Namely why are there iterative attacks whereas in any other case you only get one attack with each body part? I assume its for game balance but is there any in universe reason?
1 attack per appendage is maybe a rule for monsters... but not for humans, a monk may attack any number of times with the same fist or foot so long as he has enough BAB to make iterative attacks, and I'm not even taking the flurry into account.
Bonus question: the haste spell says a creature affected by it can make an extra attack if they do a full attack action. Am I correct in thinking if you cast it on an animal with only one natural weapon (a shark's bite, for example) it would get an iterative bite attack if all it did was attack that round?
I forgot about monks which just raise further questions i.e why can they make iterative attacks with their fist (which I would certainly classify as a natural weapon since it's their own body part) but apparently nothing else can.
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I think the answer to most of this is . . . legacy. Back in Basic/Expert D&D and AD&D 1st Edition, monsters got 1 attack per round for each body part capable of making an attack(*), and player characters got 1 attack per round with their 1 weapon. Then AD&D 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana introduced slowly scaling multiple attacks per round for martial classes, but didn't change anything for monsters. Not sure what happened to this in D&D 2nd Edition, but D&D 3rd Edition organized the multiple attacks per round for martial characters into iterative attacks, while still not doing much for monsters except to classify some types of attacks as secondary attacks that have a penalty for most monsters (however, often more than made up for the fact that most monsters DIDN'T have a Strength score before 3rd Edition(**), and 3rd Edition introduced a Strength score for most monsters(***), with often hefty bonuses accruing as a result.
(*)With rare exceptions for a few monsters such as Quicklings that were permanently Hasted in all but name.
(**)Giants (including Ogres) and Vampires come to mind as exceptions in AD&D 1st Edition, that actually DID have Strength scores or some equivalent.
(***)Dexterity with Weapon Finesse or the equivalent for most of the remainder (Incorporeal).
Uh? Actually, Fighters getting 3 attacks per 2 rounds at lvl7 and 2 attacks per round from lvl 13 & up date back to the first PHB, UA expanded on that with the weapon specialisation rules. ,
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You also have to consider that a character with multiple natural attacks can use them all at full BAB unless they're secondary attacks or the character is using a manufactured weapon as well.
For example, one of my characters is a kitsune Feral Champion Warpriest with a level of Adaptive Shifter. That's a Bite attack from his race, 2 Claws from Warpriest, and Tail Slap from Shifter. All at level 2, with only Tail Slap getting a penalty.
Now imagine that kitsune then takes 7 more levels in Shifter, a full BAB class, for a total BAB of 8. If he could use iterative attacks like someone using a sword, he'd have 8 attacks a round.
Am I correct in thinking if you cast it on an animal with only one natural weapon (a shark's bite, for example) it would get an iterative bite attack if all it did was attack that round?
There is no such thing as an iterative natural attack. A hastened shark can attack twice with its bite by using the full-attack action.
There are some things that behave similar to iterative attacks (the Multiattack ability of animal companions and eidolons, and Shifter's Fury*), but those aren't absed on BAB, and thus a seperate thing.
*) Shifter's Fury calls them iterative attacks, but they aren't actually, as the ability is based on class level, while iterative attacks are based on BAB.
why can [monks] make iterative attacks with their fist (...) but apparently nothing else can.
Everyone who can make unarmed strikes can do that.
You also have to consider that a character with multiple natural attacks can use them all at full BAB unless they're secondary attacks or the character is using a manufactured weapon as well.
For example, one of my characters is a kitsune Feral Champion Warpriest with a level of Adaptive Shifter. That's a Bite attack from his race, 2 Claws from Warpriest, and Tail Slap from Shifter. All at level 2, with only Tail Slap getting a penalty.
Now imagine that kitsune then takes 7 more levels in Shifter, a full BAB class, for a total BAB of 8. If he could use iterative attacks like someone using a sword, he'd have 8 attacks a round.
Wait, you mean he'd get iterative attacks with every appendage? Not just with his favored attack (I assume bite or one extra claw attack)... you got some text to back that up, it's not what it looked to me.
Its worth noting that a Shark with 3 Intelligence who has taken the Improved Unarmed Strike feat may make iterative attacks with the unarmed strikes but not with his bite.
So if the shark had 6+ BAB it could make 2 punches but not 2 bites.
Shark with 3 Intelligence who has taken the Improved Unarmed Strike feat may make iterative attacks with the unarmed strikes but not with his bite.
Improved Unarmed strike has nothing to do with iterative attacks. It changes the lethality and provocation of the attacks, but doesn't change their frequency.
Shark with 3 Intelligence who has taken the Improved Unarmed Strike feat may make iterative attacks with the unarmed strikes but not with his bite.Improved Unarmed strike has nothing to do with iterative attacks. It changes the lethality and provocation of the attacks, but doesn't change their frequency.
That's nitpicking but yes. unarmed strikes are always considered to be a light weapons that are not a natural weapons. The feat however, makes it practical to make use of such attacks since you no longer provoke and can deal lethal damage.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
It also means that like all other "manufactured weapons" you get multiple attacks for having a high BAB. You can make attacks with natural weapons outside of this but they get treated as secondary attacks. You can however, take the feat multi-attack to reduce the penalty from -5 to -2.
There is no such thing as an iterative natural attack.
What about the giant mantis shrimp? https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/shrimp-giant-mant is/
granted I think it's the only example
There's always an exception. In this case, some game designer decided to be clever (and probably created a host of potential problems in doing so) instead of just saying that the mantis shrimp gets an extra attack with one claw.
Shark with 3 Intelligence who has taken the Improved Unarmed Strike feat may make iterative attacks with the unarmed strikes but not with his bite.Improved Unarmed strike has nothing to do with iterative attacks. It changes the lethality and provocation of the attacks, but doesn't change their frequency.
That is True, allow me to clarify my point.
A Shark with 3 Int that chooses to perform an Unarmed Strike instead of a Bite may make iterative attacks with those unarmed strikes by having a high BAB. It, however, may not choose to perform iterative bite attacks.
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Shark with 3 Intelligence who has taken the Improved Unarmed Strike feat may make iterative attacks with the unarmed strikes but not with his bite.Improved Unarmed strike has nothing to do with iterative attacks. It changes the lethality and provocation of the attacks, but doesn't change their frequency.That is True, allow me to clarify my point.
A Shark with 3 Int that chooses to perform an Unarmed Strike instead of a Bite may make iterative attacks with those unarmed strikes by having a high BAB. It, however, may not choose to perform iterative bite attacks.
Exception #2 (more of a corner case, IMO): A shark with 3+ Int and monk levels*, can take the Feral Combat Training feat to use their bite instead of their unarmed strike with flurry of blows.
*- possibly after being the target of an awaken spell effect
What would a shark's unarmed strike even be? Swatting something with it's tail?
What would a shark's unarmed strike even be? Swatting something with it's tail?
That's a Tail Slap.
As far as the original query goes...
Imagine a skilled swordsman or axeman slashing right-to-left, then left-to-right. Fast and deadly. Now imagine doing that with natural attacks. Nope.
Uh? Actually, Fighters getting 3 attacks per 2 rounds at lvl7 and 2 attacks per round from lvl 13 & up date back to the first PHB, UA expanded on that with the weapon specialisation rules. ,
Oops, you're right -- I forgot to look in the separate table for this -- my bad. 1st Edition AD&D organization -- got to love it. Or something. Also, Cleave/Great Cleave wasn't a pair of feats -- it was just something that you did against <1 HD creatures. Also, Monks got multiple attacks, and actually listed in the Monk class table, but since 1st Edition AD&D Monks would die if you sneezed while looking at them cross-eyed, I feel semi-justified in forgetting to bring them up.
:) yeah, AD&D was not particularly well organized, I did have some trouble finding that table myself as I was preparing that post... and the poor monks would have deserved better hit dice.
What would a shark's unarmed strike even be? Swatting something with it's tail?
IRL sharks are know to "bump and bite" prey.
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As far as the original query goes...
Imagine a skilled swordsman or axeman slashing right-to-left, then left-to-right. Fast and deadly. Now imagine doing that with natural attacks. Nope.
You can do the same thing with Claws though.
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You can do the same thing with Claws though.As far as the original query goes...
Imagine a skilled swordsman or axeman slashing right-to-left, then left-to-right. Fast and deadly. Now imagine doing that with natural attacks. Nope.
Yeah, not the best example, especially since there are manufactured weapons that essentially just augment your fist (e.g., gauntlet, cestus) and others that duplicate natural weapons (e.g., tekko-kagi), and these weapons obey all of the manufactured weapons rules, including iterative attacks. (For that matter, unarmed strike itself uses iterative attacks.)
You can do the same thing with Claws though.As far as the original query goes...
Imagine a skilled swordsman or axeman slashing right-to-left, then left-to-right. Fast and deadly. Now imagine doing that with natural attacks. Nope.
Not really. A weapon that extends a from your hand has serious follow-through momentum that sets up the next swing in a graceful arc; your wrist can reverse to a backhand stroke easily. In skilled hands, swinging back and forth is one fluid motion. Claws just don't work that way, because they have no additional leverage and can't pivot on the wrist. Actually picture a tiger trying to do back-and-forth weapon strokes with claws; it looks ridiculous for a reason.
But yeah, it's not a perfect example; claw-weapons should work like claws, bites should work differently than claws and manufactures weapons, etc, etc. But in general, head or limb attacks are simply more awkward than attacks with a foot or two of steel extending from a flexible wrist.
Bonus question: the haste spell says a creature affected by it can make an extra attack if they do a full attack action. Am I correct in thinking if you cast it on an animal with only one natural weapon (a shark's bite, for example) it would get an iterative bite attack if all it did was attack that round?
The second attack would be at full BAB