Alchemical archery?


Classes

Liberty's Edge

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Had anyone figured out a way to build an alchemical archer? Want to build an archery that shoots bombs via bow etc? Thanks


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There is no way currently.
What should occur, I think, is that Alchemist's should gain a class feat
"modify bombs" and basically it allows them to apply bombs effects to any ranged item. This would allow the creation of arrow, bolt, dart, shuriken, etc. and future proof for future stuff.
Logistically it isn't particularly off balance as it would no longer target TAC, and currently you can make the bomb fly rather far (albiet not long bow far).

Then they could just price out a cost via the pay for services rules.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zwordsman wrote:

There is no way currently.

What should occur, I think, is that Alchemist's should gain a class feat
"modify bombs" and basically it allows them to apply bombs effects to any ranged item. This would allow the creation of arrow, bolt, dart, shuriken, etc. and future proof for future stuff.
Logistically it isn't particularly off balance as it would no longer target TAC, and currently you can make the bomb fly rather far (albiet not long bow far).

Then they could just price out a cost via the pay for services rules.

That already existed, it was called Explosive Missile. Just clean the wording up for PF2e and there you go.


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I rather assume, as this is in the playtest forums, that the OP wanted to know if it existed within the playteset rule set, not within homebrew.

Currently, taking explosive missile from P1, would invalidate the concept of the playtest.

If this is not for the purposes of the playtest and is in fact for homebrew not for playtest response, then I would suggest the chemist's Alchemical Bullet from Final Fantasy D20 be used. it would work rather well with this system.

I personally do hope they allow it with any ranged thing--even if that results in said weapons taking damage. 'bomb" darts and shurikens are just plain good fun. and its honestly annoying how nothing but bows get any fun options in a fantasy game.

Dark Archive

It doesn't exist, and for the record any ability that would allow an Alchemist to add bomb damage to an arrow would be very OP in this edition since you'd be dealing nearly double the damage of a normal attack in most cases. What seems more likely is some kind of ability to add a non-empowered bomb (perhaps scaling up with a later feat) to an arrow, adding some damage and potentially a debuff while also getting longer range than bombs can normally hit. The difference between AC and TAC isn't enough to justify such a large damage boost.


Well Alchemist doesn't have any way to boost their Dex hit easily anyway.

Unless we dip into Fighter. Or Ranger.

Maybe when Gunslinger comes out we can do something with Cartridges


At my table, we've been allowing bombs to be loaded into slings as improvised ammo. The end result is an attack at -2 (for improvised gear) hitting AC and dealing sling damage plus bomb damage. The end result is a somewhat less accurate double slice that deals about the same damage, assuming you are using an empowered bomb. Given that the alchemist has a limited number of bombs, it ends up being pretty balanced.

We also allow TK projectile to fling bombs in theory, but haven't had the time to actually see it in action


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They have spellstrike ammunition on the spellcasting side of things... Shouldn't be too hard to make an alchemic equilivent.


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The Once and Future Kai wrote:
They have spellstrike ammunition on the spellcasting side of things... Shouldn't be too hard to make an alchemic equilivent.

I actually really like this idea, but it should definately be an alchemical item instead of a magic item, otherwise alchemists couldn't craft it with advanced alchemy and thus lose the point of it in the first place.

Dark Archive

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MerlinCross wrote:

Well Alchemist doesn't have any way to boost their Dex hit easily anyway.

Unless we dip into Fighter. Or Ranger.

Maybe when Gunslinger comes out we can do something with Cartridges

Starting at a 16 rather than an 18 puts you behind by -5% accuracy for 10 levels (1-4, 10-14, and 20). That's not great, but it can be made up with buffs and debuffs. The Quicksilver Mutagen more than makes up for it, though, granting between a +2 and a +5 to ranged attack rolls. I'd really appreciate the removal of the onset time completely though, as it basically kills the build without Fast Onset (and even then penalizes you by taking effect a full 2 turns after you take it).


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The damage for quicksilver mutagens stack up pretty harsh fairly fast, though, especially given that you can't heal it off, and it doesn't stack with potency runes that your alchemist likely has anyways so they have a backup weapon when the bombs run out.

In keeping with Kai's proposition, a property rune allowing crossbows and slings to load bombs as ammo for weapon damage plus bomb damage vs ac, or bomb damage plus runes vs TAC could also be a nice, easy to implement piece of gear for alchemists.


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I wonder if there is a possible problem with slings, alchemical bombs, advanced alchemy and potency runes.

If we just treat the sling as a delivery method, and don't add the sling's base damage (which I don't think we should, a sling bullet and a alchemical bomb are very different physically - bomb is designed to break on impact which would make the impact damage fairly negligible) and the sling has a potency rune on it, then the potency rune maybe would apply its damage to the alchemical bomb. At which point does the alchemist Empower Bomb multiply all that (say (1d8 alchemical fire, +2d8 for potency rune) x3 for 9th level alchemist is 9d6 damage, with either 3 of that being splash to secondaries.

I love the idea for using slings/ halfling staff slings for delivering bombs, since with expert weapons potency runes the bonus helps offset the problem alchemists might have hitting at higher level. The load action means alchemist won't be slinging as many bombs, but can do it further. I also don't think alchemists should take a improvised weapon penalty for doing this, the bombs containers could easily have been made rounded for just this use. Or, there could be a general, skill (craft alchemy? - bombs made by the alchemist are designed for use with slings), or class feat to allow the user to do it without the improvised weapon penalty.

I am not a fan of seeing alchemist use bombs on arrows. Especially bombs/ bomb arrows made with Advanced/Quick alchemy. This just seems a step too far, allowing for 1 action firing, already existing feat interactions, and base weapon damage being added in. Although in this case I suppose some of that would be offset by having to make attacks against AC instead of touch AC (and lets not get into the situation of having to check against both to try to get the bomb effects in even if the arrow damage "misses").

If alchemist bombs, especially the Advanced/Quick ones were able to be fashioned into arrow form, I would see alchemist being a popular multiclass option.


LuniasM wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Well Alchemist doesn't have any way to boost their Dex hit easily anyway.

Unless we dip into Fighter. Or Ranger.

Maybe when Gunslinger comes out we can do something with Cartridges

Starting at a 16 rather than an 18 puts you behind by -5% accuracy for 10 levels (1-4, 10-14, and 20). That's not great, but it can be made up with buffs and debuffs. The Quicksilver Mutagen more than makes up for it, though, granting between a +2 and a +5 to ranged attack rolls. I'd really appreciate the removal of the onset time completely though, as it basically kills the build without Fast Onset (and even then penalizes you by taking effect a full 2 turns after you take it).

Using a Long bow might put you behind if you're in Volley Range. And the issue isn't that we're behind due to stats it's that we're behind because.... we really don't have a way to boost our hit. Fighters get Proficiency faster and have Incredible Aim and Point Blank Shot. Rangers can put more shots downrange with Hunt going and also have an Aim bonus along with Proficiency.

Alchemists.., well were'going to need a feat to use a bow and that only goes to Trained. And then we need to take time/Resonance to make something to give us a good enough boost. And then make sure we use it before a fight or eat into our action mid fight to take/make it. And then wait for it to kick in if we don't have Fast Onset(Not to mention it poisons us basically and might cost Resonance to take depending on how we made it)

OR

Fighter + Magic item.

Cause you know; Quicksilver is an Item Buff. So it doesn't stack with Other Item buffs. Now I did a quick look and I couldn't find any "Ranged" attack bonuses. But if that sees print the gap widens.


Joey Cote wrote:
stuff

If you clock someone on the head with a full bottle of beer, you can actually very easily cause harm from the impact, even if the bottle breaks.

The main reason I advocated dealing bullet plus bomb damage is twofold: it keeps the damage in line with, say, double slice, and it makes dealing with how potency runes modify bombs way easier. Technically, acid flasks do not deal base damage, only splash and ongoing, and while it might seem like common sense to just add on some d4s on impact, it would require some weird wording to interact with ongoing damage. If you have it deal weapon plus bomb damage, the matter becomes easy: potency applies to the weapon, and count the bomb and weapon as one attack for weakness/resistance

Irl, there actually is a crossbow designed to fire rocks and bullets, called a prodd, which where my claim for bomb launching crossbows comes from. I'd think it would be perfectly fair to change the damage to bludgeon to avoid stacking a poison on top of the bomb, though.

You and I both seem to agree though that regular arrow, with a reload of 0, would be op. For what it's worth, I think that alchemical rounds would be a great shtick for crossbows and slings to even the field with bow in the hands of an alchemist (specialist or dabbler)


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I prefer having this as a class feat such as Explosive Missile from PF1, modeled after Channel Smite and other similar 2-action attack feats, instead of as a form of ammunition itself. Reason being that making it ammunition itself leads to the issue of the alchemist having to either multiclass or take a general feat for bows, instead of playing to the alchemist's base proficiencies, and greatly overtuning damage for the class as roughly any attack with this ammunition would deal double the damage of another weapon user (late game of 12d8+splash, without property runes! This should not be a reliable single action attack!).

I suggest the following:

Alchemist Class Feat 4
Name - Explosive Missile
Prerequisites - either Quick Bomber or Quick Alchemy
Action time - 2 Actions
Cost - 1 ammunition, 1 alchemical bomb
Description - You draw and load an alchemical bomb and a piece of ammunition onto a ranged weapon with reload 1 or lower, and fire the weapon. On a success, the attack deals both the regular damage of the weapon in addition to the damage and properties of the bomb. On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack and creatures within 5 feet of the target are subjected to the bomb's splash damage.

One action to load the bomb and ammo, one to fire, simple. Makes light and hand crossbows that much better for the alchemist, without breaking the system by giving alchemists reliable access to a pseudo-spellstrike ammunition that they can shoot off multiple times a round.

Dark Archive

MerlinCross wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Well Alchemist doesn't have any way to boost their Dex hit easily anyway.

Unless we dip into Fighter. Or Ranger.

Maybe when Gunslinger comes out we can do something with Cartridges

Starting at a 16 rather than an 18 puts you behind by -5% accuracy for 10 levels (1-4, 10-14, and 20). That's not great, but it can be made up with buffs and debuffs. The Quicksilver Mutagen more than makes up for it, though, granting between a +2 and a +5 to ranged attack rolls. I'd really appreciate the removal of the onset time completely though, as it basically kills the build without Fast Onset (and even then penalizes you by taking effect a full 2 turns after you take it).

Using a Long bow might put you behind if you're in Volley Range. And the issue isn't that we're behind due to stats it's that we're behind because.... we really don't have a way to boost our hit. Fighters get Proficiency faster and have Incredible Aim and Point Blank Shot. Rangers can put more shots downrange with Hunt going and also have an Aim bonus along with Proficiency.

Didn't remember about the Mutagen being an Item bonus, which stinks. It'll still grant a +1 bonus at all levels except 20, which does still make up for the stat deficiency (and more at some levels). That just makes the onset time more annoying.


SnarkyChymist wrote:

I prefer having this as a class feat such as Explosive Missile from PF1, modeled after Channel Smite and other similar 2-action attack feats, instead of as a form of ammunition itself. Reason being that making it ammunition itself leads to the issue of the alchemist having to either multiclass or take a general feat for bows, instead of playing to the alchemist's base proficiencies, and greatly overtuning damage for the class as roughly any attack with this ammunition would deal double the damage of another weapon user (late game of 12d8+splash, without property runes! This should not be a reliable single action attack!).

I suggest the following:

Alchemist Class Feat 4
Name - Explosive Missile
Prerequisites - either Quick Bomber or Quick Alchemy
Action time - 2 Actions
Cost - 1 ammunition, 1 alchemical bomb
Description - You draw and load an alchemical bomb and a piece of ammunition onto a ranged weapon with reload 1 or lower, and fire the weapon. On a success, the attack deals both the regular damage of the weapon in addition to the damage and properties of the bomb. On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack and creatures within 5 feet of the target are subjected to the bomb's splash damage.

One action to load the bomb and ammo, one to fire, simple. Makes light and hand crossbows that much better for the alchemist, without breaking the system by giving alchemists reliable access to a pseudo-spellstrike ammunition that they can shoot off multiple times a round.

I'll admit, I was initially leary on having this combat style be a feat due to how feat starved dedicated bombers are, but considering you proposal only costs a normal alchemist 2 feats (explosive missile and precise bomb) to be good at alchemical archery, that actually seems really doable. More explosively minded alchemists taking debilitating bomb, calculated splash, and expanded splash would be paying more, but getting a truly devastating attack out of it. You've got me sold


I would probably not want those prereqs..
Fact is, my alchemist probably would adore the explossive missle-and woudl actually use them. But. would rarely, take quick bomber. Quick alchemy is fine since its a class thing and or could be taken via the multiclass with more feats.

but I'd rather it just not have a prereq except for Alchemist level.

Alchemists really just need Quick Draw--Except, instead of interaction+strike. it should be restricted to Alchemical Items only, and a reaction action. This would limit how often they could do it in a round yes. But. It would allow use of alchemical items in more meaningful ways--as it stands none of them are truly worth the 2 actions in combat to draw one-nor do you really ever have enough bombs to want to draw 2 and throw 2 in a round. Plus.. that doesnt' remotely help the support items.
Whatever it was, would really need to be allowed to work with Elixir, tinderwigs, silversheen, sunrods and the like. So the Quick Draw on rogues/rangers simply dont' work.
I do think making it alch items only, and as a reaction would be useful. Alchemists have basically no use for reactions unless they have a shield either or multiclass.


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Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Joey Cote wrote:
stuff

If you clock someone on the head with a full bottle of beer, you can actually very easily cause harm from the impact, even if the bottle breaks.

The main reason I advocated dealing bullet plus bomb damage is twofold: it keeps the damage in line with, say, double slice, and it makes dealing with how potency runes modify bombs way easier. Technically, acid flasks do not deal base damage, only splash and ongoing, and while it might seem like common sense to just add on some d4s on impact, it would require some weird wording to interact with ongoing damage. If you have it deal weapon plus bomb damage, the matter becomes easy: potency applies to the weapon, and count the bomb and weapon as one attack for weakness/resistance

Irl, there actually is a crossbow designed to fire rocks and bullets, called a prodd, which where my claim for bomb launching crossbows comes from. I'd think it would be perfectly fair to change the damage to bludgeon to avoid stacking a poison on top of the bomb, though.

You and I both seem to agree though that regular arrow, with a reload of 0, would be op. For what it's worth, I think that alchemical rounds would be a great shtick for crossbows and slings to even the field with bow in the hands of an alchemist (specialist or dabbler)

Oh, I agree that getting hit by an alchemical bomb would hurt, and I suppose leaving the sling damage in isn't unreasonable. And leaving in the sling damage would be an easy work around for not stacking the potency rune with the mulitplier for empower bomb.

Injury based poisons, I don't really mind the idea of being able to put those on arrows or bolts with alchemist bombs attached. After all, they will work on ammo fired from weapons with property runes giving elemental effects.

I did miss on my first read through that injury poisons only works with edged/piercing weapons. But unless we get something to raise the DC of crafted poisons to something like spell DC, I think their effect on combat is going to be fairly low. Although, since there isn't any rule I see for how long they last once applied to a weapon, I suppose you could make a bunch of your highest level poisons with advanced alchemy and apply them to arrows/bolts at the start of the day to have the highest DC. Although I think that most monsters are going to have about a 50% chance to resist poisons made by an alchemist of the same level, not including potent poisoner feat.

Bows using arrows with regular alchemical bombs attached doesn't seem like a problem to me. Having to spend roughly 3gp per shot(and maybe increasing the bulk of 10 arrows to 1) for what is going to 3 or 4 points of extra damage a shot is pretty safe. Its only with advanced/quick alchemy that I think we end up with problems. And yes, crossbows would be as safe as slings for not breaking game balance, and I don't even think you need to have the bolts blunted, or the damage reduced. But if you allow it on bolts, people are going to say it should be usable on arrows.


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SnarkyChymist wrote:

I prefer having this as a class feat such as Explosive Missile from PF1, modeled after Channel Smite and other similar 2-action attack feats, instead of as a form of ammunition itself. Reason being that making it ammunition itself leads to the issue of the alchemist having to either multiclass or take a general feat for bows, instead of playing to the alchemist's base proficiencies, and greatly overtuning damage for the class as roughly any attack with this ammunition would deal double the damage of another weapon user (late game of 12d8+splash, without property runes! This should not be a reliable single action attack!).

I suggest the following:

Alchemist Class Feat 4
Name - Explosive Missile
Prerequisites - either Quick Bomber or Quick Alchemy
Action time - 2 Actions
Cost - 1 ammunition, 1 alchemical bomb
Description - You draw and load an alchemical bomb and a piece of ammunition onto a ranged weapon with reload 1 or lower, and fire the weapon. On a success, the attack deals both the regular damage of the weapon in addition to the damage and properties of the bomb. On a failure (but not a critical failure), the target of the attack and creatures within 5 feet of the target are subjected to the bomb's splash damage.

One action to load the bomb and ammo, one to fire, simple. Makes light and hand crossbows that much better for the alchemist, without breaking the system by giving alchemists reliable access to a pseudo-spellstrike ammunition that they can shoot off multiple times a round.

This seems completely reasonable. Even allows for things like silver ammo.


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LuniasM wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
MerlinCross wrote:

Well Alchemist doesn't have any way to boost their Dex hit easily anyway.

Unless we dip into Fighter. Or Ranger.

Maybe when Gunslinger comes out we can do something with Cartridges

Starting at a 16 rather than an 18 puts you behind by -5% accuracy for 10 levels (1-4, 10-14, and 20). That's not great, but it can be made up with buffs and debuffs. The Quicksilver Mutagen more than makes up for it, though, granting between a +2 and a +5 to ranged attack rolls. I'd really appreciate the removal of the onset time completely though, as it basically kills the build without Fast Onset (and even then penalizes you by taking effect a full 2 turns after you take it).

Using a Long bow might put you behind if you're in Volley Range. And the issue isn't that we're behind due to stats it's that we're behind because.... we really don't have a way to boost our hit. Fighters get Proficiency faster and have Incredible Aim and Point Blank Shot. Rangers can put more shots downrange with Hunt going and also have an Aim bonus along with Proficiency.

Didn't remember about the Mutagen being an Item bonus, which stinks. It'll still grant a +1 bonus at all levels except 20, which does still make up for the stat deficiency (and more at some levels). That just makes the onset time more annoying.

I mean really that's one of the sticker points I have about Alchemist in general. Well I have a LOT of points about Alchemist but this is one I hope they bloody fix.

Swap the Bonuses Alchemical items give to Alchemical Bonus. Because what's the point if our effects don't work on someone that has a magic item?

This is off topic but another issue about Quicksilver is the HP damage you take. No even HP damage, but HP Drain. You can't heal the damage until Quick Silver wares off. Lessor can probably kill you off with it's Minute lasting effect(Good for one fight, need to be healed after each fight), The longer lasting ones don't make you take as much damage but you're still cutting your HP by 20 to 40 depending on the level.

Sure we'd be playing ranged that's still a decent chunk that might be going.

Okay assuming level the alchemist is level 9 for Quicksilver, normal, and just make them human. That'd be ... 80HP? 9 levels of 8+ 8 HP for human? Before getting into Con.

We'd be kicked down to 60 each time we use it, and that's if we get healed each time it wears off.

I'm sorry, I know this is alchemical archery ideas but I keep looking at Alchemist and going "It's just easier to go Fighter or Ranger." I'm not even thinking of "This is the only way" it just seems easier to go Ranged with them and not have to worry about Quicksilver and other issues of Alchemist.

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