| darktemplar45 |
So the when I first saw the animal totem options and how they give you unarmed attacks that have similar damage die to other types weapons, I was genuinely excited to try it out. I'm not exactly an expert in barbarians, but I really like this concept of letting your animal instinct take over and gaining primal features that are as devastating as some of the other options. Problem is, the Animal Totem ISN'T devastating at all...
So here's some questions I have about the class features to see if there's anything I missed. So please correct me if I misread something. I'm also going to include a few options on how I'd fix them if I were a GMnig this. As well as talk about the Animal Totem's Class feats. I know you don't HAVE to pick them but I still wanted to address some issues I've noticed.
I know I might sound like I'm really ripping into this, but i genuinely excited to play this type of character. And I just feel strongly that the way Paizo has these features laid out isn't very functional and this is my feedback on the Playtest. So I apologize if it comes off as really angry dissatisfaction, cause that's not my intention with this post.
1) The animal Totem Damages Dice seem on par with other weapons, makes sense. But you can't upgrade or make them magical items like other weapons? Wouldn't that make them under powered at higher levels?
So while some of the animal options might seem interesting at first glance when you take a good look at it, there's very little variety. Most of the options give some kind of a bite attack, with 1d10 damage, this is comparable to many two-handed weapons on the weapons table. But you don't have any way to add damage at later levels, because the damage doesn't scale as your level or anything.
So when the party reaches level 6ish, the rest of the party will have enough gold to upgrade their gear and +1 weapons (unless they found something along the way during an adventure). But the Animal Totem Barbarian can't use weapons (it's their Anathema); meaning his damage will remain at 1d10 while most other classes might be doing 2d6, 2d8, or even up to 2d12 with +1 weapons. And that's not even accounting for magic properties! And the problems don't stop there! You only get the Totems Unarmed attacks when your raging, so if you're not raging you still can't use weapons! You have ZERO ranged attacks/options! And as someone that likes to make sure all my characters have some kind of ranged attack this is just infuriating...
My solution to this would be to make something kinda like a holy symbol. I would say you could use the Totem itself but then it would conflict with the other Non-Animal Totem barbarians. So Something like a Charm, and give it a similar silver price as a two-handed weapon. With the ability to upgrade it's quality and fit Potency and Property Runes like any other weapons. This whay when you Rage, your animal features manifest and gain the potency and properties you've inserted into your Charm. You could even have multiple Charms for multiple animals, giving you access to maybe certain abilities like Pounce, Bear Hug and such that the Animal Companions have.
By the way I know there's at least one other Post that points out that the Animal Companion's Abilities would make a great addition to the Animal Totems. so I'm not going into depth here.
2) Aside form Damage Dice and Damage Types, whats the major difference between choosing different animals as your Totem?
Frankly not a lot as far as I can tell... The Animal Totem Class Feats are clearly designed to be a "one-size-fits-all" formula. The Animal Skin Feat bolsters your AC and and Dex cap, but it's the same bonus regardless of your animal Totem. And you can't be wearing any armor (save for some select few magical items), which means you better have a high DEX, too bad all the animals available don't come with the Finesse property... not even the some that make sense like the Cat. EDIT: Apparently "Unarmed Strikes", come with the Finesse Property. not sure if that applys to the unarmed strikes from the Animal Totem.
Animal Rage seems like it could have it's uses, but remember it's when your RAGING. You're technically not intended to be used for the utility and movement outside of combat, although there's nothing stopping you from doing that...
And lastly the only other Animal Totem Specific Feat is Predators Pounce. Which, like Animal Skin, has the same affect regardless of your chosen Animal Totem. (more on that later)
3) Can you shift into different forms? like use Bear for combat but Frog if you're in a watery/swampy area?
The short answer is technically no. No idea why this cant be a thing. This turns the Barbarian into a raging Shifter or Hunter from PF First Edition, but to be fair isn't that the approach they're going for with this Totem? Technically there's nothing I could find that says you can't shift into different forms, which is could be really helpful with the 8th level Animal Rage feat.
But the way it's worded, it seems like you carry one Totem of a specific animal you are spiritually connected to. Going back to what I said about Charms, if you could treat them like rare magical items the barbarian has to collect. Maybe you start out with a Cat Totem Charm cause your clan lived in the Savannah. But when you get to the mountains you want something with a climb speed, go find a Tribe that worships Snakes, or Apes. (or maybe homerule a Ram?, why isn't a Ram a thing?) But there are so many other ways to accomplish the same thing it wouldn't be worth it.
Speaking of Animal Totem Feats, they are, shall we say, lack luster.
The fact that the Animal Skin feat means you can't wear armor is SUPPOSED to further emphasize CON and DEX in your character, but without any "Finesse" property Animal Totems, you either take a hit in damage to be half as durable as you were with armor, or you fight over the Bracers of Armor with your way squshier spell casters. a +1 Bonus AC and a DEX cap of +4 is literally WORSE than the LIGHTEST of armor you can get. Padded Armor give a +1 AC and a max Dex of +5. So even if you stack you Dex really high, you're better off wearing literal paper armor.
Why not just gain the hide/fur as a constant feature, giving similar stats to well, Hide Armor? And point out that you can rest in the armor with out any discomfort (because it's part of your body now). (oh and you definitely can't wear other type of armor to avoid stacking item bonus's to AC.) It be a really niche thing, but it'd further emphasize your animal totem by slowly altering you appearance to match your totem, that and you could rest "in your armor" so at least your prepared for night ambushes. I don't know how else to make this feat seem interesting with out making it "natural armor" which both Wizards of the Coast and Paizo seem to want to avoid stacking too many bonus's to AC.
Animal Rage, is the feat I have the least concerns about. Losing you armor Check Penalty, gaining low light vision (if u didn't have it already), are nice to have but not all really worth a feat if it's only when you're raging. Again it's assumed you're locked into you chosen animal totem but you can transform into specific animals of the same type. (Lion or Leopard for Cat Totem). OK, again, why not other Totems? I mean the only real difference in the type of Animal Totem's available is how they deal damage, their Movement speed and senses given with this specific feat. I know it's kinda niche, but having access to a climb or swim speed could add a lot of utility to this feat, even if you have to be raging to use it. Missed Opportunity.
Lastly, Predators Pounce as a 12th level feat? Are you kidding me? This should be an 8th level feat. Buff Animal Rage and make that the 12th level Feat. Or better yet this could be the feat that gives you access to those abilities the Animal Companions have (Bear Hug, etc. etc.). This feat does little more than give you the ability to charge with out being seen in the first round of combat. But if you're going to charge into the middle of a large group, then they'll still see you after you've made your attack. So a feat to get hit a flatfooted guy cause he didn't see you coming up anyway? this is just ridiculous.
So let's take a look at the other Totem Options, I'm not going to go into detail cause this post is already stupid long but just for comparisons sake here we go.
The Dragon Totem gives you access to elemental damage and resistances, a breath attack, wings, and the ability to turn into an actual dragon. Anathema: is to do what dragons say and not take insults towards yourself.
Meanwhile the Giant Totem gives you the ability to use over-sized weapons(at the cost of being sluggish 1), you become Large while Raging, and later on you become HUGE. Anethema: Failing to accept a personal Challenge of Strength.
Spirit Totem gives you access to Positive/Negative Damage, resistances against undead, a pretty crappy ward against ranged attacks, and a wisp friend that deals considerable damage (4d8 + your CON). Anathema: being a jerk to dead people
And lastly let's even not talk about the Superstition Totem cause it's Anathema is just garbage (in my opinion). Basically, you literally have to play as an anti-magic character in mostly high-magic setting... or be forced to leave the party if the cleric tries to save your life and heal you against your will.
Conclusion:
Basically, all the Animal Totems are the same and lack the functionality to make them interesting. I know they didn't want the animal totems to stand our in complexity over the other Totem options but unless there's a major rework of how the animal totems are different from each other and maybe add some damage scaling as you level (I still like the my idea for Charms as magic weapons), they just don't seem viable.
These other Totems (with the exception of Superstition) offer bonus's and extra actions in addition to the Barbarians other skills. And all of their Anathema's require some sort of behavior "tenat" they have to follow. While the Animal Totems behavior seems more like a flaw than a trade off.
| Edge93 |
Okay, so I didn't look over the entirety of this post yet though it looks pretty interesting, I like the ideas of the specific animal totems being a little more unique, I just wanted to address the first major problem real quick:
There's actually an item called the Handwraps of Mighty Strikes. It's a hand worn item (it's invested so it'll run you 1 RP each day) that provides the effects of higher weapon quality and/or Potency tunes to your unarmed blows. It even can have property runes. So it's functionally identical to a magic weapon for unarmed.
| PhoenixSlayer |
Okay, so I didn't look over the entirety of this post yet though it looks pretty interesting, I like the ideas of the specific animal totems being a little more unique, I just wanted to address the first major problem real quick:
There's actually an item called the Handwraps of Mighty Strikes. It's a hand worn item (it's invested so it'll run you 1 RP each day) that provides the effects of higher weapon quality and/or Potency tunes to your unarmed blows. It even can have property runes. So it's functionally identical to a magic weapon for unarmed.
I was really confused at first too with the Animal Totem, thinking how in hell do they keep up in damage, but yeah, you're definitely meant to use handwraps like a monk. I believe they still function even when you shift to animal form.
| darktemplar45 |
Edge93 wrote:I was really confused at first too with the Animal Totem, thinking how in hell do they keep up in damage, but yeah, you're definitely meant to use handwraps like a monk. I believe they still function even when you shift to animal form.Okay, so I didn't look over the entirety of this post yet though it looks pretty interesting, I like the ideas of the specific animal totems being a little more unique, I just wanted to address the first major problem real quick:
There's actually an item called the Handwraps of Mighty Strikes. It's a hand worn item (it's invested so it'll run you 1 RP each day) that provides the effects of higher weapon quality and/or Potency tunes to your unarmed blows. It even can have property runes. So it's functionally identical to a magic weapon for unarmed.
Wow i can't beleive i didn't see that. thanks a lot, i still think the class feats for the totem need to be reworked but at least you're not committed to them like u are your Totem. Thanks for the Info!
| PossibleCabbage |
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In addition to not keeping up with damage, since a barbarian can only rage 3 rounds out of 4, what's an animal totem barbarian supposed to attack with in the 4th round if they can't use weapons? It's also way out of flavor for tribes which have animal totems in reality - they still use weapons.
Considering you spend your off-rage turns fatigued, which is "You take a –1 conditional penalty to AC and saving throws; each action you use during an encounter increases the penalty by 1 until the start of your next turn" I don't think that you'd want to use very many actions on your off-rage turns anyway. I would figure "one action to move or one action to try to trip/grapple someone so they don't attack you so much" is ideal.
Having -4 to your AC and saves for a turn is really painful.
| Voss |
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In addition to not keeping up with damage, since a barbarian can only rage 3 rounds out of 4, what's an animal totem barbarian supposed to attack with in the 4th round if they can't use weapons? It's also way out of flavor for tribes which have animal totems in reality - they still use weapons.
It's a big problem in a larger game sense to. Animal totem barbarians (and largely, barbarians in general, monks and paladins) are pretty much implicitly told they can't contribute to any encounter that doesn't involve punching people in the face. (or in the case of paladins, blocking punches)
Animal barbarians have it worst, however. They can't even wield a weapon (not even attack with it, just hold it ready) or lose what few abilities they get.
| darktemplar45 |
Another thing I noticed that I'm pretty sure is right about but it took some flipping through the book to point out.
The Animal Totems have listed Traits on page 55. Now it says they are Unarmed Strikes and some of them have the Agile Trait and some don't, but what I noticed missing was that there weren't any finesse properties.
Now under "Unarmed Attacks" on page 178 it says the following:
"Use the statistics for a fist even if you’re kicking,
kneeing, or attacking with another part of your body.
Some ancestry feats, class features, class feats, and spells
give access to special, more powerful unarmed attacks."
I look at "Fist" on the table, low and behold the, Finesse, Agile, Nonlethal, and Unarmed Properties.
So this technically means that all of the Animal Totems can be used with the Finesse Trait, Right? Same goes with the Non-Lethal Trait?
If so they should've added though traits to the Animal Totem's Table.
IF NOT HOWEVER, then they really should add some of "non-lethal" and "finesse" properties, to some of the Animal Totems. That could be one way to differentiate the animals. Like maybe the the Frog (the only attack that deals Bludgeoning) can be Non-lethal, but the Cat can have Finesse to their Claw Attacks.
| Pramxnim |
Fist is just a specific Unarmed Attack with specific traits. Monsters also have Unarmed Attacks, and those have the Agile or Finesse trait as necessary, but not the Nonlethal trait.
Similarly, some of the Barbarian's Unarmed Strikes with the Animal Totem may have the Agile trait, but not the Finesse or Nonlethal traits.
| darktemplar45 |
Fist is just a specific Unarmed Attack with specific traits. Monsters also have Unarmed Attacks, and those have the Agile or Finesse trait as necessary, but not the Nonlethal trait.
Similarly, some of the Barbarian's Unarmed Strikes with the Animal Totem may have the Agile trait, but not the Finesse or Nonlethal traits.
Dang i was hoping some of them did. While STR and Con are important stats for a Barbarian, it makes sense not to make the Barbarian a Dex/Con class.
Dennis Muldoon
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The handwraps seem like a ridiculous item to add magic to bull horns that sprout while raging. I wish either the item was written more generally, rather than being specific to fists, or that there were another item for non-fist unarmed attacks.
| shroudb |
I find that animal Totem is one of the better designed ones actually:
attacks:
It has some of the best, if not THE best two-wielding attacks:
take animals like the cat as an example:
1d10 primary, 1d8 agile secondary.
that means you attack at d10/d8/d8 as if using two-wielding
the very best weapon alternatives would have been d8/d6/d6
so, you basically have 1 extra die size on both the primary and the secondary attacks compared to everyone else. PLUS it only uses 1 "hand" so you're free to also use a shield alongside the best dual wielding attacks. Extremely powerful from level 1, gets even better at 3 (when you can pick up shield prof).
armor:
you spend a feat to change the -1 to +1, and you wear bracers (which are basically a +1 armor)
So, compared to other barbarians, you're at +3 armor/+4 max dex
Which is exactly the same as if wearing any medium armor.
So, you pay a feat to basically have "medium armor" while you're clad in no armor category. It isn't amazing, but it's hardly "bad". Could have been a feat that read "eliminate moving speed reductions in medium armor", and it would effectively be the same.
Shapeshift
all barbarian morpghs suck due to duration. animal totem is no exception, there's almost none redeming value in this feat.
...but at least you're not falling from the sky like dragon!
Pounce
free action pounce
Yup, enter rage and get a free action move and a free action strike... That this is ridiculously powerful. One of the strongest feats in the game by itself, that gets ridicusly powerful due to the class ability you gain 1 level before you grab this.