Hopefully someone who has more system mastery and experience can tell me whether this is worth it. I'm playing a dex-based (int based, really, but I can't hit bad guys with my mind) investigator who's going twf. I see this dip as being very useful to up his damage in return for delays in investigator class features.
Pros of 3 levels of Unchained Rogue:
- 2d6 sneak attack
- dex to attack and damage (this is the big one, weapon finesse is easy but dex to damage is either expensive or narrowly limited depending on which way you go about it.)
- 1 rogue talent
Cons:
- everything delayed: extracts, inspiration, studied combat/strike, etc.
Is there anything I'm missing? None of the guides I've read mention this dip as anything noteworthy but it seems pretty good to become more useful in combat.
Thoughts?
Only worth it if the Agile weapon enhancement is unavailable. Otherwise, a single level dip for the weapon finesse and sneak attack would be fine (accomplished sneak attacker feat for another 1d6). If you take the 3 level dip, it might be better to go 4 levels to get the dehibilitating strike debuffs and a 2nd Rogue Talent. -2 ac for the target (for everyone) and -4 ac for the target (for you) will go a LONG way to help you hit.
I think you will miss the levels. I took the one level dip into swashbuckler and every so often miss it. But honestly that 1 level practically makes the character :)
I agree with deathless, if you go the 3 you might as well go the 4th. But then you are pushing back the 5th level quick study, the +2 hit and damage and waiting for alchemical allocation. Also while I wanted to go twf.. the class is kinda based on you having a hand free to down your extracts. You will find yourself either keeping the weapon in the sheath for a couple rounds or having to drop it.
I decided to go with 1 level of inspired blade swashbuckler. I guess there's a reason the swashigator is a thing and the rogigator isn't lol.
Thanks everyone
Not necessarily a bad thing, just make it your own. I went with a 13 str for power attack. I did half elf for the +1 inspiration every 4 levels and skill focus umd. I've had a lot of fun currently with a 7 cha and a 12 diplomacy..I play him as a swashbuckler that relies on his gadgets...get a wand of detect magic asap. People look at me weird but he has been a pretty solid character. Definitely look up alchemical allocation... honestly one of the coolest abilities
I would agree that 1 level of Swashbuckler is a better choice than 3 levels of Rogue when you're just comparing the Dex to Damage options. One of the key factors for this is that you want Studied Combat/Studied Strike as early as possibly convenient. I ended up being 2 levels behind because of PFS shenanigans, and it was certainly painful.
I ended up dipping 1 level Swashbucker and 1 level Alchemist because I am currently playing a Generalist in PFS and I spend a lot on Alchemical Items. Because Master Alchemy is locked behind Alchemist or Rogue with the Poisoner Archetype (thank you outdated PFS rules), I had to 1 level dip to be any good with higher level Alchemical items.
That being said, you are free to play however you wish in Pathfinder. You're trading effectively 1d6 of Studied Strike damage and 1 point of Attack/Damage for 2d6 Sneak Attack and 1 Rogue Talent. You also get Dex to damage later than Swashtigator.
Slowing spell progression is the most painful part to me.
Curious since I try to keep to a generalist, what is master alchemy? cant seem to find it.
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I would agree that 1 level of Swashbuckler is a better choice than 3 levels of Rogue when you're just comparing the Dex to Damage options. One of the key factors for this is that you want Studied Combat/Studied Strike as early as possibly convenient. I ended up being 2 levels behind because of PFS shenanigans, and it was certainly painful.
I ended up dipping 1 level Swashbucker and 1 level Alchemist because I am currently playing a Generalist in PFS and I spend a lot on Alchemical Items. Because Master Alchemy is locked behind Alchemist or Rogue with the Poisoner Archetype (thank you outdated PFS rules), I had to 1 level dip to be any good with higher level Alchemical items.
That being said, you are free to play however you wish in Pathfinder. You're trading effectively 1d6 of Studied Strike damage and 1 point of Attack/Damage for 2d6 Sneak Attack and 1 Rogue Talent. You also get Dex to damage later than Swashtigator.
I also went Swashbuckler 1, but there is a definite advantage to a URogue 3 build: The static damage bonus of Studied Combat works best when you get as many attacks as possible, and URogue 3 is the pretty much the only way (outside of weapon enchants) to get 'dex to damage' while two-weapon fighting (or even adding a 'Tailblade, Ratfolk' into the mix).
That being said, it's just too big of a dip for my taste..
@Melkiador: Agreed, the biggest pain with any dip I've experienced with Investigator was the level behind spell progression. I've only just received Level 2 "spells" at 6th level, and I felt the power boost it gave when I finally was able to use them (Full Pockets anyone? Alchemical Allocation is also extremely strong.)
@Ekibus: My apologies, I wrote the wrong name. The feat is Master Alchemist (LINK!) and its almost essential if you want to craft Alchemical items that cost more than 100gp with the crafting rules. Not required if you stick with lower-end cost items, but stuff like Akrotus's Flame or Slime Grenades are almost required if you want to keep reasonable damage.
@Taja the Barbarian: That is certainly a valid argument to be had. If you are going Investigator and want to two-handed weapon fighting with Dex-to-damage, URogue 3 is a good dip. I prefer the suitability that Parry/Repose gives me from the Swash dip.
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On that side note; @Lekkric18, Have you considered going Underground Chemist + Poisoner Rogue? This gives you all the nice things that Alchemists get crafting wise. What are you looking for with your Investigator/Rogue combo?
The game has already started, so the investigator part is set in stone. The dip was purely for the dex to damage while TWFing, but the character is first and foremost a skillmonkey so I wasn't too happy with such a large dip for something that wasn't a focus of the character. I can pitch in in combat with 1 level of inspired blade and fencing grace.
Now the question is whether or not to get two-handed grace and dual-wield rapiers or just use a single rapier (or even 2, but without dex-to-damage) and get butterfly's sting and feed crits to the barbarian as my contribution to damage. Two-handed grace tacks on an extra -2 to attack, for a total of -4/-4 while dual wielding rapiers (off hand with an effortless lace). That penalty hurts, and the aesthetics of wielding two rapiers just don't feel right for my character. Plus, I kind of like the idea of poking at monsters to get their attention so they don't notice a dwarven longhammer whistling toward the back of their heads.
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Now the question is whether or not to get two-handed grace and dual-wield rapiers or just use a single rapier (or even 2, but without dex-to-damage) and get butterfly's sting and feed crits to the barbarian as my contribution to damage. Two-handed grace tacks on an extra -2 to attack, for a total of -4/-4 while dual wielding rapiers (off hand with an effortless lace). That penalty hurts, and the aesthetics of wielding two rapiers just don't feel right for my character. Plus, I kind of like the idea of poking at monsters to get their attention so they don't notice a dwarven longhammer whistling toward the back of their heads.
I believe it's actually -6/-6 for dual wielding rapiers with Two-Weapon Grace: Rapiers are not light weapons, so penalties starts at -4/-4 with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat before you add the additional penalty from Two-Weapon Grace. All it all, this looks pretty ugly for a class without a full BAB...
Also of interest, Two-Weapon Grace is not PFS legal if you happen to be playing by PFS rules or guidelines...
Hm... If I am going to be honest, it seems that Unchanged Rogue makes a better main class than dip class for a Skill Monkey build if your combat choice is Two-Weapon fighting. Dip into Investigator for 2 levels (gives you Int to several skills) along with Student of Philosophy makes Charisma a complete dump stat. It would give you a good chunk of Inspiration to use on your skills.
Don't chuck your inspiration into all your rolls: if you have a 30+HD you should be save, and if you rolled less than 10 total, I wouldn't bother adding to it. I think I've only had "one" time that adding Inspiration might have altered the result with a roll lower than a 10 if I rolled a 5-6, but that is an exception rather than the rule. Using this, I often have 4-6 Inspirations remaining at the end of the day (which I normally use for Combat {*smooches my Insperation Rapier*}).
If you're going two-weapon skill monkey, I would recommend Unchained Rogue X/Investigator 2. The Swashtigator (Swashbuckler 1/Investigator X) doesn't contribute to combat too much. Rather, it just survives by blocking attacks aimed towards it and contributes with flank buddies and stabbing here and there.
The biggest problem with 2 weapons is the investigator needs a hand. I think that kinda kills it right there. I guess you could use long to med spells..but again no wands.. if you want to go int based I just don't see why you would skip out on those. Better to have just been a rogue where you don't rely as heavily on that.
I'm not saying that a swashtigator is a heavy hitter but they can do a pretty decent job. For example my level 6 character in the last adventure had to step up and save the party He had a AC 30 and his mighty rapier 1d4+12+2 precise 15-20 crit and +16 to hit..first guy attacked him..parry riposte, crit gain point back and attacked next turn to kill him. I havent put as many points in knowledge as I should have but 10+1d6+1 on all knowledge seems to be decent He mainly was using his +12 diplomacy and 15 +1d6+1 spellcraft. Just remember you dont need to spend inspiration on knowledge and spellcraft. With a 18 umd I'm pretty reliable with using any wand I find too.
On Topic: I agree with Ekibus, two handed weapon fighting pretty much turns off most strategies available for the Investigator. They really need their hands free to fiddle with magic wands or chuck down options, or throw an Alchemical vial at the opponent.
Off Topic:
I built my character as an intellectual Linguist and Diplomat. Currently have ~25 Different languages. Knowledge checks are 15+1d6 (17+1d6 if I'm allowed to read my books as a standard action), with decent social skills.
Offensive: +11 to Hit (+13 while Studied Combat) with 18 Dex and a +1 Weapon.
Defensive: 23 (+4 Armor, +4 Shield, +4 Dex, +1 Magic).
I should probably go Improved Crit with the Rapier, but I'm probably going to grab Concentrated Splash instead. Too many time I want to throw my Slime Grenades or Akrotus's Flame, but cant due to insane splash damage threatening my allies). Level 9 if I survive, most assuredly.
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Sorry to continue the off topic (although who knows maybe something will be interesting.)
My idea for the character started with the swashbuckler and developed around that...
I actually have 13 str for power attack and carrying things. I built him around a generalist idea.
Offense:+16 (+2 heroism, +2 mutagen, +2 studied, +4 dex, +2 reduce person, 4 base, +1 weapon focus, +1 weapon enchant and -2 power attack.)
Defense: 30 (Armor +5. +4 natural, +6 dex, +1 size and +4 shield)
I actually went with a keen weapon with plans to go inspiration later on for the weapon.
My knowledge is ok but I've only put 1 point in each. but disable device, perception, diplomacy and umd are ones I try to put in every level.
Wands: comprehend language, cure light, detect magic, shield and faerie fire
Potions (for alchemical allocation) barkskin, bull str, darkvision, fly and heroism. Currently have extend potion so I can double the duration.
Honestly I'm struggling as to what to take as a feat for 7th. Deific obedience for +4 to all knowledge or enhance potion so I can drink a pot with alchamical allocation..make it my level and double the duration
The swashtigator is amazing, it just takes a few levels to get him off the ground. Your to hit bonus will eventually be rivaling or better the BSF so you might be able to take the penalties and TWF rapiers (If you aren't in a PFS game, get Effortless Lace to treat one as a light weapon or get in on both and piranha strike. You are not going to out damage the BSF, but you've got a lot of other goodies than him.
Our only true martial is an UnMonk, and I easily triple his damage in a fight. Of course, I can't keep up with the Shocking Grasp happy Magus or the Arcanist.