Stunned & Paralyzed Conditions

[orphias]

In my groups latest playtest they encountered ghouls. A couple of the PCs were paralyzed.

After checking the condition modifiers I was surprised to discover that by RAW all a paralyzed creature suffers is that they are considered Flat-Footed -2 AC ?
You don't even loose Dex? LOL

This made me look up Stunned, and the only penalty applied is that you loose your actions. Your not even considered Flat-Footed.

This seems like a Huge nerf to these conditions. The only real negative to both is that you loose your actions for the round.

Personally I am not a fan. Thoughts?

[Raylyeh]

Ya I’m right there with you. My group had the paralyzed condition come up and when we started comparing different debilitating conditions they were strange and a little underwhelming. It has been brought up in other threads and the developers are aware. We’ll have to see what they’ll look like for the final cut.

[Nettah]

Yea while loosing your actions is a very harsh penalty it just doesn't feel right that in a stunned or paralyzed state you are a lot less vulnerable than you would be if you were asleep or unconscious. So I think both should include flat-footed and maybe either the same penalty as asleep and unconscious or half that if that is more balanced. But I would actually think being asleep allowed your reflexes to work a bit better to avoid danger than a paralyzed body would.

I am personally a fan of removing loosing dex to ac and have a set conditional and circumstance penalty instead.

[DerNils]

Whichever way they go, they should make sure that they feel internally consistent. Right now, the differnces between paralyzed/asleep/unconscious feel very strange and could lead to a serious disconnect between na ing and expectations.

[Starfox]

I'm all for the new simplified conditions. In fact, I'd like them further simplified - paralyzed and stunned could be the same in effect as far as I am concerned.

[Megistone]

Well, I picture stunned as a condition where you can't take complex actions, but can still defend yourself to an extent.
I don't know how the developers view a paralyzed person instead: it seems that you aren't completely immobile either, since the penalties given by that condition are much less severe than when the character is asleep.

There are inconsistencies, anyway.

[Nettah]

A bit off-topic but reading through the conditions got me thinking.

How does improved evasion work with the automatically crit fail happening when you are asleep or unconscious?

1) You crit fail as stated in the condition, but then your improved evasion kicks in reducing it to a fail (if it's damage you only take half damage).

2) You crit fail straight up, because this is a specific rule.

But yea once again on topic, the current fact that paralyzed wouldn't affect your reflex at all does seem incredibly weird.

[Edge93]

I would call it specific vs. general. Unconscious generally makes you crit fail reflex. This is the blanket effect it applies to whoever.

Improved Evasion causes you specifically to turn crit fails into fails.

So fail in the end.

Improved Evasion letting you mitigate AoE even in your sleep sounds metal as frick. XD

[Captain Morgan]

Edge93 wrote:

I would call it specific vs. general. Unconscious generally makes you crit fail reflex. This is the blanket effect it applies to whoever.

Improved Evasion causes you specifically to turn crit fails into fails.

So fail in the end.

Improved Evasion letting you mitigate AoE even in your sleep sounds metal as frick. XD

I feel like "wake up as you start to take damage, then roll out of the way of the worst of it" is no weirder than however evasion (or crit success on AoE) is supposed to work in the first place.

[Edge93]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Edge93 wrote:

I would call it specific vs. general. Unconscious generally makes you crit fail reflex. This is the blanket effect it applies to whoever.

Improved Evasion causes you specifically to turn crit fails into fails.

So fail in the end.

Improved Evasion letting you mitigate AoE even in your sleep sounds metal as frick. XD

I feel like "wake up as you start to take damage, then roll out of the way of the worst of it" is no weirder than however evasion (or crit success on AoE) is supposed to work in the first place.

Agreed, but if you've just been Greater Constricted or something then this is even more impressive because you're still out cold. XD

[Helmic]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Edge93 wrote:

I would call it specific vs. general. Unconscious generally makes you crit fail reflex. This is the blanket effect it applies to whoever.

Improved Evasion causes you specifically to turn crit fails into fails.

So fail in the end.

Improved Evasion letting you mitigate AoE even in your sleep sounds metal as frick. XD

I feel like "wake up as you start to take damage, then roll out of the way of the worst of it" is no weirder than however evasion (or crit success on AoE) is supposed to work in the first place.

It still does feel weirder. Improved Evasion makes sense - rogues just are too slippery to ever be hit dead on, and when dodging AoE's they're always rolling out of the worst of it.

If you can't move at all, like when you're unconscious or restricted, it would make sense that you should critically fail even if you have Improved Evasion. It starts requiring some mental gymnastics just to visualize what's going on, which isn't comparable to something explicitly supernatural like Cat Fall allowing a Legendary Acrobat to ignore fall damage.

[Edge93]

Helmic wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Edge93 wrote:

I would call it specific vs. general. Unconscious generally makes you crit fail reflex. This is the blanket effect it applies to whoever.

Improved Evasion causes you specifically to turn crit fails into fails.

So fail in the end.

Improved Evasion letting you mitigate AoE even in your sleep sounds metal as frick. XD

I feel like "wake up as you start to take damage, then roll out of the way of the worst of it" is no weirder than however evasion (or crit success on AoE) is supposed to work in the first place.

It still does feel weirder. Improved Evasion makes sense - rogues just are too slippery to ever be hit dead on, and when dodging AoE's they're always rolling out of the worst of it.

If you can't move at all, like when you're unconscious or restricted, it would make sense that you should critically fail even if you have Improved Evasion. It starts requiring some mental gymnastics just to visualize what's going on, which isn't comparable to something explicitly supernatural like Cat Fall allowing a Legendary Acrobat to ignore fall damage.

I mean, FWIW ignoring fall damage doesn't feel much more supernatural to me than coming out unscathed from an explosion detonating literally in your face. I feel like a roughly equal number of normal humans survive those two things. XD