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Hypothetically, let's say you're an oracle. At 11th level, you take the Improved Eldritch Heritage feat for the 3rd level Aberrant bloodline ability Long Limbs. Or let's say you're an Aberrant Sorcerer 4/Cleric 3. Would your reach increase when it comes to targeting allies with beneficial touch spells (especially, but not limited to, cure spells)?
yup
A totally RAW answer looks like to me like no. The bloodline power specifies "melee touch attack." I would say that is needlessly narrow however.
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A totally RAW answer looks like to me like no. The bloodline power specifies "melee touch attack." I would say that is needlessly narrow however.
Delivering a touch spell such as cure light wounds is a melee touch attack. You explicitly need to make the attack roll for offensive purposes such as hitting an undead. Typically for willing targets, it's just assumed to work.
I can't find anything to support friendly touch spells being melee touch attacks. Does casting cure light wouunds on an ally break invisibility?
As I said in my first post, I believe the position I am stating is a needlessly narrow interpretation (that I would not use), but it does appear to be strict RAW to me, for those who care.
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"The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe."
"Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area."
Invisibility would not break when casting Cure X Wounds on an ally.
Exactly, because cure X on an ally is not an attack.
Looks like we disagree, fair enough.
Huh, okay, what makes it an attack then?
I recognize that you are claiming this. I just cannot find any text to supprt your claim.
You as well.
That has got to be the most polite conclusion of a disagreement ever, and I'm reluctant to append anything to it... but...
magic missile is an example of an attack that does not require a roll; it automatically hits.
Given how touch range spells work on non-allies, I read the rules such that touching an ally is exactly the same as touching a foe only you don't need to success... you automatically succeed.
Now, for fun, ask yourself what happens if your ally is invisible. Do you still succeed automatically or do you have a 50% miss-chance (assuming you know their square)?
I try to interpret rules as written to be as consistent as possible while being fun. For, me, touches to allies have situations that require common-sense adjudication, such as when concealment is involved. Heck, the rules as written don't seem to actually say the target has to be within reach (though that might be somewhere else in the book). Anyway, as such, since there are other circumstances where treating touching allies the same as touching foes is the cleanest, easiest-to-remember approach, why not apply that logic to the most basic mode of usage (automatic success) since the rules don't explicitly speak otherwise?
I'm not trying to argue... I'm trying to convince.
It sounds as if you and I would rule the same on these issues. Let me say again that I have been stating what I believe strict RAW to be, not how I would rule or think is best.
as you do not have to pick a target while casting the spell only after the casting is done.
let look at it this way. 10 feet away an ally is fighting an undead. the caster cast cure light wounds. are you saying on the turn he uses it to hit the undead he can extend his hand but on the turn he uses it to touch his friend he can't? even though he does the same thing on both turns? how does the limbs know not to extend when you pick a different target?.
also what if you try and attack an undead caster (who rolled his spellcraft so he doesn't dodge) but it turn out it heals it? (there are many ways are to do it. spells and such to make them treat positive to heal) so will the arms not extend since eventually it would heal them and he's not dodging ?
My point, which I cannot find and have not been shown a citation to contradict is: delivering a touch range spell to a willing recipient is not, by RAW, a touch attack.
Logically should the ability the OP asked about work, probably.
well the easy way out is to just deliver it while smacking them with an unarmed attack (it will take an other turn though) since you can deliver touch spells with it and the damage is done alongside the non lethal damage which is healed at the same time.
I think I'm getting mixed answers.
After reading over everything. I think the issue is with the Aberrant Bloodline ability. It states
Long Limbs (Ex): At 3rd level, your reach increases by 5 feet whenever you are making a melee touch attack. This ability does not otherwise increase your threatened area.
The only way I can make sense of this is that your limbs can explosively and in-accurately suddenly extend and then retract. As a result, if you want to use a spell like cure light wounds at range you can do so, but you must resolve it as a melee touch attack. So, you would have to roll to hit your own ally in order to heal them. If you miss then you can still "hold the charge" and can try again next turn.
This is because the ability does not just extend your reach. You can't use it to smack an enemy with a sword. Nor would you be able to make an AoO using this ability. You also could not use it to target 6 allies with a beneficial touch spell.
I agree with Java Man that the normal touch option available to allies when they cast touch spells is not an attack.
You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
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The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.
Exactly, because cure X on an ally is not an attack.
Actually, this is incorrect.
It is an attack.It is NOT against a foe.
The latter is why it does not break invisibility.
/cevah
So, chucking splash weapons at a grid intersection next to an enemy is fair game? } : )
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targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. is the bit against splash weapons blaphers
So, chucking splash weapons at a grid intersection next to an enemy is fair game? } : )Yes you wouldn't get the direct damage from the attack though just the splash damage with is always minimum damage.
No. Look right above you - area effects that include enemies and don't specifically only affect allies are still attacks.
But you can chuck splash damage at your party without breaking invisibility... Until your party gets fed up and stops being allies.
The line you're all quoting mentions area of effect spells, not weapons.
(And no, this is not a serious line of rules inquiry.)
Instead of Eld Heritage for longer limbs, you can get Metamagic Reach Spell. It turns your Cure Spells into Close, Medium, or Long range for +1, +2, or +3 spell slot. And you can use it on every other spell you have too, not just cure spells.
Or save yourself a feat and just get a MM Rod of Reach Spell.
Instead of Eld Heritage for longer limbs, you can get Metamagic Reach Spell. It turns your Cure Spells into Close, Medium, or Long range for +1, +2, or +3 spell slot. And you can use it on every other spell you have too, not just cure spells.
Or save yourself a feat and just get a MM Rod of Reach Spell.
Well, let's say it's for role playing purposes. Let's say I'm an Oracle of the Dark Tapestry and I want all of my friends to feel His noodly appendage.
Regardless of whether something is better in concept from a mechanic view, I think the question should still be answered. And what if I don't want to use higher-level spell slots to cast spells at longer ranges? I don't mean to sound indignant, but I'm not looking for build advice. I'm looking for ways to touch my party in ways they've never been touched before... and also in ways that they'll probably never want to be touched again. Healing but at a cost. The cost being contact with an alien entity... and maybe one's dignity.
Touch Spells in Combat
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn (see FAQ below for more information.)
Long Limbs (Ex): At 3rd level, your reach increases by 5 feet whenever you are making a melee touch attack. This ability does not otherwise increase your threatened area.
The question has already been answered though. Per RAW, your Long Limbs only affect a Touch Attack, and when you touch an Ally, this is not considered a Touch Attack, but rather an automatic touch.
If you want to have long arms for touching your allies, you can carry a wand of Long Arm, or see if your GM would allow you to get Long Arm placed upon you with a Permanence spell.
Or, you can ask your GM if he would allow you to use Long Limbs to touch allies as well, but just know that it's not RAW. Personally, I'd allow it. It's not game-breaking and thematically it's very cool. It's ultimately up to your GM though.
As far as the discussion that Java Man and Dragonborn3 were having:
Invisibility
School illusion (glamer); Level alchemist 2, antipaladin 2, bard 2, inquisitor 2, magus 2, medium 2, mesmerist 2, occultist 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, spiritualist 2, summoner/unchained summoner 2; Domain trickery 2; Bloodline arcane 2; Elemental School void 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (an eyelash encased in gum arabic)EFFECT
Range personal or touch
Target you or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lbs./level
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless) or yes (harmless, object)DESCRIPTION
The creature or object touched becomes invisible. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.
Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving. The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.
Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell.
Regardless of whether you cast a Cure spell or a Harmful spell at an ally, it's still not considered an "attack" that would end the Invisibility effect. It is entirely up to the perception of the Invisible person as to who is a foe and who is not.
Sorry, I didn't realize that was the definitive answer. If that's the case, thank you all for your help.
Sorry, I didn't realize that was the definitive answer. If that's the case, thank you all for your help.
It isn't.
This looks like a case where you have 2 sides both certain there is no ambiguity to question, and a third group who see ambiguity.
So a definite "ask your GM", because we on the boards don't know which of those three groups they fall into.
Sorry, I didn't realize that was the definitive answer. If that's the case, thank you all for your help.
It stands to logical reasoning that Long Limbs "should" affect allies if they're able to affect enemies. But this is a Rules forum, so it's strict adherence to the rules or otherwise you're just making up rules that aren't there.
This could have been an oversight by the developers because they designed this for Sorcerers who almost exclusively use offensive touch attacks. Or, the developers considered the possibility of an Oracle who wanted to use Eldritch Heritage to be able to touch allies from farther away and worded it carefully to ensure this couldn't happen for a balance reason (although, I personally don't think that it's unbalanced).
Honestly, I think you should talk to your GM and show him this discussion. Just like Java Man said, there are dissenting opinions from 3 different angles.
Edit: I like LordKailas's interpretation of this.
The only way I can make sense of this is that your limbs can explosively and in-accurately suddenly extend and then retract. As a result, if you want to use a spell like cure light wounds at range you can do so, but you must resolve it as a melee touch attack. So, you would have to roll to hit your own ally in order to heal them. If you miss then you can still "hold the charge" and can try again next turn.
It reminds me of how Monkey Lunge works. And maybe that's the point of this ability. What if it was indeed written like this on purpose? You don't actually get long arms because you don't threaten the area around you (like you would if you have the Long Arm spell active), but you do get long arms able enough to make Touch Attacks from further away. Cure spells can be used offensively, like vs. undead, so it stands to reason that you should be able to use Long Limbs to make a Melee Touch Attack against your ally from 10ft away. But you'd have to roll for it obviously, it wouldn't be automatic like it is when you are trying to touch an ally from 5ft away who wants to be touched, if that makes sense?
Long limbs should just be increase reach by 5/10/15 at x/y/z levels.
I think that would be a bad idea :P Imagine the amount of hell that would unleash with Combat Reflexes, Combat Patrol, and 25ft-35ft threatened area :P
5ft reach normal
+15ft reach Long Limbs
+5-10ft Combat Patrol (depends on your BAB)
+5ft Enlarge Person