Can someone correct me if I am wrong, because everywhere I read that 2H damage far surpasses TWF, but that is not what I have experienced.
Brawler hinyasi level is 8. He has power attack, vital strike and furious focus and shikigami style.
At level 8 I have this:
Str=18, +4 mod
2H-improvised weapon- 1d10 (from himyasi brawler using unarmed damage) , enlarged from shikigami to 2d8.
Vital strike makes it 4d8 on a single attack. Bonuses to damage are 6(str x1.5) + 9 (PA)
That yields a max total damage of 47.
Flip side...TWF
Improvised weapon is 1d10, enlarged from shikigami to 2d8.
Brawlers flurry lets me make 4 total hits. Each at 2d8. Bonus damage from strength bonus and power attack on both main hand attacks is 10 each (4 str + 6 PA). Bonus to off hand is 7 each (4 str + 3 PA).
This yields a max total damage of 98.
Am I missing something?? Other than the slight penalties to hit with multiple attacks, the damage isn't even close.
This is only my second campaign, so I'm not 100% I'm doing that right but I think so.
I would love some advice on if this is correct and if there is anyway of boosting my 2H damage, that doesn't necessarily boost the twf at same time.
Thanks in advance.
Being able to trade out damage die changes things. Most of the time using TWF, you have 1d6, not 2d8. The 2H weapon would also attack twice instead of Vital Strike, increasing the damage by 15.
TWF always does more damage, IF it hits. That's the problem though. You are taking a -2 to each attack, which lowers DPR by 10%. You are also comparing technically two feats (Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting) to one feat (Vital Strike) without stating the major difference - The vital strike character moved his full speed, or can. The TWF didn't.
A normal build would look something like at level 8 (22 Str with magic items, +3 weapon for 2H weapon, +2 for TWF)
Butchering Axe (3d6) 2H weapon (Power Attack, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus)
10.5 (average 3d6) + 9 Str + 9 Power Attack + 3 Magic Weapon = 31 damage per hit.
Gladius (Two Weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, Double Slice)
3.5 (average 1d6) + 6 Str + 2 Magic Weapon = 11 x 2 = 22 damage with both weapons.
Being able to trade out damage die changes things. Most of the time using TWF, you have 1d6, not 2d8. The 2H weapon would also attack twice instead of Vital Strike, increasing the damage by 15.
TWF always does more damage, IF it hits. That's the problem though. You are taking a -2 to each attack, which lowers DPR by 10%. You are also comparing technically two feats (Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting) to one feat (Vital Strike) without stating the major difference - The vital strike character moved his full speed, or can. The TWF didn't.
A normal build would look something like at level 8 (22 Str with magic items, +3 weapon for 2H weapon, +2 for TWF)
Butchering Axe (3d6) 2H weapon (Power Attack, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus)
10.5 (average 3d6) + 9 Str + 9 Power Attack + 3 Magic Weapon = 31 damage per hit.Gladius (Two Weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, Double Slice)
3.5 (average 1d6) + 6 Str + 2 Magic Weapon = 11 x 2 = 22 damage with both weapons.
Thank you for the response. You are right, you do get your move action still with the 2H. So all of the people that say 2H has more damage output aren't really giving the full story.
Technically it's always less damage but you still have your move action and it's easier to hit.
Most 2H would be full attacking as well (given the chance), not using Vital Strike. You got a full attack off with your example and 4 full attacks with TWF/ITWF as the Brawler. The Brawler also gets to fully with 1 weapon, meaning you don't have to enchant 2 weapons, and gets full Str (and power attack damage) to all attacks.
Basically, the Brawler cheats for TWF.
TWF is your build if you go down it, seeing as it is 4 Feats with Double Slice, versus 2H just only taking Power Attack and calling it a day.
I ended up building 2 different Shikigami characters. A Makeshift Scrapper Rogue who used the 2H Vital Strike route, and a Brawler Hinyasi who used light thrown improvised with Clustered Shots.
They're both comparable in their own ways. The Rogue's massive single hit an mobility are huge, though in technicality the Brawler does have significantly more potential damage, and as a ranged character has the option of targeting multiple targets. (The Rogue can throw the 2H with 2H thrower, hiwever as a Str build, the Dex to attack while not terrible is less ideal than the maxed Str melee attack with more often than not flanking and sneak.)
All in all, both have their advantages depending on how you want to play the character.
I've seen some rules disagreements over whether Hinyasi can even take advantage of Shikigami Style, since the replacement of improvised weapon damage with unarmed damage isn't optional, and Shikigami does nothing to boost the unarmed damage dice.
Yes I saw that too. But I kinda followed this logic:
Hinyasi lets you use improvised weapons for brawlers flurry and changes the damage dice for improvised weapons. It doesn't change improvised weapons to unarmed strikes. So you are still wielding improvised weapons when you attack.Shikigami says when you attack with improvised weapons, they deal damage one size category larger.
I appreciate all the feed back from everyone. Lots to consider.
I guess the moral of the story is, all things considered, if you have to move and strike, 2H does more potential dmg, and if you use a full round attack, TWF has more potential damage output.
So why not take quickdraw, and be a "switch" hitter when situation requires it?
I ended up building 2 different Shikigami characters. A Makeshift Scrapper Rogue who used the 2H Vital Strike route, and a Brawler Hinyasi who used light thrown improvised with Clustered Shots.
They're both comparable in their own ways. The Rogue's massive single hit an mobility are huge, though in technicality the Brawler does have significantly more potential damage, and as a ranged character has the option of targeting multiple targets. (The Rogue can throw the 2H with 2H thrower, hiwever as a Str build, the Dex to attack while not terrible is less ideal than the maxed Str melee attack with more often than not flanking and sneak.)
All in all, both have their advantages depending on how you want to play the character.
I just read the clustered shots feat, but dont really understand when its so beneficial.
If you use brawlers flurry, you can throw as many weapons in a full round as make melee attacks? And the clustered shots lets you add up all that damage and apply it to one target? Couldnt you do that anyways without the feat? Im slightly confused there....
It is interesting to use the Phantom Thief with Shikigami style ...
What do you think is possible?
I guess the moral of the story is, all things considered, if you have to move and strike, 2H does more potential dmg, and if you use a full round attack, TWF has more potential damage output.
Yup. That's basically it.
There's also a difference between what new and what experienced players do with their feats. If you're a Strength-based ranger that spent two feats on TWF and ITWF, your 2H slayer pal might have "wasted" those feats on Weapon Focus and Toughness.
If the slayer had instead taken Hurtful and Cornugon Smash, they'd get another attack. They're also able to use a reach weapon, so they might get an additional attack when enemies approach them.
More attacks are always great. TWF isn't the only way to get more attacks, though. And two-handed benefit more from gaining additional attacks.
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In your lv 8 example, you'd need to account for chance to hit and average damage. But I can confidently say that your character should always Flurry if they have the choice.
The brawler is made for TWF, while you'd normally have to spend feats and fulfill dexterity requirements. So a brawler is definitely better at TWF than two-handed because they already get all relevant feats as part of their class.
I just read the clustered shots feat, but dont really understand when its so beneficial.
If you use brawlers flurry, you can throw as many weapons in a full round as make melee attacks? And the clustered shots lets you add up all that damage and apply it to one target? Couldnt you do that anyways without the feat? Im slightly confused there...
Say a creature has DR 5/-. That would mean each attack you make against tge creature would lose 5 damage, si in the Brawler's 7 attacks, it would be equivalent to DR 35/-.
Clustered Shots counts all the hits as one attack when considering DR, so you're only losing 5 damage total, not 5 per hit.
As far as I could tell, the Hinyasi used the damage die of their unarmed strike for improvised, but their improvised don't get the qualities like bypassing DR or counting as magic. Thus the character needed Gloves of Improvised Might +5, and some way to bypass DR. The choices were Penetrating Strike for a 2H or melee build (not available for the Rogue as a fighter feat), or Clustered Shots fir a ranged build.
Thanks everyone for the great answers. This has been very helpful.
I just read the clustered shots feat, but dont really understand when its so beneficial.
If you use brawlers flurry, you can throw as many weapons in a full round as make melee attacks? And the clustered shots lets you add up all that damage and apply it to one target? Couldnt you do that anyways without the feat? Im slightly confused there...Say a creature has DR 5/-. That would mean each attack you make against tge creature would lose 5 damage, si in the Brawler's 7 attacks, it would be equivalent to DR 35/-.
Clustered Shots counts all the hits as one attack when considering DR, so you're only losing 5 damage total, not 5 per hit.
As far as I could tell, the Hinyasi used the damage die of their unarmed strike for improvised, but their improvised don't get the qualities like bypassing DR or counting as magic. Thus the character needed Gloves of Improvised Might +5, and some way to bypass DR. The choices were Penetrating Strike for a 2H or melee build (not available for the Rogue as a fighter feat), or Clustered Shots fir a ranged build.
Oh wow, ok clustered shots is a great feat for throwers than.
Is there a similar feat for melee?
Looks like penetrating strike only applies to named DR, not untyped.
Thanks everyone for the great answers. This has been very helpful.I just read the clustered shots feat, but dont really understand when its so beneficial.
If you use brawlers flurry, you can throw as many weapons in a full round as make melee attacks? And the clustered shots lets you add up all that damage and apply it to one target? Couldnt you do that anyways without the feat? Im slightly confused there...Say a creature has DR 5/-. That would mean each attack you make against tge creature would lose 5 damage, si in the Brawler's 7 attacks, it would be equivalent to DR 35/-.
Clustered Shots counts all the hits as one attack when considering DR, so you're only losing 5 damage total, not 5 per hit.
As far as I could tell, the Hinyasi used the damage die of their unarmed strike for improvised, but their improvised don't get the qualities like bypassing DR or counting as magic. Thus the character needed Gloves of Improvised Might +5, and some way to bypass DR. The choices were Penetrating Strike for a 2H or melee build (not available for the Rogue as a fighter feat), or Clustered Shots fir a ranged build.
Oh wow, ok clustered shots is a great feat for throwers than.
Is there a similar feat for melee?
Looks like penetrating strike only applies to named DR, not untyped.
Greater Penetrating Strike works on DR/-.
Pummeling Style would do it but explicitly only works with Unarmed Strikes.People generally recommended Hammer the Gap or other feats that increaee damage on subsequent hits in order to just outpower the DR. Combat Rhythm + Power Attack would be a decent combination.
People generally recommended Hammer the Gap or other feats that increaee damage on subsequent hits in order to just outpower the DR.
I have never seen anyone recommend Hammer the Gap. Its biggest fault is that it requires consecutive hits, while providing a worse benefit than Weapon Specialization unless you hit with five or more (consecutive) attack per turn.
Combat Rhythm actually looks pretty good, since you won't lose the benefit if one attack misses.
Is it reasonable to say that with quick draw, you could use a full round attack to hit with your 2H, use a fee action to release your off hand, quickdraw free action to pull a second weapon and then make your iterative attacks with said off hand?
Obviously twf penalty would apply, but is that correct use of quick draw?
Is it reasonable to say that with quick draw, you could use a full round attack to hit with your 2H, use a fee action to release your off hand, quickdraw free action to pull a second weapon and then make your iterative attacks with said off hand?
Obviously twf penalty would apply, but is that correct use of quick draw?
I mean... RAW yes? That's a lot of free actions though a DM would likely kibosh. (I also don't think you can free action quick draw and release your 2H weapon simultaneously.)
The Hinyasi can already use TWF's bonus attacks with a single weapon, so even 2H it would have as many attacks as the Brawler's Flurry anyway, there'd be little reason to do... What you're describing.
Is it reasonable to say that with quick draw, you could use a full round attack to hit with your 2H, use a fee action to release your off hand, quickdraw free action to pull a second weapon and then make your iterative attacks with said off hand?
Obviously twf penalty would apply, but is that correct use of quick draw?I mean... RAW yes? That's a lot of free actions though a DM would likely kibosh. (I also don't think you can free action quick draw and release your 2H weapon simultaneously.)
The Hinyasi can already use TWF's bonus attacks with a single weapon, so even 2H it would have as many attacks as the Brawler's Flurry anyway, there'd be little reason to do... What you're describing.
But doesn't twf stipulate that you are using either a light or one handed weapon inyour off hand,, thats what the penalties are based on...so then you wouldn't be able to flurry with a 2H weapon?
Or does the flurry grant you the extra attacks with a 2H weapon as well and you take the -2 to hit for each additional attack?
It's just Brawler's Flurry.
Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler’s flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. ...
It's just Brawler's Flurry.
Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler’s flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. ...
I had totally mis-read that..wow.
Thanks for that.
it makes a difference. E.g., Power Attack.It's just Brawler's Flurry.
Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler’s flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. ...
I had totally mis-read that..wow.
Thanks for that.
So at level 8, with a full round attack, brawlers flurry and a 2H weapon, how many attacks would i get?
Because i have been using 2 weapons for a total of 4 attacks, all at -2....
But Brawler's Flurry is just Two Weapon Fighting. I'm fairly certain the 2 handed weapon referred to here is in consideration of a double weapon being used.Is it reasonable to say that with quick draw, you could use a full round attack to hit with your 2H, use a fee action to release your off hand, quickdraw free action to pull a second weapon and then make your iterative attacks with said off hand?
Obviously twf penalty would apply, but is that correct use of quick draw?I mean... RAW yes? That's a lot of free actions though a DM would likely kibosh. (I also don't think you can free action quick draw and release your 2H weapon simultaneously.)
The Hinyasi can already use TWF's bonus attacks with a single weapon, so even 2H it would have as many attacks as the Brawler's Flurry anyway, there'd be little reason to do... What you're describing.
I guess that makes sense.
But it doesnt specifically state double weapons...
Brawler's Flurry is not "just Two Weapon Fighting", hence the additional language in the ability description. A brawler can flurry (as in "two weapon fight") with a single weapon if desired so long as the weapon is either a monk weapon or a weapon in the close weapons fighter weapon group. Want seven attacks with a seven-branched sword at brawler 16? Get proficiency and Bob's your uncle.
Brawler's Flurry is not "just Two Weapon Fighting", hence the additional language in the ability description. A brawler can flurry (as in "two weapon fight") with a single weapon if desired so long as the weapon is either a monk weapon or a weapon in the close weapons fighter weapon group. Want seven attacks with a seven-branched sword at brawler 16? Get proficiency and Bob's your uncle.
So if that's the case, what would be the penalties to hit using a 2H weapon?
An interesting idea from "King_of_Castamere":
Human (FCB, Heart of fields) Hinyasi Brawler 1/Armored Hulk Barbarian 14
22 Strength 16 Dexterity 14 Constitution 11 Intelligence 10 Wisdom 7 Charisma
Rage Powers: Smasher, Lesser Hurling, Hurling, Greater Hurling, Hurling Charge, Superstition, Body Bludgeon
Feats: Catch Off-guard, Throw Anything, Two Handed Thrower, Improved Grapple, Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Shikigami Style, Shikigami Mimicry, Shikigami Manipulation
or Armored Hulk replaced by Urban Barbarian
Brawler's Flurry is not "just Two Weapon Fighting", hence the additional language in the ability description. A brawler can flurry (as in "two weapon fight") with a single weapon if desired so long as the weapon is either a monk weapon or a weapon in the close weapons fighter weapon group. Want seven attacks with a seven-branched sword at brawler 16? Get proficiency and Bob's your uncle.So if that's the case, what would be the penalties to hit using a 2H weapon?
The single weapon is being used to attack as the main weapon and as the offhand weapon. Since it's being wielded in two hands, it can't be a light weapon; ergo, the offhand weapon is not a light weapon. So, -4 to all attacks, just as though the brawler were two-weapon fighting with two non-light weapons.
The single weapon is being used to attack as the main weapon and as the offhand weapon. Since it's being wielded in two hands, it can't be a light weapon; ergo, the offhand weapon is not a light weapon. So, -4 to all attacks, just as though the brawler were two-weapon fighting with two non-light weapons.Brawler's Flurry is not "just Two Weapon Fighting", hence the additional language in the ability description. A brawler can flurry (as in "two weapon fight") with a single weapon if desired so long as the weapon is either a monk weapon or a weapon in the close weapons fighter weapon group. Want seven attacks with a seven-branched sword at brawler 16? Get proficiency and Bob's your uncle.So if that's the case, what would be the penalties to hit using a 2H weapon?
Yup, that would be accurate. Similarly to how I mentioned Hinyasi don't get the other aspects of the Unarmed Strike (DR bypassing etc.), base Close Weapon Mastery doesn't change any aspects if the weapon. So you'd take -4 on all attacks with a 2H brawler.
Not that that's a huge penalty on a full BAB class.