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None of the other magic weapons are invested. I'm wondering why they are.
Because you wear them, and for no other reason that I can discern.
Mechanically: unlike a weapon, you aren't (necessarily) striking with the handwraps themselves, so they need to enchant your body. All other magic items that grant the wearer a capability are invested.
Balance: they can't be disarmed and aren't socially obvious that you're well armed.
I thought magic weapons DID need the investment, but you're right. They don't (but armor does).
Huh.
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Because you wear them, and for no other reason that I can discern.
gauntlets and spiked gauntlets are worn too.
Balance: they can't be disarmed and aren't socially obvious that you're well armed.
can't disarm a gauntlet and handwraps seem as easy to notice than a gauntlet.
Because Monks cant have nice things, and now they have to be MAD for Charisma too so they aren't behind other Martial Classes on Resonance.
LOL now THIS I can believe... :P
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You know we could be constructive and suggest to the development team that they should be treated as weapons NAW screw that lets just be snarky.
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You know what's funny (in a mistake kinda way?) RAW you need to invest handwraps of mighty fist (expert) and they aren't even magical yet (except that they are because they have the magical trait???)
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You know we could be constructive
After seeing the monk robbed of all weapon proficiencies, it doesn't really seem snarky to suggest 'monks can't have nice things [unless they PAY to get them]. :(
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Wouldn't it make more sense to request the development team to add prof to them (Which i actually did so myself in fact on that exact issue) I mean do you think the design team purpose is literally to make the monk a class that no one wants to play or do you think that maybe they had some weird idea that popped into their head or maybe just forgot something and they need some people to point out some things they need to add?
(my theory is they just wanted people to play test unarmed monks for the play test since they have other classes to test the weapons).
The whole "PAIZO HATES SUCH AND SUCH" sounds like a little kid whining.
Because you wear them, and for no other reason that I can discern.
gauntlets and spiked gauntlets are worn too.
Balance: they can't be disarmed and aren't socially obvious that you're well armed.can't disarm a gauntlet and handwraps seem as easy to notice than a gauntlet.
Because Monks cant have nice things, and now they have to be MAD for Charisma too so they aren't behind other Martial Classes on Resonance.LOL now THIS I can believe... :P
Magic Gauntlets don't infuse your body with power so a headbutt does more damage too, just your fists. This is relevant for things like combat maneuvers, holding a torch in the dark, or using a shield.
They also do crap damage compared to a dedicated unarmed build.
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I'm sorry if my pet Snark got out of his cage. He's a rascal for sure!
But for real, Handwraps being Invested is simply a Resonance Tax on Monk, and a scathing one at that since on average the Monk will almost ALWAYS have more $$$ to spend on Magic Items since they're saving the big bucks not purchasing Weapons, Armor, Spells, Animals, Consumables, Trinkets, and in some circumstances, even paying for Services such as housing or Food.
A simple fix there would be to either:
A) Remove the Investment for Bracers of Armor & Handwraps of Mighty Fists
B) Allow Monk to Calculate Resonance based off Level + Wisdom
Clearly, if weapons don't need investment (which makes no sense but is needed from a mechanical point of view), neither should handwraps. This should be done to keep monks consistent with other martials.
Also, monks should have some weapon proficiences, especially in a ranged weapon like bows. In movies like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, the monks can use bows, I don't see why they couldn't in PF2 too.
But in general, I'd like to see resonance replaced with a different solution to fix the healing problem.
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I believe handwraps (and future "weapon equivalent" magic items, i.e. things that exclusively make your attack better) should not require investment.
If it works like a weapon (i.e. you can swap runes out of weapons into it, you use it to enhance your strikes) it should function like a weapon in other ways.
Ofcourse what I really want is for the monks to not need the weapon enchanted handwraps at all. I want their hands to just improve by themselves, I'm probably in the minority however.
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Wouldn't it make more sense to request the development team to add prof to them
I've done that in multiple places.
The whole "PAIZO HATES SUCH AND SUCH" sounds like a little kid whining.
*shrug* removing EVERY weapon proficiency from a class seems mean and unneeded: Making a class unable to engage in a basic combat tactic [ranged combat] should make anyone wonder why the class is being treated like it kicked someone's dog...
Because you wear them, and for no other reason that I can discern.
gauntlets and spiked gauntlets are worn too.
Balance: they can't be disarmed and aren't socially obvious that you're well armed.can't disarm a gauntlet and handwraps seem as easy to notice than a gauntlet.
Because Monks cant have nice things, and now they have to be MAD for Charisma too so they aren't behind other Martial Classes on Resonance.LOL now THIS I can believe... :PMagic Gauntlets don't infuse your body with power so a headbutt does more damage too, just your fists. This is relevant for things like combat maneuvers, holding a torch in the dark, or using a shield.
They also do crap damage compared to a dedicated unarmed build.
You'll note I disagreed with specific claims: that worn items always require resonances, items that can't be disarmed should required resonance and items that can be concealed should require resonance. I think I proved that those specific arguments are incorrect. Do you disagree with my conclusion on those specific things?
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Ofcourse what I really want is for the monks to not need the weapon enchanted handwraps at all. I want their hands to just improve by themselves, I'm probably in the minority however.
They just want all classes to play by the same rules.
If they ever do change how weapons do damage, I'm sure monks will follow along.
Wouldn't it make more sense to request the development team to add prof to themI've done that in multiple places.
The whole "PAIZO HATES SUCH AND SUCH" sounds like a little kid whining.*shrug* removing EVERY weapon proficiency from a class seems mean and unneeded: Making a class unable to engage in a basic combat tactic [ranged combat] should make anyone wonder why the class is being treated like it kicked someone's dog...
You'll note I disagreed with specific claims: that worn items always require resonances, items that can't be disarmed should required resonance and items that can be concealed should require resonance. I think I proved that those specific arguments are incorrect. Do you disagree with my conclusion on those specific things?Because you wear them, and for no other reason that I can discern.
gauntlets and spiked gauntlets are worn too.
Balance: they can't be disarmed and aren't socially obvious that you're well armed.can't disarm a gauntlet and handwraps seem as easy to notice than a gauntlet.
Because Monks cant have nice things, and now they have to be MAD for Charisma too so they aren't behind other Martial Classes on Resonance.LOL now THIS I can believe... :PMagic Gauntlets don't infuse your body with power so a headbutt does more damage too, just your fists. This is relevant for things like combat maneuvers, holding a torch in the dark, or using a shield.
They also do crap damage compared to a dedicated unarmed build.
I'm sorry but your response was so delayed I no longer have a passion for the argument. I've moved on. hopefully next time.
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I'm sorry but your response was so delayed I no longer have a passion for the argument. I've moved on. hopefully next time.
LOL Sorry for the delay but I had to wait for the site to start working before I could catch up and reply. ;)
I'm sorry but your response was so delayed I no longer have a passion for the argument. I've moved on. hopefully next time.LOL Sorry for the delay but I had to wait for the site to start working before I could catch up and reply. ;)
Yeah its hard to believe I haven't got to but heads with you yet since the official play test forum started. I blame the server being down.
The other thing is the general forum is really wearing me down to the point where I don't even want to read anymore. To many repeat posts about the same issue and not enough constructive arguments. I'm trying to focus on specifics a bit for my feedback like this issue isn't bad. I get the idea you know its a monk weapon that requires res when other weapons don't.
but really I like to figure out solutions to problems mostly.
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That's a GREAT point, why DID Monks lose all their Weapon Profs? Having to purchase them back with a Class Feat is beyond insulting IMO and it simply doesn't make sense to me..
Why not just give them the same Monk Weapon Profs they've always had, lump their Unarmed Attacks in with "Monk Weapons" and give them a sentence in Powerful Fist that allows them to etch Runes to their Body, simple fix.
Yeah its hard to believe I haven't got to but heads with you yet since the official play test forum started. I blame the server being down.
Yeah, there has been a crazy amount of site issues. I was beginning to wonder if got too busy and forgot to pay their bills. ;)
The other thing is the general forum is really wearing me down to the point where I don't even want to read anymore.
I can get this. For myself, it's been playing the actual playtest that's been wearing me down. The brutal meatgrinder gameplay has left me lacking the energy to continue at the moment and even if I get my motivation back, I have to find a new group as everyone else, including the DM, left.
To many repeat posts about the same issue and not enough constructive arguments.
For me, I'm still not used to the new website and playtest section. Between that and the website issues, I'm not sure who's posting where or when they did. As such, I'm not really noticing repeats in a meaningful way.
I'm trying to focus on specifics a bit for my feedback like this issue isn't bad.
Oh, I understand that. I just need to vent a bit as that's about all I have energy for.
I get the idea you know its a monk weapon that requires res when other weapons don't.
I'm... not getting what you're saying here. What do you mean by 'res'?
That's a GREAT point, why DID Monks lose all their Weapon Profs? /QUOTE]
If I had to guess, it is because of how flurry now interacts with the new action economy. Old flurry required all your attacks in a round to be made with monk weapons. New flurry does not. Which means if you get a weapon with superior damage dice or other features than the basic unarmed strike, it becomes unequivocally better to use it than all unarmed, even if only to switch between strikes. Longspear > Unarmed Flurry > Unarmed Strike is better than Unarmed Flurry > Unarmed Strike > Unarmed Strike. And that's without touching weapons you can flurry with.
I think he meant Resonance, just guessing.I get the idea you know its a monk weapon that requires res when other weapons don't.I'm... not getting what you're saying here. What do you mean by 'res'?
Ah, that might be it. He went back to talking about the handwraps.
If I had to guess, it is because of how flurry now interacts with the new action economy. Old flurry required all your attacks in a round to be made with monk weapons. New flurry does not. Which means if you get a weapon with superior damage dice or other features than the basic unarmed strike, it becomes unequivocally better to use it than all unarmed, even if only to switch between strikes. Longspear > Unarmed Flurry > Unarmed Strike is better than Unarmed Flurry > Unarmed Strike > Unarmed Strike. And that's without touching weapons you can flurry with.
That requires multiple 'weapons' getting enchanted and resonance spent. As such, it doesn't seem to be that great a deal when the 'normal' two weapon build can use a doubling rings for the second weapon. Nifty tactic at start but once magic weapons come into play...
I get that it makes all your unarmed attacks better, but mechanically I'm not sure how much better they are than gauntlets and in a world where warrior monks are a known quantity, it's not like the guards are going to leave you with your handwraps.
I would actually just be okay if handwraps were non-magic items that could accept runes like gauntlets are. They would have the monk trait, be listed in with common equipment. If you just have to have the effects everything, you could have that be relegated to a Property Rune.
Having tested the level 4 monk in Part 2, they're lack of resonance combined with the extra tax makes low-level play... interesting.
4 resonance at level 4 with at least one going to a magic weapon puts Monks already behind.
My other issue with the handwraps and the bracers of armor is that being magical out of the gate means that potency crystals and oils of potency don't work. So in those big boss fights, you're the only one not popping for extra damage. Making base normal and expert handwraps non-magical would fix that issue as well.
Having created a bunch of level 4 characters, equipping the monk was by far the most difficult. They don't get ranged proficiency out of the gate. They're short on resonance and they have a tax in the form of their weapon.
Oh and to add insult to injury, once they do pick up monk weapon proficiency, they rules for enchanting shuriken are iffy, but seem to imply you can't. Which again leaves monks without a good range option before they start flying around Wushu-like.
Yeah the metric system figured it out. as it so often does...
I haven't got to play test yet by group has been busy lately with real life stuff.
From what I can tell from reading it and peoples comments the system is overtuned atm. Which is at least something easily fixed just adjust the monsters numbers a bit.
Then thier is a lot of little things that need tweeking. I need to make a list.
The biggest issue I've seen is the ones that are more about how people prefer to play instead of actual mechanics issues. like the +level thing is just crazy right now.
So yeah I can see how it makes sense for the hand wraps to work from a thematic sense but it is a weapon so it is unfair. I guess a compromise would be for it to give a little extra then what a weapon would. so the 1 resonance is worth it.
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I guess a compromise would be for it to give a little extra then what a weapon would. so the 1 resonance is worth it.
This would still leave the gap between 1st and whenever you get your +1 handwraps since you can't apply oils or crystals of potency.
That said, it's likely that oils and crystals of potency are a bad idea overall. Since they don't actually work past early levels, is there some math that says we need them at all. It seems like the encounters should just be tuned as if they weren't available at all.
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That said, it's likely that oils and crystals of potency are a bad idea overall. Since they don't actually work past early levels, is there some math that says we need them at all. It seems like the encounters should just be tuned as if they weren't available at all.
They're also really freaking expensive. 20 silver. Assuming a 1st level character buys nothing else they can afford 7 of them.
That gets you through 2-3 days of adventuring.
