challenge as everyone would do exactly what you're doing, and obliterate all low level content

[Altaica]

Daw wrote:

Altaica,

They aren't lying to you, and they aren't wrong. You have come here to ask for advice from experienced if sometimes somewhat unsocialized players, they unanimously agree on what they give you (unanimity being rather rare on the forums)

Everyone agrees it breaks the game but my question is it Rules as written?

"W hen Do you iGnore the rules ?
Use the Core Rulebook and supplemental texts when at
all possible to create rulings. Because PFS aims to offer
a predictable, fair, and balanced experience at all tables
internationally, sticking to the texts is critical to ensuring an
even play experience for all players. See the Advanced Topics
handout for more information on adapting to unexpected
character actions."from PathfinderSocietyGM101

Quote:

and you still question their advice. Odd.

I'd moved on from 'it brakes the game I Wouldn't allow it' to 'but is it PFS legal'

[Magda Luckbender]

To Everyone reading: please contribute to this discussion, and thereby shorten it: please login and click Like Ferious Thune's first post, above. Anyone with a differing view please post an alternate view of their own.

Ferious Thune wrote:

I think there’s a misreading of “highest level the oracle can cast.” A 1st level Oracle can only cast 1st level spells. Having a 20 charisma doesn’t mean that you can cast 5th level spells. You only get the bonus spells when you reach a high enough level to cast that level spell normally. Imbue With Spell Ability is a 4th level spell. You need to be 8th level before you can cast it.

Otherwise, for a 10th level Oracle heightening it to 5th, Magda’s pretty much covered it.

[Ferious Thune]

Altaica wrote:

Ferious Thune wrote:

From the section on Abilities and Spellcasters

Quote:

The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See individual class descriptions for additional details.

A 1st level Oracle does not have a high enough class level to cast a 4th level spell.

That's not from a PFS approved source is it?

[b]See the class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details[\b]
Oracls get the cure(or inflect) spells when that get the spell slot regardless of what level they are.
It's a chicken and the egg problem does he get the spells when he get the spell slots or does he get the spell slots when he gets the spells.

It's not clear if the "able to cast spells of a given spell level"
should be read "when casters that have known spell list learn their fist spell of that level" given Paizo's track-record of clear writing.

It's from the Core Rulebook, page 16. I'm not sure how you get more PFS approved than that.

If you want a Paizo example, the Level 1 Iconic Oracle, Alahazra, has an 18 CHA. The spell casting section of her sheet reads:

Quote:

Oracle Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +5)

1st (4/day)—bless, command (DC 15), cure light wounds
0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, light, sparkAPG (DC 14)

Or look at any spell caster stat block in any Paizo product.

[Jeff Morse]

from the FAQ which is pfs legal
Bonus Spells from a High Ability Score: Can I use these even if my spellcasting class level isn't high enough to give me access to those spell levels?
No. You only get the bonus spells if your class level grants you access to those spell levels. You can't even use them for lower-level spells. See page 16, Abilities and Spellcasters section: "In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. "

For example, a 1st-level wizard with 18 Intelligence has (according to table 1–3: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells) 1 bonus spell at spell levels 1, 2, and 3. However, he can only use the 1st-level bonus spell because as a 1st-level wizard he only has access to 1st-level spells (his class-based number of 2nd- and 3rd-level spells per day are "—", meaning "no access to spells of this level"). As soon as he becomes a 3rd-level wizard, he gains access to his 2nd-level spell slots and can use that bonus 2nd-level spell slot from his high Intelligence, and likewise for 3rd-level spells and bonus spells at wizard level 5.

Basically, ignore the columns for higher-level spells on table 1–3: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells until your class grants you access to those spell levels.

posted July 2011 | back to tops legal
https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9o91

[Altaica]

Ferious Thune wrote:

It's from the Core Rulebook, page 16. I'm not sure how you get more PFS approved than that.

No it's not the Core book says, " See

the class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details" That quote was from the SRD which Isn't the Additional Resources. are we allowed to use the SRD in PFS? I would love to use a Sun Staff as my Holy Symbol.

[Andre Roy]

We have demonstrated that you are incorrect. We have quoted the core book and the FAQ which are both PFS legal. more to he point, unless something in the PFS Roleplaying Guild Guide, the Additional Ressource or the Csmpaign Clarification explicitely contradict the source book, then what is indicated in the book is valid in a PFS Organized Game.

But, despite this, you insist that you are right. So be it. When the Organize play GM will refuse you at his or her table because your character is illegal and when the Venture-officer (be it Agent, Lieutenant or Captain) will support the GM and tell you your character is not legal and therefore cannot be accepted on any tables. And when the Regional Venture-Coordinator will tell you the same thing...maybe you will accept that you are incorrect in this instance.

[Warped Savant]

Bonus spells are available to you once you are able to cast spells of that level. A "—" on the chart means you can't can't spells of that level yet. A "0" (see paladins or rangers for examples of this) means that you can't cast spells of that level unless you have bonus spells based on your casting stat.

Do I think me saying this will make a difference? No. You've shown that you're going to ignore what it says in the core rule book as well as the FAQ on the topic. But hey, you do you. Have fun trying to find a GM that doesn't understand the basic rules for spellcasters and will allow you to cast 5th levels spells when you're level 1.

(As a small aside, you realize that with your logic a level 1 wizard with 20 intelligence could cast "Cloudkill" which automatically kills any creatures in the area of the spell that has 3 HD or less, right? Meaning that, with what you think the rules say, a level 1 wizard can kill an entire party with a single casting of a spell if they're all within 40' of each other and they don't get a save against that spell... But you think that makes any sort of sense and is what the rules are actually saying? Yeah, no... that's not how the rules work.)

[Ferious Thune]

Altaica wrote:

Ferious Thune wrote:

It's from the Core Rulebook, page 16. I'm not sure how you get more PFS approved than that.

No it's not the Core book says, " See

the class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details" That quote was from the SRD which Isn't the Additional Resources. are we allowed to use the SRD in PFS? I would love to use a Sun Staff as my Holy Symbol.

The same language is in the Core Rulebook, except for referencing chapter 3... which is the Classes chapter.

Feel free to play the game however you and your GM want. I promise you no GM who regularly plays pathfinder society is going to share your interpretation of the rules. A 1st level character cannot cast a 5th level spell. Period. Jeff quoted the FAQ which is clarifying the already clear language from the Core Rulebook.

[Altaica]

Ferious Thune wrote:

Jeff quoted the FAQ which is clarifying the already clear language from the Core Rulebook.

Google has no record of that alleged FAQ. Seems to me he's just making stuff up to sound authoritative. but the main focus of the question was not the bonus spells it's to you allow Oracles to imbue their spontaneous spells and do you have it block a use of a 4th level spell from being used. and this is a rules forum not a opinion/rulings forum.

I don't by the argument that I wouldn't allow it so therefore it not what is written. when my GM asked if my char was PFS legal should I just have said "If you allow me to play it is."

on a side note doesn't the term for a char to be legal to play technically mean that the player owns the books and Chronicle sheets that are used to create it?

[Blake's Tiger]

Just making stuff up..? Wha? I can't even even.

He wrote out the link for you.

Here's hyperlink for you to follow.

Here's the URL:

https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9o91

[Warped Savant]

Altaica wrote:

Ferious Thune wrote:

Jeff quoted the FAQ which is clarifying the already clear language from the Core Rulebook.

Google has no record of that alleged FAQ. Seems to me he's just making stuff up to sound authoritative. but the main focus of the question was not the bonus spells it's to you allow Oracles to imbue their spontaneous spells and do you have it block a use of a 4th level spell from being used. and this is a rules forum not a opinion/rulings forum.

I don't by the argument that I wouldn't allow it so therefore it not what is written. when my GM asked if my char was PFS legal should I just have said "If you allow me to play it is."

on a side note doesn't the term for a char to be legal to play technically mean that the player owns the books and Chronicle sheets that are used to create it?

He provided you with the link to the Paizo site! You're not even paying attention to what people are saying, are you?

Here it is again: https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9o91

As for if what you're asking works for a 10th level Oracle then yes, you can use your FCB to take Imbue with Spell Ability since you can cast 5th level spells and that's only a 4th level spell. (The "Heighten" feat has no effect on this part of what you're trying to do.)
Yes, you can heighten Imbue with Spell Ability even though it won't make a difference to the spell.
As written, no, you can't transfer a spell to someone as an Oracle isn't a prepared caster but I would assum... wait.. you said you didn't want opinions so I won't bother giving mine.

EditL Ninja'ed but I'm leaving the link there just in case you don't see it in Blake's Tiger's post.

[Altaica]

Warped Savant wrote:

Bonus spells are available to you once you are able to cast spells of that level. A "—" on the chart means you can't can't spells of that level yet. A "0" (see paladins or rangers for examples of this) means that you can't cast spells of that level unless you have bonus spells based on your casting stat.

If he has 0 slotthen he can't cast the spell so RAw he doesn't get the spell. it's a example of the specific overriding the general. The Oracle desc just says to that he gets the bonus spells off the table not that he get the bonus spells at outlined in 'Abilities and Spellcasters'

Quote:

Do I think me saying this will make a difference? No. You've shown that you're going to ignore what it says in the core rule book as well as the FAQ on the topic.

until you're GMing a game I'm playing I'm viewing your rulings with passing intrest. do you know why you did say that? I question is you're just trolling me. do I'm saying this because I'm giving you the benefit of a doubt and this is on the pleasent side of useual conversations and I need to practice my socializing skills. You don't seem to finding the conversation enjoyable or have anything to contribite to the converation to say. Is it just to chime in a 'me too'?

Quote:

Have fun trying to find a GM that doesn't understand the basic rules for spellcasters and will allow you to cast 5th levels spells when you're level 1.

I've already found one. and the fact that we came to under 10 HPs away from a TPK I think justifies that the character isn't over powered.

Quote:

(As a small aside, you realize that with your logic a level 1 wizard with 20 intelligence could cast "Cloudkill" which automatically kills any creatures in the area of the spell that has 3 HD or less, right?

No my interpritation is that unless he is at a class level that allows him to learn a spell of that level he couldn't get the spell slot.

"A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all
0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited
schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level
spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number
of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence
modifier to add to the spellbook." There is nothing about him getting higher level spells at first lvl in the class description.

if paizo released a feat that gave oracle a 4th level that you took as 1lvl wouldn't the oracle get cure sever wounds(or what ever the 4lvl cure spell is)?

The wizard doesn't get a spell until he gets a spell slot for it and he dosn't get a spell slot for it until he get a a specific level. By my logic a wizard would gets the slot which gives him the spell which gives him the bonus slot. if it read "These spells
are added as soon as the oracle reaches a level capable of casting them." instead of "These spells
are added as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them." then no an oracle wouldn't get the bonus slots

I would never write the rules for bonus spell slots in such a riddle unless I was griefing or making quick notes to myself in the middle of the night.

Quote:

Meaning that, with what you think the rules say, a level 1 wizard can kill an entire party with a single casting of a spell if they're all within 40' of each other and they don't get a save against that spell... But you think that makes any sort of sense and is what the rules are actually saying? Yeah, no... that's not how the rules work.)

Sleep, tie them up then kill them at your leisure. this happened to my party, and it as friendly fire too.

[Ferious Thune]

At the point where you’re only playing under a single GM and ignoring FAQs from Paizo, you’re not playing PFS. You aren’t going to be able to take that character to any PFS tables outside your area/that single GM. You’re firmly in home game territory. Several people here have provided you with rules citations why.

I really do hope you have fun playing, as it’s a game and should be fun. People here are trying to be helpful since this is meant to be an organized play character, and other organized play GMs are not going to allow it to work the way you think it works. If you don’t expect to be playing at any of their tables, ever, then play the game the way you want to play it, and enjoy.

For anyone else who finds this thread and is wondering, no, per the rules, you don’t get bonus spells until you can cast that level spell. See above for multiple citations why.

[Altaica]

Blake's Tiger wrote:

Just making stuff up..? Wha? I can't even even.

If it not indexed by Google then it's not on the net. :P

Sorry .

I just googled the quote and didn't find anything, I missed the footnote on his post

sorry.

But that's FAQ is only about the core book not the advanced players book. and It says spells not spell slots. if the class desc of a wizard gave a 5lvl spell slot that couldn't be used for 5lvl spells(and he did have any normal 5lvl spell slots; still useful for metamagic) then I wouldn't give him the bonus spell slots.

This stims from the fact that nowhere is there a limit on how many spells you can prepare. The "You must have a spell slot capable of holding it available" is nowhere in the googleable universe.

There is references made to a daily limit to the amount he can prepare but I can't even find one ref to a total limit.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Altaica wrote:

Blake's Tiger wrote:

Just making stuff up..? Wha? I can't even even.

If it not indexed by Google then it's not on the net. :P

Sorry .

I just googled the quote and didn't find anything, I missed the footnote on his post

sorry.

But that's FAQ is only about the core book not the advanced players book. and It says spells not spell slots. if the class desc of a wizard gave a 5lvl spell slot that couldn't be used for 5lvl spells(and he did have any normal 5lvl spell slots; still useful for metamagic) then I wouldn't give him the bonus spell slots.

This stims from the fact that nowhere is there a limit on how many spells you can prepare. The "You must have a spell slot capable of holding it available" is nowhere in the googleable universe.

There is references made to a daily limit to the amount he can prepare but I can't even find one ref to a total limit.

Page 218 from the Core Rulebook might help.

[Blake's Tiger]

Quote:

If it not indexed by Google then it's not on the net.

They do not index anything using HTTPS, which is where the Paizo FAQs can be found.

Game companies typically do not reprint the core rules in their expansion books.

If the Oracle only uses the rules in the APG and excludes the rules in the CRB, your Oracle cannot participate in combat or make skill checks or even use spells because all thise rules are in the CRB.

But the Oracle can do those things because the APG relies upon the foundation of the rules in the CRB so FAQs regarding those rules are just as foundational.

Furthermore, the Sorcerer existed in the CRB to which that FAQ applies and functions just as an oracle in regards to gaining spells and spell casting.

[JiaYou]

Altaica wrote:

Blake's Tiger wrote:

Just making stuff up..? Wha? I can't even even.

If it not indexed by Google then it's not on the net. :P

Sorry .

I just googled the quote and didn't find anything, I missed the footnote on his post

sorry.

But that's FAQ is only about the core book not the advanced players book. and It says spells not spell slots. if the class desc of a wizard gave a 5lvl spell slot that couldn't be used for 5lvl spells(and he did have any normal 5lvl spell slots; still useful for metamagic) then I wouldn't give him the bonus spell slots.

If the Advanced Player's Guide overrode the Core Rulebook the CRB would have been rewritten to suit.

I will say that this last thing you said is incorrect. IF YOU HAVE THE SLOT, in general you can always put a spell of that level OR lower in that slot, unless specific trumps general (e.g. Domain and Wizard specialization slots).

And your point about the spells vs spell slots is exactly right. Your wizard can have the 9th level spell Meteor Swarm in his spellbook, but until he/she hits caster level 17 cannot actually cast the spell.

Last thing: Paizo very often comes up with rulings that don't have a HUGE basis in internal logic (see Fencing and Slashing Grace), and amount to "because we said so."

So EVEN IF you've found a way that you swear is how the book expresses something, and that all of us are mistaken, the point is that Paizo has as clearly AS THEY FEEL AS NECESSARY told you your interpretation is incorrect. Your home game DM can do whatever he wants, but if you told him your concept is PFS legal is not correct.

[Warped Savant]

Altaica wrote:

Warped Savant wrote:

Meaning that, with what you think the rules say, a level 1 wizard can kill an entire party with a single casting of a spell if they're all within 40' of each other and they don't get a save against that spell... But you think that makes any sort of sense and is what the rules are actually saying? Yeah, no... that's not how the rules work.)

Sleep, tie them up then kill them at your leisure. this happened to my party, and it as friendly fire too.

That is not the same thing for a few reasons... 1) People targeted by Sleep get a Will save 2) Sleep is a 10' burst so can effect very few people that all have to be close together 3) only effects 4HD total of people 4) while leaving them helpless doesn't outright kill them.

Altaica wrote:

everything else

Sometimes logic and inference needs to be applied while playing a role-playing game. I'm sorry that you're having a hard time with this particular rule based on how it's worded in the book. I see where you're coming from, but your interpretation is from a poorly worded paragraph.

EVERYONE:
The problem is the paragraph:

Quote:

In addition to the spells gained by oracles as they gain levels, each oracle also adds all of either the cure spells or the inflict spells to her list of spells known (cure spells include all spells with “cure” in the name, inflict spells include all spells with “inflict” in the name). These spells are added as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them. This choice is made when the oracle gains her first level and cannot be changed.

Because it says "in addition to the spells gained...as they gain levels, each oracle also adds all...cure spells" which (I assume) Altaica is taking to mean that oracles start with all cure or inflict spells and is able to cast them as it doesn't spell out when you're "capable of casting" a spell. (Yes, oracle's are capable of casting a spell once they reach high enough level to have access to those spell slots but it's not implicitly stated anywhere obvious.)

Can anyone point to where it specifically stated that oracles can't cast spells of certain levels until they're high enough level? (Yes, I know it's obvious to most people that oracles don't start with, and are able to cast, all cure spells, but Altaica is having a problem with the wording so hopefully we can help.)

[Blake's Tiger]

Quote:

Can anyone point to where it specifically stated that oracles can't cast spells of certain levels until they're high enough level? (Yes, I know it's obvious to most people that oracles don't start with, and are able to cast, all cure spells, but Altaica is having a problem with the wording so hopefully we can help.)

The FAQ that has been cited and linked multiple times.

Don't egg him on.

[Warped Savant]

Blake's Tiger wrote:

Don't egg him on.

Having compassion and understanding for someone isn't egging them on.

He believes that the FAQ doesn't apply because it's for the core book and not the APG. He also believes that the wording specific to oracles regarding cure/inflict spells overrides the general rule that you only have access to spells when the chart of spells per level says you get those spells.
Based on his reading, he gets all cure spells and can cast bonus spells up to level 5 based on his charisma at level 1.

I know this interpretation is wrong, but hopefully someone can find something worded more precisely for oracles to help Altaica create a PFS legal character.
(And the whole thing is made worse by his GM either misinterpreting the rules as well or the GM not paying enough attention to the character sheet.)

[Ferious Thune]

The language in the Pathfinder rules just isn’t that precise. Things are often not repeated to save space in the books. The best thing that I can point him to is the iconic oracle character sheet, which is a 1st level oracle built by Paizo with an 18 Charisma that does not have the ability to cast 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level spells. Unfortunately, U.S, copyright law prevents me from linking directly to the sheet, so all I can do is quote the section listing spellcasting like I did upthread.

Iconic Oracle Character Shert wrote:

Oracle Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +5)

1st (4/day)—bless, command (DC 15), cure light wounds
0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, light, sparkAPG (DC 14)

[Blake's Tiger]

Warped Savant wrote:

Blake's Tiger wrote:

Don't egg him on.

Having compassion and understanding for someone isn't egging them on.

No, you have that backwards: egging him on is neither compassion nor understanding,

You know he is misinterpreting the rules. You know that Oracles cannot cast spells of levels that their class has not yet granted. You know that the FAQ applies to his question/misunderstanding.

Yet, despite this, you jump on his bandwagon and join the demand for wording that specifically states that the Oracle does not gain access to spells of levels that their class level does not grant.

This sentence does not exist. But your post is precisely the fuel he needs to defend his erronious interpretation: "See? Someone agrees with me!"

So you are doing him a disservice, certainly not being compassionate, and may be being intentionally cruel.

[Warped Savant]

Blake's Tiger, there is a difference between agreeing with someone and being able to see why they are misinterpreting something.
Same as how there's a difference between asking if someone can point at something to help someone out versus demanding something.
Repeating the same rule, in the same wording, isn't going to help Altaica in realizing that he's wrong.
Things like pointing out that the iconic oracle doesn't have any spells above level 1 might help (thank you for pointing it out again, Ferious Thune) but it might not.

Altaica -- Talk to your GM about this thread, make sure the GM understands that your character is level 1 and that you think the rules say you have access to higher level spells because they're cure spells and because your characters charisma is 20.
If he still agrees with you then he is wrong but will obviously allow it in his game. (I highly doubt you'll find someone else that agrees with that ruling so you most likely won't be able to play the character with any other GM).
If you want someone on this board to agree with you and say that a level 1 oracle can cast a level 5 cure spell you're out of luck. The FAQ indicates that you only get the bonus spells if your class level grants you access to those spell levels. Yes, it's the core book FAQ but it applies to all Pathfinder products. A level 1 oracle has access to first level spells. The amount of spells is 3 + the amount of bonus level 1 spells the character gets based on their charisma score.

[ShardRah]

Ferious Thune wrote:

You aren’t going to be able to take that character to any PFS tables outside your area/that single GM.

my point is that it's unfair to not allow my other players

the option to take their chars to other tables outside out area/our two GMs just because they played with my char. i'm pretty sure that is push comes to shove they our group with just stop handing out official Chronicle sheets and keep playing as usual

Quote:

Several people here have provided you with rules citations why.

They all provided my with the same sentence that states RAw that you get access to higher level spells when you get the bonus spell slot.

If anyone is will to argue linguistics with me feel free. but the fact that enough people interpreted the core to mean that the class descriptions give the bonus spells slots out at first level is proof that it is a valid interpretation of the text. AND the FAQ just clarified that "a spellcaster must be of a high enough
class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level" just means that the two are tired together and if the class description gives bonus slots out before they would normaly be able to has access to those spells(meaning thing like cloudkill not spell slots) of those spell level.
Not any one has given me a citation of where is stats the daily limit on spell preparations. the only daily limit 'Like other spellcasters, a druid can cast only a
certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her
base daily spell allotment is given on Table 3–7.' & "His high Intelligence score might
allow him to prepare a few extra spells. ' So their is president for 'able to cast a spell' and prepare a spell interchangeably.

Quote:

I really do hope you have fun playing, as it’s a game and should be fun.

I play Pathfinder because it's part om my therapy. but it does have it moments where the rules don't get in the way of my role playing. I just wish I could make a char without it being unplayable.

AS I mentioned else where my group is role player that like to see how much trouble they can get into which hinders our able to Roll play. between the not earning EX/Prestige points and half the players dying it's not looking good for playing anything farther than 2lvl.

Quote:

People here are trying to be helpful since this is meant to be an organized play character, and other organized play GMs are not going to allow it to work the way you think it works.

I know that most GM's are going to issue a ruling that Oracles don't get the high level bonus spell slot. but I think it just as valid to issue a ruling that that can't learn high level spells and can use them for the low level spells they have as RAw. I keep asking "is there an unambiguous description of what level. with Paizos habit of beating around the bush of how the mechanics of the game work.

the only rules I got where in specific to the classes in Core.

And I don't like that the question about how to interpret the Core books anwers the question by quoteing the core rule book. It's obviously a common interpretation if it's in the FAQ it should be in the errata as a rule clearification. not just an FAQ that says "You get them at the level you get them. It's obvious to me what that is so if you can't get it you're an idiot."

Quote:

If you don’t expect to be playing at any of their tables, ever, then play the game the way you want to play it, and enjoy.

For anyone else who finds this thread and is wondering, no, per the rules, you don’t get bonus spells until you can cast that level spell. See above for multiple citations why.

Multiple citations? they are just quote the core and the FAQ just give an example of the only class that gives a level other than 1 for when you do get bonus spells at a lvl other than 1 and even then is a clarification about the class description gives two different levels. to be specfic wizards don't get there spell level because even thou their class description says that they get all their bonus spells as base class feature it takes them back away again until they are given a spell slot of that level and then are able to prepare a spell of that level. from IMBUE WITH SPELL ABILITy:"You transfer some of your currently prepared spells, and the

ability to cast them, to another creature." So you see in order to be able to cast a spell you need to be have it prepared and have a spell slot of that lvl or higher. Since wizards don't get the ability to prepare spells of a level specific level at a specific class level, but from having a spell of that lvl in their spellbook.

I challenge you to find another intrepretation that holds that "In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he
has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1–3)" it doesn't give a at x lvl so it's a base feature that happens at lvl one. and it not errataed out so is correct and hold that wizards don't get their

Clerics can prepare any spell on the cleric spell list and she gets that ablilty just for being a lvl1 cleric. "a divine spellcaster’s spell selection is limited to the spells on the list for her class" therefore she gets both the parts it takes to be able to cast a spell based on her character level. wizards get only half of their access spells of a specific level based they get the other half from their spell book.

Oracles on the other hand get the ability to cast the cure spells, "as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them." They get the bonus slots at first lvl and having the slot of that lvl is all that is required for her to be able to cast it. no addetions non level based ability is required for a which makes the rule that if you have the bonus spell slots then you are not limited to just preparing lower lvl spells in them. so the FAQ is correct when it says, "You only get the bonus spells if your class level grants you access to those spell levels. You can't even use them for lower-level spells." you have to get access based on character lvl which means you have to have a spell slot of the level of higher and ability to put a spell of that level into based off of character lvl not based of of some other criteria(like the spell being in you spell book). Oracles and Cleric get then spells of that level when they get the bonus slots so you don't get them at a lover level than you get access to those spells of the lvl. If you have high enough stats it just so happens that for some classes that that lvl is 1.

why do you refuse to say "You get your bonus spell slots at the level that too get a stranded spell slot of that level"? when we all know know that that is what it the rules are intended to be. and that a significant portion of new players interpret your phrasing wrongly.

me: oracles her their bonus spells at lvl 1 right?
you: No 1st lvl chars don't get bonus slots.
me:where does it say that?
you: the Core FAQ, "...a spellcaster must be of a high enough
class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level..."
me:"a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level"?
you: yes! see at a caster level that greats access to spells of that lvl.
Me:But Oracles are granted high lvl spells slots at lvl1.
You: I made this build of a wizard and didn't give his bonus spell slots untill he reach higher level.
Me:I made a build of a oracle that did get her bonus spell slots.
You: But that's not how we play it here!
me:Could you walk me though the rules?
You:"a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level." there for the part were is says, "In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1–3)."
ME: that's a non sequester. but I don't want to commit fallacy of assuming your argument didn't prove your right that your conclusions are wrong. A broken clock is still right twice a day after all. Ok if a stand on one leg and squint realy hard I can kinda see it. let me walk you though it.
you: see you where wrong. please apologize.
ME: hold on a minute, I had to break half the rules on how you should interpret text and assume youre where thying your hardest to mislead us to make make your case stick? and text can have more than one correct interpretation. don't commit the fallacy of the excluded middle.
you:...
Me: Can we atlest issue a rules clarification?
you: sure, "You don't get your bonus spells at first level you get them at the level that grants to access to that spell level."
me:really?
you: what?
me:How about, "You get your bonus spell slots when you get a normal spell slot of that level."
You: no!
Me: I enjoyed the "The test of a first-rate intelligence" that argue both side of our debate turned into but can i get a thank you for holding up your side of the conversation for you?
You:your rude.
Me:i would rather be a helpful jerk then a good intended idiot that ends up hurting those that he's trying to help.
you: It's the thought that counts!

[Blake's Tiger]

Let us try this:

Why do you think an Oracle is treated differently than a sorcerer?
Why do you think the Oracle gets access to higher level spells.

We've given our arguments. The neurotypical community has a consensus that our argument is the correct conclusion.

What is you argument other than "because I believe it to be true?"