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As some people who have read the forums are probably aware, I have been mostly negative about the playtest so far. This has largely come my initial shock at reading the playtest document, where I found about all spells of my favorite class in PF1E, the Sorcerer, to be nerfed. I’ve been advocating since then to lessen or remove those nerfs. There are other issues I heavily disagree with, like the level bonus and the need to have a Cleric in the party to have a decently long adventuring day. But the issues with arcane casters and spells in general have been what have made the playtest a depressing experience for me so far.
But uninformed advocacy is not really helpful to a conversation and hence I’ve taken the time to first do a statistical analysis of what expected monster statistics are for each level, as well as expected spell DC’s for arcane casters and AC/TAC and attack bonuses for four of the common martial classes you can expect to be frontline fighters. This has given me some deeper understanding about which success chances the developers are desiring for players spells and melee attacks, as well how well frontline classes can stand up to being attacked in melee by opponents. I have mostly focused on same level threats, since those are the ones which should be best balanced to face player characters.
However, before I begin with my analysis, a bit about myself: I have been playing D&D/Pathfinder since 1998, where I began with AD&D and then changed to D&D 3rd Edition in 2000. I’ve been playing that game ever since, through 3.5 and PF1E. My core group of gamers I play with has stayed mostly stable, with a group of 4-6 players since 1998 and another group of 4 players since about 2007. I have been GM’ing for the first group since 2002, run three home-brewn campaigns to level 20, and a good number of AP’s to their conclusion, those being Curse of the Crimson Throne, Rise of the Runelords, Carrion Crown, Jade Regent (twice, once for each group), Wrath of the Righteous and Reign of Winter. I am currently running Shattered Star. I also have played or even GM’ed other RPG systems like Star Wars: Saga Edition, Shadowrun 4th Edition, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Vampire: The Masquerade and a smattering of play sessions in other stuff. I think I can say, without being a braggart about it, that I am an experienced GM.
Back to the topic: My analysis of average saving throws, spell DC’s, attack rolls and armor class values has yielded one clear conclusion: You are expected to, on average, succeed and fail 50% of the time with your spells or attacks against a same level opponent. There are of some variations on that, for example that the Fortitude saves monsters produce have generally more of a 60% fail chance for your caster. But since spell DC’s are only dependent on having a maxed out main casting stat at all times, your level and getting your one stat boosting item at level 14, the chance to succeed against same level threats is a very stable affair.
Lower level threats have a 5% decreasing change per level to succeed (with jumps at levels 10, 14 and 20, when you are expected to have increased your attribute modifier to spell DC’s). The same in reverse goes for higher level threats. Individual monsters will of course have variations on this, but quite a lot of the provided threats in the playtest bestiary actually have the average saving throw for their level.
What that means is that it isn’t possible anymore to optimize a character to beat certain saves, which was the bread and butter of spellcaster offense in PF1E. The ability to do so made builds like blasting, save or suck or action denial useful in the first place. With the new paradigm, succeeding with a spell at beating a saving throw of a same-level threat is basically a 50/50 coin toss, sometimes even less than that. This means that since optimization is not possible anymore, the best outcome is either the enemy failing the save or that there is a good effect on your spell even if the opponent does make its save. Since the number of spells per day has been nerfed, you have to make your actions count more than you did before. Having a spell do nothing in combat means you not only wasted your action but also that you shortened the adventuring day of the entire party so much more.
Attack bonuses and armor class values skew the same way, with Fighters having a better chance to hit same-level threats than Barbarians, Monks and Paladins (about 60-65% for their primary attack, compared to 10% less for the other three classes) and Paladins having the best armor values, with “only” a 55% chance to get hit with a same-level threats primary melee attack at most levels. This is however very dependent on them having maxed out their primary stat, getting their weapon and armor runes at the appropriate levels and getting their one stat booster at level 14.
So, where does that leave arcane spellcasters? The arcane spell list, as presented in the playtest rulebook, heavily skews towards five aspects: Utility, blasting, buffing party members, debuffing opponents and battlefield control. So, how do they stack up? Let’s examine each one individually:
Utility: These spells count towards providing services to the party like fast travel, flying, opening things, communication, magic reconnaissance, even cleaning stuff and making life easier. This area has been hit with the double whammy of almost all of these spells being nerfed in their functionality and about half of them having been put on the Uncommon list. At least, if your GM is nice enough to allow you getting those uncommon spells like Teleport or Magnificent Mansion, you provide something which no other class can do. Otherwise the occult, primal and divine spell lists each share quite a lot with the arcane list now. Still probably the strongest aspect of the arcane casters, but being the butler for the rest of the party is not exactly the heroic fantasy I have for playing a Wizard or Sorcerer.
Conclusion: Doubly nerfed but probably still the best you can do.
Blasting: Oh, so much nerfed. Never the strongest options in PF1E, this is now even worse. Having to fill higher level spell slots to cast a half-decent nuke at your level is painful and, given the static 50/50 chance to actually deal full damage, is not really worth it. The exception are low threat encounters where you can clear rooms quickly, but you might as well let the martials do that stuff and contribute a few cantrips. Damaging cantrips are the only half-way decent aspect of blasting, since they don’t cost you spell slots which let you do actually useful things instead.
Conclusion: Mostly not worthwhile anymore.
Buffing: There are a few worthwhile things left to put on yourself, like Mage Armor, False Life and Mirror Image. Yet the majority of self-buffs have been limited to a one minute duration. You are probably best off putting the few long-duration ones up and only cast Mirror Image or Fly at the start of combat on yourself, as the situation dictates. As for buff options for other party members, Haste, Blur or Invisibility (fourth level version) are among the few worthwhile ones which remain. You will only have time to put up one of those each combat, since the duration has pretty uniformly been reduced to one minute. They are single target only, too, at least until really high levels where Haste gets back its normal number of targets at thirteenth level.
Conclusion: Better left to the Bard.
Debuffing: The 50/50 chance to succeed means one thing: Only take debuffs which somewhat hinder the target even on a successful saving throw. The best option for that is Blindness, which leaves the target blind for at least one round (except on a critical success). Since blindness is a really strong condition, this puts the spell heads and shoulders above all the others. Enervation still is pretty good and there are useful spells like Slow, which provide a mass variant at higher level. But at least half the debuffing spells are just worse variations on each other, with no result if the target saves. Dispel Magic is much reduced in its utility, since it is strictly single target now (no more Greater Dispel Magic) and you need to know which spell you are dispelling beforehand.
Conclusion: Load up on Blindness, put in some Enervations for opponents which don’t rely on vision and at higher levels add Slow to have a mass debuff. Throw in a Dispel Magic to get rid of the Mirror Image / Fly buff an opponent can cast now at the start of combat. The other spells are worse than those four.
Battlefield Control: There are some still the “Wall of…” spells which allow you to separate non-flying opponents from each other. Black Tentacles got half a nerf and half a buff, since both spell DC and Fortitude DC’s scale pretty linearly, but the tentacles are now attackable and pretty fragile. There’s even an anti-flying spell on the list. Of course everything is nerfed in some way from before, but this aspect of being an arcane caster actually still works.
Conclusion: Probably one of the more useful things you can do with your spell slots outside of utility spells.
So, where does that leave us? It’s pretty clear that the developers want an environment which is less high fantasy than what we had since 3.0 dropped in 2000. Magic has become weaker almost universally, the Uncommon spell list makes fast travel and many conveniences dependent if your GM likes them to exist and specialization into one aspect of your class has become mostly impossible. Blasting is by far and large useless, effective party buffing has been relegated to the high levels of gameplay and debuffing/battlefield control are aspects we share with the occult and primal spell lists, while buffing is better done by divine and occult spellcasters. The only thing left where arcane casters can uniquely help the party are some utility spells, of which many of the good ones are, as already pointed out, on the Uncommon list. And being the bus boy and butler for the party is really why you’d play a Sorcerer over a Bard or a Wizard over a Druid?
To make it worthwhile again to play a Wizard or Sorcerer again, in my opinion something has to be done. Hence, my recommendations to the developers is to do some of the things as follows:
- Drop the Uncommon spell list. Getting access to utility spells should not be left up to the whim of the GM or the roll of a die. This is especially egregious for the Sorcerer, who has about a 70% chance of failing his Arcana check for his spell research and should just be able learn those spells as he gets access to their required level, anyway.
- Restore the duration on at least some of the buff spells, like Resist Energy, since they become useless if they have only a one minute duration. A longer duration should probably not exist for spells which provide additional actions or attack buffs, but a spell which prevents only some (very much nerfed) elemental damage on one party member (and only very much later to multiple ones) is essentially useless if you can only cast it when already in combat.
- Reverse the nerf on harmless quality of life spells like Prestidigitation and Unseen Servant. Nerfing fun quality of life for nebulous reasons is really the cherry on top of the pile of disappointments arcane caster fans had to go through since the playtest started.
- Provide more spell slots per day, if the short duration on spells stays like it is. Otherwise the adventuring day becomes obviously much shorter than it already is. This hits the arcane casters as much as all other classes (except the Cleric, the class which by itself doubles the average adventuring day of a party).
- Include options to make blasting worthwhile again, i.e. Elemental Focus/Greater Elemental Focus like class feats. Personally, I’d remove the spell heightening requirements for additional damage dice as well, since the opportunity cost of an eight level Fireball is so much worse against the vastly expanded hitpoint pools at higher levels.
- Allow spontaneous heightening for Sorcerers for all their spells, since so far the Wizard comes out so far ahead that I, someone from whom the Sorcerer has been his favorite class since 3.0 came out, can't see the point of choosing one over a Wizard.
This is probably my last hail mary to change the minds of the developers. I’ll still try and get my guys organized for playtesting throughout the next months and have them and myself do the surveys. But if I don’t see announced actions until the end of the year to pull back on a good number of the published nerfs, I will probably decide in the end to stay with First Edition and plunder Second Edition for useful house rule ideas, like the racial hit die at first level, the action economy with slight changes for swift action heavy classes, some scaling cantrips and probably some other stuff. My adventure path subscription will probably lapse after the first new AP has been published, since as a consequence of most utility spells now being available only at higher levels (and on the Uncommon list), the fundamentals of how certain aspects of an AP’s story will be told will also have to change. That makes converting the new AP’s back to PF1E probably not worth the time, although I admit that really interesting story premises might make me come back and subscribe for another half year.
In the short run this will actually benefit Paizo financially, since in that case I will get all the hardcovers I am still missing, all Pawn collections I still need, at least the Mummy’s Mask AP and maybe even a few softcovers, all to the tune of about 600-700 Euros. But in the long run, I’ll be a lost customer for all the published hardcovers and adventure paths in the future. Since I got published AP material for at least the next six years, this doesn’t bother me as much as it would otherwise. But I still have hopes that the developers really put out only the most extreme version of their new rules and are still prepared to pull back from the most egregious of those extreme changes. We’ll see.
So, quo vadis, Paizo?
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So, I put in two days to examine the entire spell list. This was done to write an informed post, which is posted above. But since I put in all the hard work, I thought I’d share my insights with others. Feel free to disagree with my assessments, as they are all my opinions and my own. I had to edit the entire thing to end up with a less… acerbic version, given how doing this for hours had my frustration mounting quite a bit.
Acid Splash: It has minor damage, but no save and applies persistent damage. If fights in PF2E really last longer than two rounds, it actually is decent.
Chill Touch: Decent damage at touch range, about half to a third of what a melee character can do in one round.
Dancing Lights: The less useful Light spell returns. Still inconsequential.
Daze: A decent set-up spell for your party Rogue. It has lost its HD limit. Allows a Will save.
Detect Magic: Nerfed into the ground from its PF1E version. Apparently to prevent magic trap detection spam or give Identify a place.
Disrupt Undead: Decent damage against undead. Allows a Fortitude save for half damage and therefore it is bad.
Electric Arc: Although it allows a Reflex save, this being a two target nuke makes it actually decently damaging for a cantrip.
Ghost Sound: Has mostly the same functionality as last edition. Becomes only really reliably usable at level 5, though, when you are so able to be far away that people maybe won’t notice you chanting magic in front of them.
Light: Aside from the terrible illumination rules (seriously, why remove the additional dim light radius AND make darkvision have no fixed range?), this is an upgrade over its PF1E version.
Mage Hand: It’s still pretty usable, however the wording is off. You already are concentrating to maintain the spell, why can you “move the object an additional 20 feet” if you double hard concentrate? Or can you use multiple concentration actions in one round? Then it would make sense.
Message: Got a hard nerf, before it was an excellent way to establish a whispering network between all your groupmates, which could come in handy in certain situations. Now limited to one person.
Prestidigitation: The worst nerf in the entire playtest. One of the most fun spells, with no in-game balance issues. This definitely falls under the “balancing the fun right out of the game” umbrella, and very unnecessarily so. This spell needs to go back to its PF1E version.
Produce Flame: Single target nuke with okay damage and the slight possibility of adding very decent persistent damage. Not as good as Electric Arc or Ray of Frost.
Ray of Frost: Very decent damage at good range for a single target cantrip nuke. Probably the best single-target cantrip, with Electric Arc overtaking it if there are multiple opponents present.
Read Aura: Why does this spell exist when Detect Magic also exists? Yeah, you can discern that one or some items are magic and which school they have, with a 10 minute casting time. If you put a single item before a guy with Detect Magic, he also will do that that and get the school of magic at third level.
Shield: A decent enough new version of this spell. The 10 minute dismissal time is a bit harsh, but then again with almost no long-running buffs in the game anymore, standing in a room 10 minutes and waiting for it to be ready again should be no problem. At best a Wizard can also relearn a spell with Quick Study in that time.
Sigil: Sadly this does not port over the awesome Planescape city of the same name into Golarion continuity. :) As in the past edition, this is a fun spell which nobody normally takes, because you have limited spell slots. Maybe a Wizard can buy it now, because Quick Study is fast enough to actually do something with the spell. My Sorcerer I’m currently playing got it with a page of spell knowledge, but alas, they don’t exist anymore.
Tanglefoot: This is actually a great cantrip, because it applies a decent condition on your opponent with just a hit against TAC and doesn’t eat a regular spell slot. The effect lasts until the opponent spends a non-guaranteed to succeed action on removing it. Also, there is no size restriction, so entangle those Tyrannosaurs and Ancient Red Dragons at your leisure.
Telekinetic Projectile: This is a decent nuke spell, but it depends on your GM being nice and giving you stuff to throw at your opponents. If you don’t have a nice GM, always bring several bags of small rocks, razors and needles with you. This is probably the best single target cantrip against targets with physical weaknesses (like zombies).
Air Bubble: This has been nerfed from a short-duration underwater exploration spell and protection against inhaled gases, into a sort of Feather Fall for people who cannot breathe underwater. I’m not sure if the duration of one minute is enough to fulfil the intended purpose. Definitely another case of a too harsh nerf for a pretty harmless spell.
Alarm: Pretty much unchanged, except the heightened version is pretty useless for a third level spell.
Ant Haul: Still very useful and decent changes which work well with the bulk system. Good for low-strength Wizards/Sorcerers who want to run around in a half-plate.
Burning Hands: As all area effect damage spells, not worth your time and precious spell slots, unless you are constantly fighting trash mobs. And then you probably are only using this spell until you get Fireball.
Charm: Decent, with the caveat that the target doesn’t critically save. One of the few spells which still has a useable duration.
Color Spray: Now okay at all levels. Even if the target succeeds at its save, it will now have a 20% miss chance with its attacks for one round. Decent save or suck spell at first level. Of course it is not as instantly deadly as its PF1E counterpart, which is a good thing.
Command: Nerfed from its PF1E version. It’s a 50/50 toss-up if it does nothing against same level challenges.
Create Water: Nerfed from its cantrip version. Still allows people to cross deserts with impunity, though.
Fear: Provides set-up for a spell combo with another spellcaster. If the target makes its save, it still has 5% less chance to save against a follow-up spell in the same round.
Feather Fall: Actually a better spell than its prior version, at least until you pass level 10 and would get a longer duration if PF1E.
Fleet Step: Expeditious Retreat with the usual duration nerfs to one minute. Still decent for one fight. Casting Mirror Image or Fly is a better option, though.
Floating Disc: Its duration has been nerfed to make it useless for long travels. I can’t see many people still wanting this spell, unless they don’t know where to burn their money. Ant Haul clearly is superior.
Goblin Pox: That’s what you get if you allow goblins in your party! Although it is touch range, it has a decent effect even on a save success, costing the opponent actions to get rid of it, with no guarantee of success.
Grease: Depending on how many monsters and characters have Acrobatics, this is still a very decent save or suck spell. Making enemy attacks 10% less likely to hit is no mean feat. Not as powerful anymore as its PF1E variant, though.
Grim Tendrils: It’s Lightning Bolt for poor people. The persistent bleed damage is okay, but not enough to significantly affect most fights, unless they last very long.
Gust of Wind: Decent as a level one spell. Still unclear if it can disperse a Stinking Cloud or Solid Fog.
Illusory Disguise: A pretty decent substitute for Disguise Self and its successor illusion spells. Duration nerfed after level 6, buffed before that.
Illusory Object: Good substitute for some the Illusory XYZ spells from last edition.
Item Façade: Nice spell for deceiving people to buy your junk items.
Jump: Actually a decent buff to the spell, in that you can do Jedi standing high jumps now, as long as you land on a ledge.
Lock: Slightly nerfed but also slightly buffed. A decent trade.
Longstrider: Both versions are pretty good and worth it for dungeon exploration and combat encounters. Only personal, though.
Mage Armor: Here’s where I first go “eeeeeh….?!?” with the heightening rules. If you do not take Fighter Dedication or spend general feats to get armor proficiencies, this spell eats up at least one high level slot per day. With decent dexterity it probably is still worth it, but Sorcerers are weeping over the wasted Spell Known slot. Having to waste Spontaneous Heightening otherwise for it when there are so many more important spells for it seems a tax to not suck.
Magic Aura: This is one of the cornercase spells with which you can do fun stuff but which you’d otherwise wouldn’t take (especially as a Sorcerer). Making it Uncommon is one of those baffling decisions.
Magic Missile: At first level this spell is a pretty sweet deal. It gets worse numerically, though, and very fastly. Still could be decent when facing some monster which is otherwise pretty unhittable, but when will you know that beforehand so that you prepare enough Magic Missiles to be useful?
Magic Weapon: A decent buff spell at first to third level until everyone has their magic weapon, then it becomes utterly useless.
Mending: Removing this from the cantrip list and putting it at first level makes me think someone on the forums made a really whiny thread about the poor seamstresses of Golarion. :p The higher level applications are decent, though, and maybe can help with all those dented shields the Fighter and Paladin are lugging around. The casting time of one hour is excessive, though. I guess the party is supposed to sit around one day twiddling their thumbs while the Wizard is removing dents?
Negate Aroma: Still useful in cornercase situations.
Ray of Enfeeblement: A good debuff, the target even gets debuffed on a normal save, probably for the duration of the entire fight.
Shocking Grasp: It’s touch range, it’s damage is “eh” and it conditionally becomes slightly less “eh” if the target wears metal armor. Avoid.
Sleep: Now works at all levels. A 5-foot AOE, so if you can catch four people grouped up tightly, use a better AOE spell. Ahem. The effect on a successful save is trivial, so there are better spells like Color Spray out there.
Spider Sting: It’s touch range and the effect is negligible on a successful save. Better avoid unless you are themed for being a poisoner.
Summon Monster: Summoning has been hit hard, you need to spend one of your actions each round (until at least level 14) to command the creature and it only gets two actions per round. Not to mention that the creatures are always lower level than a same-level encounter, with escalating intensity and the list is a mix of a few neutral creatures and mostly demons and devils after that. No place for a good-aligned summoner, I guess. At level one the difference in levels is not that noticeable yet, so it’s okay-ish. There are better spells to take, unless you need a poor pony to step on a suspicious pressure plate.
True Strike: As a cantrip this would be fantastic for a melee mage build. As a level one spell it really gets very expensive, very fast. And you can cast it only on yourself.
Unseen Servant: Nerfed into the ground. Another case of balancing fun out of the game. :-/
Ventriloquism: Useful in cornercase situations, mostly in its second level version.
Acid Arrow: Actually this is now a decent single target nuke at its level. Having to cast it as a fourth, sixth and eight level spell to get a bit more damage out of it is really bad, though. Overall, Acid Splash is probably your better choice if you want persistent acid damage.
Blur: With the removal of Displacement, this is decent enough. Since the duration is one minute, though, I’m not sure when you’d find the time to cast it.
Comprehend Languages: With the heightening options this is the replacement for Tongues. Interestingly, this spell is not Uncommon, which beg the question why Tongues still exists and is Uncommon.
Continual Flame: It has more than doubled in price and there are bafflingly heightened (and more expensive) versions up until tenth level spells. I have no ideas why one would use them, since Light is a cantrip and can be heightened at will. The light doesn’t even get bigger with the heightened versions.
Create Food: Now also an arcane spell. Makes, together with Create Water, crossing long tracts of uninhabitable wastelands a breeze. Except for the monsters, hazards and so on, of course.
Darkness: Now with a range of 120 foot. Pretty decent, especially the fourth level variant. Can foil archer encounters.
Darkvision: Still decent with a one hour duration. Given that spells per day will probably run out long before that, it’s good enough.
Deafness: Deaf is not a good enough condition to waste a slot on this spell.
Endure Elements: Nerfed from its way too good PF1E version. I’d still take it on my Sorcerer, because having creature comforts are a good part of roleplaying a character. I probably wouldn’t even include the fifth level version if I were the developers.
Enlarge: This spell is a trap option to cast on your melee martials against same level opponents or higher level opponents. You don’t want to diminish their attack bonus, because your chance to hit is not good enough to risk it. Against lower level opponents it becomes decent, due to the increased damage output and reach. Although since AoO’s are mostly a thing of the past, reach isn’t that good anymore, either.
False Life: Still good. Don’t use the heightened versions.
Flaming Sphere: Actually, this is pretty decent if you can spare the one action per round to move it around. And you can probably run around with the Flaming Sphere through several rooms. If you spend a class feat at level 14 on it, you even have your full actions left after casting it.
Gentle Repose: Useful in some situations. Get a scroll.
Glitterdust: Badly nerfed, since it was a really good spell in PF1E. Still useful, but needs more set-up so that your martials can finish off the invisible creature in one round.
Hideous Laughter: If you fear that monster reaction abilities are too good, this is the spell for you.
Humanoid Form: The replacement for Alter Self. The duration after level 10 has been nerfed, making the spell much less useful for infiltration missions. Better before that level, though. Since there are no more Rods of Extend Spell, everybody needs to get their disguise kits more ready than before.
Illusory Creature: Illusory summon. Has the same problems as Summon Monster spells and also the problems illusions normally have. Avoid.
Invisibility: The duration has been severely nerfed, making it almost useless for exploration. The best manner you probably can use the spell is to cast the fourth level version of it on your martials so that opponents are flat-footed against them or as a means to escape a sticky situation.
Knock: Nerfed, but probably not in a terrible way, if you have someone skilled at Thievery in your party. Otherwise, probably useless now.
Magic Mouth: Seems unchanged from PF1E.
Mirror Image: Nerfed to last only one encounter and provide less images overall. Still probably the best defense spell arcane spellcasters have, outside of flying.
Misdirection: Still useful for a few situations.
Obscuring Mist: Heavily nerfed and moved to second level. Somebody on the dev team probably had something bad happen to his character due to this spell. :p
Pest Form: Decent enough for a short infiltration mission. Not long enough duration for something extended, though.
Phantom Steed: Nerfed in the usual terrible way you’d expect with the new heightening rules. It’s now a sixth level spell to get the best benefits.
Resist Energy: Almost nerfed into uselessness, due to the one minute duration. Only at level 13 can you target the entire party and then only if they are perfectly positioned.
See Invisibility: Still useful, with the fifth level version being a clear upgrade. Works best with Glitterdust, although that spell also is much lessened from the days of yore.
Shrink: Lost its combat utility, so only useful in cornercase situations.
Spectral Hand: No more flying hand, now it can only crawl. But the hand at least can get in, deliver the spell and get out decently enough, without triggering reactions. That makes it pretty useful for some of the better touch spells left in the game. Getting the Reach Spell metamagic feat would be even better, though.
Spider Climb: Much nerfed from its prior version. Still useful, but once again it’s obvious that something which felt like a true fantasy element (climbing on ceilings) has been replaced with something mundane (getting a climb speed).
Telekinetic Maneuver: If you somehow get mastery levels of Athletics, this can be a decent spell.
Touch of Idiocy: A decent debuff against spellcasters, with no safe.
Water Breathing: Still very useful when needed and the heightened versions are not too expensive.
Water Walk: Useful in cornercase situations.
Web: Nerfed from PF1E and only semi-useful, due to a success on the save having no secondary negative effects.
Bind Undead: The spell is decent enough if you can get a zombie to spring traps for you. Otherwise, avoid. It doesn’t even heighten, so you are limited to level three undead.
Blindness: A very decent debuff, with a one round effect even on a safe. For optimal usage, delay until the target just had its turn. Probably the best single target debuff spell on the arcane list.
Clairaudience: Nerfed into the ground. Useless for listening to any longer conversation.
Dispel Magic: Now limited to the one-target version. The wording makes it sound as if you can only target specific spell effects now, so no more dispelling a person and fishing in the hopes that you got a good buff.
Dream Message: A decent long-distance message spell. No return message, though, and you got to hope that the target is sleeping if the matter is urgent.
Earthbind: Anti-flying creature spell, useful even on a save. A nice new addition for players.
Enthral l: Hypnotic Pattern under another name. Only single target and third level, though. Definitely a nerf.
Feet to Fins: The short duration makes it only useful on a limited scale for underwater missions. Compared to Water Breathing the duration is a bit of a joke.
Fireball: Since blasting is much less useful in PF2E, this former king of blasting spells rapidly loses its usefulness. Having to cast it at levels where there is much more useful stuff to do feels like a waste of a spell slot, especially because the area where it shines (low level trash mobs) could just as well be done without any danger by the martials and no spell slot wasted.
Ghostly Weapon: Useful for casting on your Fighter against incorporeal opponents. Seems like it is a level too high for its intended use and its duration, though. No heightened mass version makes it a low priority to take over more useful spells.
Haste: Overnerfed. Lost all benefits but the one extra action per round and only works on one group member, until thirteenth level, i.e. half a campaign later. The heightened version should probably be only a fifth level spell. The single target version kinda makes me feel like being the cheerleader for the parties Fighter.
Hypnotic Pattern: Huh, this still exists and can affect multiple creatures and is at the same level as Enthrall? Why does Enthrall again exist?
Invisibility Sphere: A good option for exploring and scouting, although you need to be present. Better invest in getting Stealth!
Levitate: Well, we continue on the trajectory of making everything related to easy movement harder to get and less good.
Lightning Bolt: As all area damage spells, this is suboptimal at a higher level than where you get it.
Locate: Another convenience spell relegated to the Uncommon list. In this case not unreasonably so, since locator spells often destroy investigation type adventures. Otherwise quite a decent spell.
Meld into Stone: This has always been a cornercase spell, so the more limited duration doesn’t hit as hard as it could. But a shame that another infiltration spell has been diminished in its utility.
Mind Reading: Nerfed hard. A one minute duration makes it barely useful. Also on the Uncommon.
Nondetection: Actually seems a bit better than its PF1E counterpart and so deserves its place on the Uncommon list.
Paralyze: A decent save or suck spell, with an okay effect if the target saves. The heightened versions against multiple opponents can be really helpful to avoid encirclement situations, catch fleeing opponents and the like.
Secret Page: This was already a cornercase spell in PF1E and remains so in PF2E. Seems mostly unchanged.
Shrink Item: Useful spell for a few situations where you need to move bulky loot. Keep a scroll around.
Slow: Useful debuff, however as with Haste, the limit to one target hurts it. The heightened version seems one level too high.
Stinking Cloud: Very useful mass debuff, with the usual problem, that moving into the cloud to engage your opponents exposes you to the effect as well.
Vampiric Touch: Has limited appeal at level five, loses that bit of charm very fast when you have to heighten it for better effects.
Wall of Wind: Still an excellent spell versus archers. No complaints.
Aerial Form: Not that bad of a deal. Compared against a same level monster, you got better AC/TAC, however your attack bonus is off by a 20% comparative chance of hitting opponents. Flying helps immensely, of course, but you cannot cast while in your animal form.
Blink: One of the spells which I banned in PF1E, mostly due to its interaction with Mirror Image and Displacement. In this version, you are better off casting Mirror Image, since you probably will only have time for one buff spell, anyway.
Clairvoyance: Actually useful, contrary to Clairaudience. Why? Because you don’t need to have seen the place you create the sensor at. So, if you are sure that there things you want to see behind a closed window? Cast away. Just make sure you can see in adverse conditions like darkness.
Confusion: A good debuff for single target situations. The eight level 10 creatures heightened version is way too high level or there should be a sixth level 5 creatures version in the middle.
Creation: Still a cornercase spell. Seems like a bit of a nerf and a bit of a buff in some aspects.
Detect Scrying: Nerfed to be only useful in its level six heightened version and Uncommon.
Dimension Door: Nerfed to the ground! The obvious crusade against useful transportation magic continues with this much diminished spell. Comically less range? Check. No more passengers? Check. The fifth level version at least restores the range and the “this ends your turn” stipulation is gone. I guess the idea to transport your martials into melee range really was deemed too useful to be allowed to continue. Too bad that chasms are now much more difficult to overcome. Then again, everybody can now climb like Reinhold Messner after a certain level.
Dimensional Anchor: Still useful when cast at the right moment to prevent that pesky teleporting opponent from disappearing. But since the successful save effect only lasts one round, the martials really need to use that opportunity. With to-hit chances at mostly 55% (except for Fighters), that is far from certain.
Discern Lies: Nerfed into the ground AND on the Uncommon list. I mean, the effect doesn’t even appear supernatural anymore, you just get a conditional bonus to Perception vs. lies.
Enervation: An actual really good debuff spell, with a “suck a bit on a save” clause. Although strictly single target. Still, this should definitely be on everyone’s list.
Fire Shield: Not terrible. You’re better off casting another Mirror Image, though. The heightened versions are bad, though.
Fly: Still extremely useful, even in the nerfed versions. Having to wait until level 13 to be able to give out some long-distance flying spells is pretty bad, though. Then again, everybody can climb like a champ now if they are high enough level. Because I always envisioned Raistlin Majere free-climbing like Stallone in Cliffhanger.
Freedom of Movement: Aaaah, this painful. Formerly this was mostly a spell you prepped in advance of going into a dungeon. Now the optimal moment to cast this is when you are already grappled, since the now ubiquitous one minute duration makes being prepared for certain bad situations impossible.
Gaseous Form: Nerfed into near uselessness. Formerly a great infiltration spell (my Tuesday group used this a few times to get into enemy fortresses), now only useful to get into the next room by opening a door from the inside.
Globe of Invulnerability: Much worse than it was before AND on the Uncommon list.
Hallucinatory Terrain: Now on the Uncommon list. Has been nerfed, but not as horribly as, say, Globe of Invulnerability.
Nightmare: Doesn’t do damage anymore, but causes conditions. On the Uncommon list, for some reason.
Outcast’s Curse: A new spell, probably to be used on criminals. Can’t really be used on someone surreptitiously, since you need to cast it on the person and touch them. Maybe the concealed casting options Wizards and Sorcerers get could be used in conjunction, though.
Phantasmal Killer: Still a pretty decent single target spell with a possible insta-kill option if the target rolls really badly. Not terrible.
Private Sanctum: Still as useful as before, as seldomly as one can say that about the new versions of the spells. Of course that means it’s on the Uncommon list.
Resilient Sphere: Quite nerfed, but then again it really was kinda OP in situations. The spell still can be used for action denial, although there are stronger spells for that.
Rope Trick: Like every spell which allows save resting, this has been made Uncommon. And the spell has been nerfed quite a bit. Not much more to say on it.
Shape Stone: For some reason this is now also an attack spell to knock people prone. Still very useful for purposes of building a hideout over time, although the quantity of stone you can affect has been severely diminished.
Solid Fog: As nerfed as Obscuring Mist. I don’t ger it, I guess fog spells really irked someone on the dev team.
Spell Immunity: Also nerfed, in as that Spell Immunity will only try to dispel the named spell as it is being cast on you. At least the duration was left untouched.
Stoneskin: At 20 minutes the spell has a decent duration, but that decreases with every hit you take. Otherwise it probably would last the entire typical adventuring day of PF2E. :p Thankfully, no costly material component anymore.
Suggestion: Still a useful spell, although with a much diminished duration under a normal failure.
Telepathy: Another communication spell which allows, in its sixth level heightened version, to transcend language barriers. Really makes you question what Tongues does that this spell and Comprehend Language don’t.
Veil: The multiple person version of Illusory Disguise. Still pretty good.
Wall of Fire: Nerfed, in that you can’t direct damage anymore to one side. Not worth heightening.
Weapon Storm: Um, yeah. This is probably a spell for a future Magus class? I can’t really say why anyone would otherwise cast this over something like a Fireball. Which already is a suboptimal choice.
Banishment: Essentially still the same spell as before. Still cornercase, unless you specifically know you’ll be dealing with outsiders. Now has a mass version at ninth level.
Black Tentacles: The tentacles are now attackable, so in that way it has been nerfed a lot. However, since Fortitude saves don’t scale by far as crazily for larger creatures as they did in PF1E, it remains useable as an area action denial tool for at least a round. The tentacles get way more easy to hit at higher levels, though.
Chromatic Wall: A lesser version of prismatic wall, with a single color. You need a heightened version at level eight (where you already can get Prismatic Wall…) to get access to all seven colors.
Cloak of Colors: A variant on Fire Shield, with a status effect for the opponent if he hits you and fails his save. Cast Mirror Image instead.
Cloudkill: Now just a damage spell, with bad damage to boot. Good for clearing a room of things which are too stupid to open a door, I guess.
Cone of Cold: The range was nerfed and its damage is worse than an equivalent level Fireball. You can restore the range by adding a third action to it. Still has a great area that way, but blasting is pretty much pointless under the playtest rules, except when you need to clear a room of APL-4 or worse enemies.
Control Water: Oh, so very much nerfed. Before this was a party killer in a room of Omox demons and a pond. Now it only raises or lowers the water by 10 feet. Still applies a debuff on water creatures, so if you know you’ll be fighting water elementals, it actually is pretty good, since the wording suggests the creatures get no saving throw and the area is quite big.
Crushing Despair: A decent area action denial spell. If you can catch various creatures in it, you are likely to prevent some hits on your martials or yourself.
Drop Dead: Mislead, now as a reaction. The duration is nerfed, targets get a Perception check to disbelieve if the hit seems suspicious. Still useful, since it can save a badly hurt party member. On the Uncommon list, so since it is kind of cornercase spell, anyway, this probably will see little use.
Elemental Form: Good AC, bad attack bonus. Decent enough abilities. I guess it can be useful if you are facing something which is very resistant to magic. But you probably will not hit it reliably with the provided attack bonus, then. The same goes for the heightened versions, but the good AC falls off to just being average for its level.
False Vision: Still a nice enough spell for denying scrying attempts. Now on the Uncommon list.
Hallucination: A spell to screw with people, by making them believe things which are not there. Only allows a save if the creature or person seeks or interacts with the subject of the hallucination, so I think there will be people who can come up with scenarios which don’t give that opportunity. Has a long duration and mass versions for the heightened versions.
Illusory Scene: The spell to hold illusory rock concerts returns. Needs the sixth level version to actually include intelligible songs, which is of course strictly optional. :p
Mariner’s Curse: One creature save or suck spell, but needs a touch attack. There are better debuffs.
Mind Probe: A decent interrogation spell if you have someone at your mercy. Should probably not be used against someone famed for being a conman, since the opposed Deception check can actually leave you with completely false information. On the Uncommon list, so the devs probably intent to leave interrogations to skill checks, anyway.
Passwall: Still very useful to get through hard to open doors, by using the surrounding walls. Now Uncommon, because things which upstage the Rogue (who presumably already failed his Thievery check if this spell is necessary) are not allowed anymore for arcane casters.
Prying Eye: Still a decent scouting spell, although the duration and speed of the eye now limits its usefulness. At least is hasn’t been made Uncommon.
Sending: Still the same functionality as before.
Shadow Siphon: A nice counter-damage spells, which works as a reaction. Not guaranteed to work, but it’s another chance to save a badly damaged party member who gets hit by a spell.
Shadow Walk: Still a good transportation spell. Now on the Uncommon list, because faster travel times are bad now.
Telekinetic Haul: A fifth level spell to move one heavy object for one minute. Okay. Presumably useful if you somehow took it over other far more often applicable spells.
Telepathic Bond: Still a great way to communicate in battle or even just have people scouting alone. Greatly increased duration, too. The hard cap of five participants is bad, though, since non-standard party sizes get screwed over. Sadly on the Uncommon list.
Tongues: For some reason this spell does not only still exist when Comprehend Languages has been buffed so much, but is also on the Uncommon list. The duration is even worse than Comprehend Languages, so huh?
Wall of Ice: Still a good area denial spell.
Wall of Stone: Also still excellent area denial, a way to get over chasms, up ledges, etc. The ledge option is less useful now that everyone is a great climber. The option to trap someone under a stone dome has been removed, though
Baleful Polymorph: Another save or suck spell, with a decent action denial component if the initial saves succeeds. Needing a simple Will save to end the effect is kinda bad compared to other save or suck spells, though. Of course nerfed into oblivion from the PF1E version.
Chain Lightning: Another area of effect damage spell, but with the awesome side effect that if there are dozens of opponents the effect only ever ends if someone critically succeeds on a save. This will presumably be nerfed, because theoretically this wipes out entire armies in one cast. Otherwise the same caveats apply as to all blasting if PF2E, i.e. don’t bother.
Collective Transposition: This can be good to move your allies into position. Since the outcome is uncertain with an unwilling target, moving your guys around is probably the better option.
Disintegrate: Still the ultimate door opener and a good way to carve out your villain lair over time. The damage is okay and not as terrible on a failed save. Presumably still useful damage if you cast it at higher levels. One of the few okay blasting spells, especially for the added utility factor.
Dominate: Still pretty okay and if the target makes its save at least it got an action denied by the spell. On the Uncommon list, presumably because the spell cheesed off so many people in the past ten years. Seriously unnecessary given all the nerfs it has gotten. Also, the reduced duration s makes the Runelords kinda unfeasible, who were really into dominating giants. Then again, I’m not sure how arcane casters can be expected to have built empires under the new spells paradigm of PF2E, anyway. I presume that the retcon is that they just simply beat up lower-level people physically.
Dragon Form: A combat form with okay AC and attacks (a bit worse than equivalent level creatures), but with a breath attack and a fast flying speed. The heightened eight level version actually gives you an AC and attack bonus equivalent to most monsters at that level, which is a first for polymorph spells so far. Decent enough for one combat where damage is more necessary than magical assistance.
Feeblemind: Now sixth level, nerfed into the ground and strictly an anti-caster spell. Touch of Idiocy with Spectral Hand / Reach Spell is probably a better way to make an important caster enemy less effective.
Flesh to Stone: Only useful if you can reliably make someone fail their saves. Otherwise there are less expensive spells in terms of spell levels to slow an opponent (or multiple ones later on).
Mislead: Ah, this spell still exists, so Drop Dead is actually a totally original new spell to save someone else. As you can imagine, this spell also got nerfed, but the nerfs are not totally terrible. Having to use concentration to keep it up makes it way less effective, though.
Phantasmal Calamity: Another area of effect damage spells, with a debuff on the very unlikely critical failure. As with almost all AOE spells, avoid for something useful.
Purple Worm Sting: A touch spell for decent damage and conditional on the target not saving a nice continued poison effect, which both damages and debuffs the target. Decent enough, but the minor damage if the target saves is not really that good vs. a debuff on a save spell. Of which there are plenty at lower levels.
Repulsion: Has a much reduced area, but still actually does at least something of a successful save against it. Not that bad. Mirror Image still is better as your one-stop-for-all spell to cast at the start of a combat.
Scrying: I guess the devs had enough of “scry and die” war stories on the forum. Not sure why it had to be on the Uncommon list, given that it explicitly doesn’t work with Teleport.
Spellwrack: Presumably, this is a spell which is intended to work against people buffing themselves in combat. Given that most buff spells only last one minute and people normally have something better to do in combat than cast buffs for three rounds, this seems like something you would only seldomly find useful.
Teleport: Much nerfed from its prior version. At least there is no rolling percentages anymore everytime to see if something bad happens. And of course it is on the Uncommon list. I kinda detect a bias against easy travel methods. Also, the hard cap on people who can be transported is terrible for non-standard size parties, especially with the more limited spells per day.
True Seeing: Lost its expensive component. Nerfed duration, nerfed effect. A See Invisibility is actually way better for the purpose of seeing invisible creatures, since it has no fail chance.
Vampiric Exsanguination: Actually a decent AOE effect, since it gives you back HP. The damage component is kinda low, but still good enough if you need an emergency heal at the cost of the opponents.
Vibrant Pattern: Mass blindness, but only in the area and only on a failed save. Probably save to skip.
Wall of Force: As usual much nerfed from its predecessor. Wall of Stone is a cheaper area denial spell alternative.
Contingency: Well, this is now the way to get at least two buffs up on you during a combat. Of course it is on the Uncommon list and it needs to be heightened for expanded spell levels.
Dimensional Lock: Despite a duration nerf, this spell actually has an expanded area and is at a lower level than before. But Uncommon, so not all is good.
Duplicate Foe: Copies a same-level opponent, which can be good if what you want to do is add a flanking partner or a competent martial. The duration is okay even if the enemy saves, so this seems worth a spell slot.
Energy Aegis: A long-duration multiple energy resistance with curiously low values for its level. Really not that good, except if you walk through a constant low-damage scenario.
Fiery Body: A very decent self-buff spell, since it includes flight and, if I read the wording correctly, you can use Produce Flame three times per round. Not a bad deal at all. Probably a replacement for Mirror Image and Fly at only thirteenth level.
Leng’s Sting: Another poison touch spell. Once again, since the effect on a successful save is not that good, I’d recommend a cheaper debuff. Decent enough if you don’t fear going into melee and want to deliver a combined damage + possible debuff.
Magnificent Mansion: Of course now on the Uncommon list, since it was a fun spell which provided more comfortable adventuring at higher levels. At least the spell effect hasn’t been changed.
Mask of Terror: A buff spell to conditionally apply a negative condition to people who attack the target of the spell. Decent enough to put on the tank.
Plane Shift: Not nerfed, so of course on the Uncommon list.
Power Word Blind: Wow, a spell which actually does something rad without a save. So, of course, it’s on the Uncommon list.
Prismatic Spray: Has a reduced area, but can still be good if the target fails it save. Still much nerfed from PF1E, where it was probably the best attack spell at its level.
Project Image: Much nerfed from before. Higher lever, lower duration (except when heightened to a ninth level spell) and it ends if the image receives a single point of damage.
Reverse Gravity: Aside from the reduced area of effect, this spell is still the same. So of course it is on the Uncommon list.
Spell Turning: Reduced duration and a conditional effect now (needs a successful dispel check). On the Uncommon list.
Warp Mind: Confusion at spell level seven. Cast Confusion instead. Save the spell slot for something which is actually a clear improvement instead of kind of a side-grade.
Antimagic Field: Nerfed from before and on the Uncommon list. Well, I never saw it cast by an arcane caster, anyway. Who wants to nerf himself and have to move into melee range of the people you want to debuff?
Disappearance: A better Invisibility with a decent duration. Good enough for a short scout mission or to cast on the Fighter so that he can get the advantage of a permanently flat-footed opponent.
Discern Location: A mostly unnerfed divination spell. I can see why that one is on the Uncommon list.
Dream Council: Long term communication on a planetary scale. This is actually good and not even on the Uncommon list. You better send a Sending to the persons you want to talk to, though, most people react badly to falling asleep while cooking. ^^
Earthquake: Now for arcane casters as well. Still pretty good, but there are cheaper debuff spells. Probably best used to collapse structures.
Horrid Wilting: Bad for anything but killing armies of weak living creatures, for which it is great. There is no area except the range, so presumably you can kill everything in a one kilometer area centered on you. That probably will get nerfed.
Maze: Removes a target from the fight for at least one round, but it’s already a 50/50 chance that it comes right back at the level you get the spell and gets worse every level after that.
Mind Blank: Still a great spell. Of course now on the Uncommon list, because good things are for Fighters, Clerics and Rogues.
Monstrosity Form: Yeah, this is bad. You get bad AC and attacks for your level. Use heightened Dragon Form instead.
Polar Ray: An okay damage spell, which applies a decent debuff.
Power Word Stun: Great spell, but of course on the Uncommon list, because it is good.
Prismatic Wall: Still a decent spell.
Scintillating Pattern: Terrible spell. Nothing happens on a successful save. You are better off using a heightened Confusion spell.
Uncontrollable Dance: An excellent action denial spell, with an almost guaranteed effect. Touch range, though, so cast your Spectral Hand before or get Reach Spell.
Unrelenting Observation: I guess this spell is useful to give everybody a See Invisibility effect and, of course, for the intended purpose of tracking a creature. Not that impressive for a level eight spell, IMO.
Disjunction: Only useful now for dispelling one magic item. Also on the Uncommon list, for whatever reason. Nerfed into uselessness.
Foresight: A nice enough buff spell, but the effect is something which in the last edition would have been good presumably at fifth level.
Implosion: Wow, an actual good spell. A one minute damage spell in which you have to choose a new target each round. Presumably that wording works with two creatures, where you can switch back each second round.
Meteor Swarm: A decent enough AOE spell. Given that opponents at this level have on average 300 HP, it kinda falls off, except of course against many weak enemies.
Power Word Kill: Useless, since it only works against quite weaker enemies than your EL when you get it. On the Uncommon list.
Prismatic Sphere: The spell still has to deal with its usual problem, you can’t see through it yourself. Otherwise still a decent defense spell.
Resplendent Mansion: The ostentatious Magnificent Mansion, where you need to actually place it in the real world. Nice enough since you can have it stay permanently, until your rival archmage decides to have a laugh and dispel your home. Interestingly, this spell is not on the Uncommon list.
Shapechange: Great, this spell presumes that you already know lower level polymorph spells. I guess nobody thought of the Sorcerer spells known limitations? Also, nerfed into the ground in all terms of its abilities.
Weird: An actually worse version of Phantasmal Killer, only for multiple targets. Now has no effect on a successful save. Avoid.
Gate: Now only works as a transport spell to another plane, no more calling powerful allies.
Time Stop: Well, if you managed to get until here in your adventuring career, you now have the privilege of actually being able to buff yourself with multiple spells before the fight is over! Congratulations, you might now be one third as good as a similar Sorcerer/Wizard/Arcanist from last edition! Probably not, though.
Wish: Of course this ultimate spell, which you get at the last level of your adventuring career, is nerfed from its prior version. Kinda makes a fitting capstone for this exploration of what options arcane spellcasters have, then.
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Very well thought out analysis. Any chance you can do the same for the other lists?
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You're not wrong, but it doesn't bother me quite as much as you.
Now do the rituals, where the Arcana skill does the least of any magic skill.
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I mostly concur with you on these matters. The magic has been sucked out of Pathfinder 2, and this is far and away my biggest concern with the current state of the rules.
I think the problems with the Sorcerer go beyond spells, though. It's just a terrible class currently, with way too few class features. I'd agree that there is no point in playing an Arcane Sorcerer over a Wizard... or for that matter an Occult Sorcerer over a bard... or a Divine Sorcerer over a Cleric... or a Primal Sorcerer over a Druid.
I don't have time to go through your comments for all spells (though I nod in agreement as I go), but here are two points you've missed on the first level list:
Air Bubble: This has been nerfed from a short-duration underwater exploration spell and protection against inhaled gases, into a sort of Feather Fall for people who cannot breathe underwater. I’m not sure if the duration of one minute is enough to fulfil the intended purpose. Definitely another case of a too harsh nerf for a pretty harmless spell.
You've actually missed the worst part of this spell: there's a catch-22 that makes it impossible to cast! The spell can only be cast as a reaction after you're submerged, but requires a verbal action as part of the casting. To cast a spell with a verbal action underwater, you'd need to be under the effect of a spell like air bubble... oops?
Command: Nerfed from its PF1E version. It’s a 50/50 toss-up if it does nothing against same level challenges.
It's actually worse than that. The PF1 version prevented you from doing actions contrary to the command on your next turn. If you were ordered to drop prone, you couldn't get back up. This clause isn't in the spell in PF2, so if you order the target to drop prone they can just get back up with the second action. If you order an enemy to stand still, they waste their first action but can then move towards you with their second. In other words, the enemy is now free to completely negate any tactical advantage you gain with this spell so all it does is cost them actions.
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I was actually going to start a project of going back over the magic chapter a 3rd time and assessing every single spell in post form, so I'm glad I checked here and saw you already did it. XD
I pretty much uniformly agree with your assessments. I'm especially bothered by the guillotine to "fun" and "quality of life" spells. What was wrong with Prestidigitation? That was what made a wizard a wizard. :(
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Very well thought out analysis. Any chance you can do the same for the other lists?
I fear I'm kinda burned out for a while. Doing the statistical analysis took me six hours. Doing the spell list analysis another 10 hours. And about four hours composing the post, proofreading it and editing all for the board.
Besides, I am good with the arcane spell list, I am by far not as good with the divine, "primal" and "occult" spell lists. Better someone do that who has really played those classes a lot.
You're not wrong, but it doesn't bother me quite as much as you.
Now do the rituals, where the Arcana skill does the least of any magic skill.
I really didn't count the rituals against the arcane list, sorry. As I said, I need a big break. :)
I mostly concur with you on these matters. The magic has been sucked out of Pathfinder 2, and this is far and away my biggest concern with the current state of the rules.
I think the problems with the Sorcerer go beyond spells, though. It's just a terrible class currently, with way too few class features. I'd agree that there is no point in playing an Arcane Sorcerer over a Wizard... or for that matter an Occult Sorcerer over a bard... or a Divine Sorcerer over a Cleric... or a Primal Sorcerer over a Druid.
Yes. The new "spells don't scale" design just destroyed the biggest appeal of the class, which was their flexibility. Two spells per day which can be heightened really don't cut it.
Thanks for pointing out that I even missed how some spells don't even work. ;)
I was actually going to start a project of going back over the magic chapter a 3rd time and assessing every single spell in post form, so I'm glad I checked here and saw you already did it. XD
I pretty much uniformly agree with your assessments. I'm especially bothered by the guillotine to "fun" and "quality of life" spells. What was wrong with Prestidigitation? That was what made a wizard a wizard. :(
Apparently some people on the messageboards conveyed their worry about the financial welfare of washerwomen on Golarion. Or something like that. I really don't know, it is one of those cases where one starts to believe that the developers had to reach a nerf quota to hand in.
Just wanted to point out that Feather Fall is actually much much worse since it's single target now. You never really needed a full minute of falling (unless you're falling a ridiculously large distance), it was really helpful to eventually allow the whole party to get down a large cliff/hole without worrying about fall damage.
I probably missed a ton of nerfs which I therefore didn't even mention. That's the problem when going through a few hundred spells one after another.
I have only read the cantrips and 1st level spells and I generally agree with your conclusions. Only exception is that I think burning hands is one of the best AOE damage spells. It has the same damage as the 3rd level fireball but on a smaller area.
Doing an analysis of PFe2 compared to PFe2 spells is pretty pointless.
If you actually want to make a convincing argument you need to do a comparison between the capabilities of the different classes of PFe2.
I also think your are totally wrong about blasting. But I have not had the time to do a detailed analysis.
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I have only read the cantrips and 1st level spells and I generally agree with your conclusions. Only exception is that I think burning hands is one of the best AOE damage spells. It has the same damage as the 3rd level fireball but on a smaller area.
It deals 2d6 at first level and 6d6 at third level... it is literally a worse Fireball. So not sure why that makes it better for you.
Doing an analysis of PFe2 compared to PFe2 spells is pretty pointless.
If you actually want to make a convincing argument you need to do a comparison between the capabilities of the different classes of PFe2.
I also think your are totally wrong about blasting. But I have not had the time to do a detailed analysis.
It's basically impossible to expect that from people who come from First Edition. Seriously, tell me, if one likes casters in PF1E, what argument does anybody here who likes PF2E have to convince them to like that their favorite classes got nerfed in about every respect? "But muh balance!" is a pretty poor argument to create excitement in that situation, isn't it?
Also, mathematically blasting is 100% assuredly much worse off in PF2E than in PF1E, where you could build an excellent blaster with the core rules alone (Spell Perfection from the APG helped a bit, though). You have much worse chances to make an enemy fail its save and the damage is also mathematically much worse than in the first edition.
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One thing I'll note is that as of the errata Glyph of Warding is on every spell list, and it works nicely for Wizards, even if it's not that useful for PCs. Cheap, reliable, permanent spell traps to secure your belongings and defensible locations. Not worth two spell slots on the same day you expect to have it triggered, however.
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It's basically impossible to expect that from people who come from First Edition. Seriously, tell me, if one likes casters in PF1E, what argument does anybody here who likes PF2E have to convince them to like that their favorite classes got nerfed in about every respect?
I'd be willing to bet that the powerful magic of Pathfinder 1 is a key attraction of the system for many players. Whether you're the sorcerer who wields that magic or the fighter who is overcoming it, the world-changing magic of Pathfinder is a huge part of the experience. Seeing that sapped away is disheartening, and doesn't feel like the game we've known.
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I disagree a bit with your distaste for spells being uncommon. I think that the rarity system gives a really nice way for DMs to give casters meaningful rewards, which I didn't feel was really the case before. You are then subjected to your DM's judgement about which heavily world-affecting spells they want you to have access to, but that should probably be the case anyway.
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ive built boths orc and wizard dabbled with both, i find the sorc over shadows wizard, they get the same amount of spels, cast spontaneously, get the spells at the same level, can change spell list based upon bloodline. they use charisma as aprimary stat which is also the resonance stat. wizards use intel.and have to bite it on resonance. wizards get less skill points per level. less weapon pros.
from what ive seen all the elements that made the wizard different from the sorc in pf1e have been removed.
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ive built boths orc and wizard dabbled with both, i find the sorc over shadows wizard, they get the same amount of spels, cast spontaneously, get the spells at the same level, can change spell list based upon bloodline
Wizard get an additional spell slot at every level thanks to their arcane school, plus the ability to spontaneously refresh one spell slot every day with their arcane focus for some pseudo-spontaneous casting. So yes, Wizards do get more spell slots per day than the Sorcerer. If you like spontaneous casting, you can go universalist since they effectively get one spontaneous spell slot per spell level which effectively lets them play as prepared/spontaneous hybrids. Sorcerers are objectively inferior to wizards as arcane spellcasters; wizards have more spells, are prepared spellcasters, and even have the option to dabble in spontaneous spellcasting. They've completely trampled over the sorcerer's niche. The comparison most egregious at 1st, where a Wizard has 3 spell slots to a Sorcerer's 2, and can spontaneously duplicate one of them.
The spontaneous heightening rules are very unfavorable to sorcerers, but beyond that they now have to actually learn some of their spells in the same way a wizard does. Sorcerers can't simply learn uncommon spells naturally, and must study them through arcana checks in the same way a wizard does. This is still an intelligence-based check, and due to the way DC's scale in PF2 this makes it incredibly difficult for a Sorcerer to succeed these checks. Contrary to their name, uncommon spells aren't actually that uncommon and there are a lot of staple spells that I'd just expect a high level party to have access to in there, like teleport, which means if the dice rolls aren't with you Sorcerers could be delayed several levels in learning these spells compared to their wizard brethren which have an easier time with studying them.
To add insult to injury, wizards also gets more class feats than the sorcerer, eight instead of six.
If you choose one of the spell lists other than arcane, you're then comparing against other classes; Bards, Clerics, and Druids. Sorcerers compare just as poorly against all of them as they do against wizard. The wizard comparison just comes more naturally due to their PF1 similarity and having numerous class feats in common.
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Thanks for the work magnus!
<...>
I wish they increased the damage of cantrips. They start out fine in comparison to the group damage on first level but once the party reaches level 3 and the other partymembers start using magic weapons, you fall behind a lot with your cantrips. The heightened variants should be heightened on characterlevel and not on spellevel to keep up with the rest of the party.
Oh, geeze, I didn't even realize that and thought they were based on character level. Yeah, that makes them much worse than I thought.
I disagree a bit with your distaste for spells being uncommon. I think that the rarity system gives a really nice way for DMs to give casters meaningful rewards, which I didn't feel was really the case before. You are then subjected to your DM's judgement about which heavily world-affecting spells they want you to have access to, but that should probably be the case anyway.
Dasrak addresses some of the problems with that concept. We are not talking about spells which were uncommon before in the world... stuff like Teleport, Tongues, Scry and so on were spells which arcane casters commonly took. Now suddenly they have been made uncommon for no good reason. And it screws over Sorcerers even worse than Wizards, again for no good reason.
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ive built boths orc and wizard dabbled with both, i find the sorc over shadows wizard, they get the same amount of spels, cast spontaneously, get the spells at the same level, can change spell list based upon bloodlineWizard get an additional spell slot at every level thanks to their arcane school, plus the ability to spontaneously refresh one spell slot every day with their arcane focus for some pseudo-spontaneous casting. So yes, Wizards do get more spell slots per day than the Sorcerer. If you like spontaneous casting, you can go universalist since they effectively get one spontaneous spell slot per spell level which effectively lets them play as prepared/spontaneous hybrids. Sorcerers are objectively inferior to wizards as arcane spellcasters; wizards have more spells, are prepared spellcasters, and even have the option to dabble in spontaneous spellcasting. They've completely trampled over the sorcerer's niche. The comparison most egregious at 1st, where a Wizard has 3 spell slots to a Sorcerer's 2, and can spontaneously duplicate one of them.
Except for the Wizard specialists' single spell arcane focus recall, Sorcerers have the exact same number of spells per day as Wizards. Wizards get an extra spell per level from specialization or the Universalist arcane focus, Sorcerers get an extra spell per level from their bloodline. See the asterisk statement at the bottom of Table 3-20 on page 129.
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[ We are not talking about spells which were uncommon before in the world... stuff like Teleport, Tongues, Scry and so on were spells which arcane casters commonly took. Now suddenly they have been made uncommon for no good reason.
They're uncommon for an obvious reason - they completely avoided narrative obstacles (diplomacy/interpretation with strange creatures when you haven't invested in their languages, long distance travel, inflitration and investigation/spying missions, etc.) and they want skill investment to matter and for GMs to be able to design encounters that require role playing, overcoming challenges, and not just pressing an "I win" magic button that requires unrealistic or frustrating countermeasures.
Now instead of taking away a huge range of challenges that GMs can offer after a certain level, the GM can decide whether or not to give the PCs the tools to overcome those challenges.
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[ We are not talking about spells which were uncommon before in the world... stuff like Teleport, Tongues, Scry and so on were spells which arcane casters commonly took. Now suddenly they have been made uncommon for no good reason.They're uncommon for an obvious reason - they completely avoided narrative obstacles (diplomacy/interpretation with strange creatures when you haven't invested in their languages, long distance travel, inflitration and investigation/spying missions, etc.) and they want skill investment to matter and for GMs to be able to design encounters that require role playing, overcoming challenges, and not just pressing an "I win" magic button that requires unrealistic or frustrating countermeasures.
Now instead of taking away a huge range of challenges that GMs can offer after a certain level, the GM can decide whether or not to give the PCs the tools to overcome those challenges.
Those spells have been a common part of D&D since before 3.0 came out 17 years ago. And now suddenly they always have been bad and poor helpless GM's were calling for their nerfing or removal for all that time?
Yeah, this opens up a few avenues for GM's to force players to do long travels or play out long interrogation sessions (and boy, won't that be fun for many people...), but it doesn't substantially improve the game, IMO. And the price for that is that it takes an important role away from arcane casters, making them that less useful to the party.
Also, Comprehend Languages actually works almost as good as Tongues, is common and therefore makes Tongues being on the Uncommon list doubly baffling, like I pointed out in the spell list review.
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Except for the Wizard specialists' single spell arcane focus recall, Sorcerers have the exact same number of spells per day as Wizards. Wizards get an extra spell per level from specialization or the Universalist arcane focus, Sorcerers get an extra spell per level from their bloodline. See the asterisk statement at the bottom of Table 3-20 on page 129.
... If literally every sorcerer gets those bonus slots, why isn't it just built into the table in the first place? Kinda makes the entire table useless, if you ask me. Well, at any rate, that helps. Sorcerers having 33%-50% more spells definitely makes a lot of sense, though for all the other reasons above they're still weaker than wizards. Giving them access to uncommon spells without having to learn them and just letting them spontaneously heighten spells at will would probably close the gap.
They're uncommon for an obvious reason - they completely avoided narrative obstacles (diplomacy/interpretation with strange creatures when you haven't invested in their languages, long distance travel, inflitration and investigation/spying missions, etc.)
I completely disagree. Being able to overcome problems that were formerly difficult for you is a natural part of character growth in Pathfinder, and spellcasters overcome their problems with magic. Taking this away essentially pulls a substantial part of the character growth of spellcasters. You could well create a game system where such powers don't exist, or are incredibly rare, but that wouldn't be Pathfinder. High-level characters with the right tools for the job should be able to trivialize problems; it's okay to be a world-changing power at these levels, and to a degree it's actually a problem if you aren't. If there was a problem in PF1, it's that non-spellcasters didn't get a similar growth in the breadth of their abilities and could easily fall behind the expectations.
Now, if you want to play a game without teleportation or tongues or scrying that's fine. Nothing has ever stopped you from doing that. But for the rest of us, we now have rules that designate an entire class of staple spells as "uncommon", and all classes now need to go through the same motions as wizards when learning such spells. This has eroded one of the key advantages of the sorcerer and spontaneous casters in general: that he doesn't need to seek out his magic.
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Very good work magnuskn.
I hope your impressive work will be acknowledged by the devs and lead to the necessary changes that need to happen.
Thank you. I don't really expect a dev to post in this thread, especially since I did not manage to keep the salt completely out of my big spell breakdown post (seriously, it's impossible to not feel mounting despair when you go through 200+ nerfs one. After. Another!).
Also, as I said, this is my last hail mary already this early in the playtest to change the minds of the developers, since reading through all the changes and constant nerfs to everything makes it clear that they decidedly want a lower powered game than what we've had with the 3.X skeleton which PF1E is built on. I disagree and I hope the work I put in gives my disagreement a bit of legitimacy. But in the end, I am sure that it will only be if the actual playtest feedback is so overwhelmingly negative in the surveys that their fundamental opinion could be swayed.
So, I am already starting to put aside the 500 Euros I mentioned, which will go to 8 hardcovers I am missing and several pawn collections for AP's I already have... I put aside the idea of getting Mummy's Mask, since even after the four AP's I really still want to run, I have five more I could do. Which would take me at the usual pace a total of 13,5 years... so well into the release of Pathfinder 3E, featuring the return of the 3.X skeleton. ;)
OR maybe I am wrong and I my post managed to reach the ear of the developers and changes will soon be announced. I can dream, after all. ^^
And well said Dasrak and Bjorn Rorvik about Uncommon spells.
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This one is a silly point to bring up, but I bring it up because I have used it extensively in the playtest so far:
Telekinetic Projectile: This is a decent nuke spell, but it depends on your GM being nice and giving you stuff to throw at your opponents. If you don’t have a nice GM, always bring several bags of small rocks, razors and needles with you. This is probably the best single target cantrip against targets with physical weaknesses (like zombies).
There is not a single forest, hillside slope, excavated tunnel... hell, PARKING LOT that I can walk through where I cannot find small, unattended objects to throw, whether there be sticks, stones, small hunks of asphalt, pebbles, loose bricks, etc. Plus, there's nothing to suggest it can't be the same projectile every single casting of the spell. If a GM argued this with me, we'd have to be either in the Astral or Ethereal Plane, or floating in the middle of the ocean to not be able to use this spell. :)
I don't have much to comment on the relative power levels of the spells, as I haven't been through the higher level playtests yet, and I am playing a Wizard, so I imagine I will have more to say at that point. I was popping off goblin warriors left and right with TK Projectile, though. :)
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This one is a silly point to bring up, but I bring it up because I have used it extensively in the playtest so far:
Telekinetic Projectile: This is a decent nuke spell, but it depends on your GM being nice and giving you stuff to throw at your opponents. If you don’t have a nice GM, always bring several bags of small rocks, razors and needles with you. This is probably the best single target cantrip against targets with physical weaknesses (like zombies).There is not a single forest, hillside slope, excavated tunnel... hell, PARKING LOT that I can walk through where I cannot find small, unattended objects to throw, whether there be sticks, stones, small hunks of asphalt, pebbles, loose bricks, etc. Plus, there's nothing to suggest it can't be the same projectile every single casting of the spell. If a GM argued this with me, we'd have to be either in the Astral or Ethereal Plane, or floating in the middle of the ocean to not be able to use this spell. :)
I don't have much to comment on the relative power levels of the spells, as I haven't been through the higher level playtests yet, and I am playing a Wizard, so I imagine I will have more to say at that point. I was popping off goblin warriors left and right with TK Projectile, though. :)
Well, I wouldn't count on all GM's conceding that eminently reasonable point of yours about debris being all around us. Some GM's like to be contrarians, after all. ;)
And as someone pointed out upthread, cantrips fall off steeply compared to standard weapon attacks later in the game. I even read it wrong and somehow assumed that you'd get your best cantrip attack already at level 9, instead of level 17... which is why I mistakenly rated them so favorably in the first place.
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Thank you Magnuskn for your intensive work on this. I had not really looked closely at Spider Climb until I read your posts on this thread, and it got me thinking. Spider Climb is a classic D&D spell from the start. In the 1st through 3rd editions of D&D, and 5th edition and PF1, Spider Climb explicitly allows the caster to walk on ceilings, like a spider. How cool is that? That's a great combat tactic, it's visually exciting, it can provide interesting role-playing moments, and walking on ceilings is delightfully FUN. 4th edition D&D's version of Spider Climb instead said that once per encounter "you move with a climb speed equal to your speed." In PF2 Playtest, Spider Climb says that for 10 minutes "the target gains a climb Speed of 25 feet." Other than the duration, the similarity is stunning. Keep in mind, a climb speed does not allow a creature to walk on ceilings, so that super fun & central aspect of that spell is gone. I view that tiny example as a microcosm for some of the characteristics of the Playtest version of the rules that troubles me. I never detested 4th edition, but it was abandoned for good reasons, and this is another example of the formulaic similarities between the two systems.
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If you actually want to make a convincing argument you need to do a comparison between the capabilities of the different classes of PFe2.
Not really, because this isn't a complaint about class balance. It's about game style preference.
Balanced classes?
Awesome casters?
Realistic martials?
Pick two, because you can't have all three.
PF1 is an awesome casters, realistic martials game. The class balance is pretty bad (if we compare, say, the variety of problems that a mid-level cleric and wizard and druid could handle, compared to the problems that a fighter and rogue and barbarian could handle). Though there are ways to work around that.
If we try to fix the class balance by giving martials narrative abilities that are comparable to a Wizard ("A level 3 Wizard can turn invisible, so a level 3 Rogue should easily be able to hide in plain sight. A level 5 Wizard can fly over a mountain, so a level 5 Fighter should get to jump over a mountain."), we lose realism.
If we reduce the abilities of casters until they no longer overshadow martials, we gain class balance, but casters lose their awesomeness. (This seems to be the direction PF2 has moved in.)
Whichever approach Paizo takes, they're going to disappoint some people:
"Wizards aren't fun any more!"
Or:
"What's the point of making a new edition if caster/martial imbalance still hasn't been fixed?"
Or:
"These new Fighters are too anime!"
Or they could attempt to compromise in the middle, but that probably just leaves a game that everyone finds vaguely disappointing...
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As for me, I fall squarely down on the side of "make martial classes more awesome!", since high level D&D/PF has always come down on the side of being "anime". A 18th level fighter is able to kill colossal dragons by hitting their toes really really hard, after all.
However, since the game has always been a team effort, I think casters should still be the ones giving out Fly spells to normal martials, until martials get their own magic items to do the same. If characters are completely self-sufficient, then the team aspect is kind of lost.
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I am ok with all the magic nerfs. the goal of this edition is to allow the game to be played at all levels. the truth is, most of those spells on the uncommon list broke the game. so I am ok with that. I don't agree that blasting is nerfed. damage got nerfed across the board for all characters, barbarians, ranger, fighter , rogue, monk all had their damage potential reduced quite a bit.so in blasting spells are actually quite good now in this edition. if this were a fighting game, you would say that casters got normalized, more so than nerfed.
.
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@Matthew Downie
I, quite recently, had a revelation and changed my mind regarding the following idea:
"If we try to fix the class balance by giving martials narrative abilities that are comparable to a Wizard ... "
I used to think that this should happen. Because nerfing the wizard killed fun, and obviously these characters should interact with the narrative.
Then I realized that myself, and other veteran players I know, never had a problem influencing the plot as a martial. I realized that classes were a much smaller part of characters than my armchair designer self thought.
I realized that my Moist-Von-Lipvig inspired arcanist had more influence via her personality, sleight of hand, and bluff, than from being an Arcanist.
I've played a seperate wizard to 6th level without even casting a spell, them having a focus on weapons. They had possibly the most impact out of the group, largely based on their background.
I see players warping the narrative with a single trained skill (one recently skipped an entire dungeon with perform: dance), racial feats, magic items, etc, very often. The reason martials never have an issue in my game is that there are so many other facets to a character.
To get back to the topic. I love spells being big and impactful, and feel these nerfs are the wrong approach. I think shoehorning too much narrative focus into martials is also the wrong approach. Awesome skills, magic items, racial options, background options, and the social links and personality players build into their characters should be the martial's toolkit. I've yet to see that approach fail in my PF1.
I hope they enable it in PF2 by making master/legendary skills as good as advertised, making magic items awesome and not underwhelming or penned in by resonance, and giving interesting higher-level racial options. I hope that's how they help martials be relevant. Not by making casters less fun.
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Being able to overcome problems that were formerly difficult for you is a natural part of character growth in Pathfinder, and spellcasters overcome their problems with magic. Taking this away essentially pulls a substantial part of the character growth of spellcasters. You could well create a game system where such powers don't exist, or are incredibly rare, but that wouldn't be Pathfinder. High-level characters with the right tools for the job should be able to trivialize problems; it's okay to be a world-changing power at these levels, and to a degree it's actually a problem if you aren't.
It wouldn't be Pathfinder 1, that's for sure...
But my preference is for a game where interesting problems are not trivialized as soon as you hit level 9, to the extent that stories have to be rewritten to accommodate it:
Week 1:
GM: "You must fight your way out of the slave-pits of Khazar..."
Wizard: "Teleport."
Week 2:
GM: "You have been hired to carry a valuable cargo across the perilous Sea of Scimitars..."
Wizard: "Teleport."
Week 3:
GM: "You must rescue the priestess from the city prison..."
Wizard: "Teleport."
Week 4:
GM: "It's a race against time! Can you bring the priestess to the temple in time to prevent the ritual? The Bladehawks will be trying to thwart you at every step!"
Wizard: "Teleport."
Week 5:
GM: "You must cross the Plains of Desolation and cast the evil artefact into the Bottomless Pit."
Wizard: "Teleport."
Week 6+:
GM: "There is a dungeon full of monsters. You must kill them all."
Wizard: "Finally, a challenge worthy of my skills!"
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As for me, I fall squarely down on the side of "make martial classes more awesome!"
I am ok with all the magic nerfs.
I love spells being big and impactful, and feel these nerfs are the wrong approach. I think shoehorning too much narrative focus into martials is also the wrong approach.
These consecutive posts have reinforced my belief that there are three conflicting preferences at work here. ("Make martials less mundane" versus "Restricted casters" versus "A bit of narrative disparity is harmless".)
for no good reason.
Um. There may in fact be "no good reason", but until we hear from the devs on this question I would not rule out the possibility that they have one.
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I am ok with all the magic nerfs. the goal of this edition is to allow the game to be played at all levels. the truth is, most of those spells on the uncommon list broke the game. so I am ok with that. I don't agree that blasting is nerfed. damage got nerfed across the board for all characters, barbarians, ranger, fighter , rogue, monk all had their damage potential reduced quite a bit.so in blasting spells are actually quite good now in this edition. if this were a fighting game, you would say that casters got normalized, more so than nerfed.
I disagree that magic nerfs across the board were necessary to make the game "playable at all levels". There was plenty of design space to balance the game around higher damage totals and a higher power level for martials at higher levels as well.
To get back to the topic. I love spells being big and impactful, and feel these nerfs are the wrong approach. I think shoehorning too much narrative focus into martials is also the wrong approach. Awesome skills, magic items, racial options, background options, and the social links and personality players build into their characters should be the martial's toolkit. I've yet to see that approach fail in my PF1.
I hope they enable it in PF2 by making master/legendary skills as good as advertised, making magic items awesome and not underwhelming or penned in by resonance, and giving interesting higher-level racial options. I hope that's how they help martials be relevant. Not by making casters less fun.
All of this! :)
But my preference is for a game where interesting problems are not trivialized as soon as you hit level 9, to the extent that stories have to be rewritten to accommodate it:
Week 1:
GM: "You must fight your way out of the slave-pits of Khazar..."
Wizard: "Teleport."Week 2:
GM: "You have been hired to carry a valuable cargo across the perilous Sea of Scimitars..."
Wizard: "Teleport."Week 3:
GM: "You must rescue the priestess from the city prison..."
Wizard: "Teleport."Week 4:
GM: "It's a race against time! Can you bring the priestess to the temple in time to prevent the ritual? The Bladehawks will be trying to thwart you at every step!"
Wizard: "Teleport."Week 5:
GM: "You must cross the Plains of Desolation and cast the evil artefact into the Bottomless Pit."
Wizard: "Teleport."Week 6+:
GM: "There is a dungeon full of monsters. You must kill them all."
Wizard: "Finally, a challenge worthy of my skills!"
There are plenty of ways to make "Teleport" fail and adventure paths have described about all of them. In a world where teleportation is common, countermeasures to it are common as well. So I think your argument is a bit of a strawman.
Um. There may in fact be "no good reason", but until we hear from the devs on this question I would not rule out the possibility that they have one.
Yeah, well. Since we are one month into the release of the playtest and the developers have chosen to address criticism pretty sparsely, I'll allow myself to speculate as long as they choose to not participate.
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There are plenty of ways to make "Teleport" fail and adventure paths have described about all of them. In a world where teleportation is common, countermeasures to it are common as well. So I think your argument is a bit of a strawman.
In our group it was Plane Shift for getting close, then Wind Walk, for when the target was teleport-proof; or Teleport as close as possible, then fly + extended invisibility which was pretty much the plan B for when teleport doesn't work. By the time you've put up sufficient wards to make it a challenge, the GM has essentially encased the target in an anti-magic field, which is just as unfair to the wizard as people claim the wizard is for the martials.
So, I agree that there may need to be some balance tweaks on some of the spells (in particular, the role-play heavy spells like prestidigitation and Unseen Servant were unnecessarily gutted, and some of the heightenings are a bit anemic which hurts sorcerers) but in general, I'm OK if the Wizards, Bards, and Clerics do have a little bit of power reined in on some of their more reality-bending effects.
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Thank you for your post.
One thing that is quite critical for me this new edtion is the magic nerfs. Honestly in its current form there is no way i would sit to play PF2 outside the playtest.
I hope feedback during the it makes paizo see the light regarding this subject.
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There are plenty of ways to make "Teleport" fail and adventure paths have described about all of them. In a world where teleportation is common, countermeasures to it are common as well. So I think your argument is a bit of a strawman.In our group it was Plane Shift for getting close, then Wind Walk, for when the target was teleport-proof; or Teleport as close as possible, then fly + extended invisibility which was pretty much the plan B for when teleport doesn't work. By the time you've put up sufficient wards to make it a challenge, the GM has essentially encased the target in an anti-magic field, which is just as unfair to the wizard as people claim the wizard is for the martials.
So, I agree that there may need to be some balance tweaks on some of the spells (in particular, the role-play heavy spells like prestidigitation and Unseen Servant were unnecessarily gutted, and some of the heightenings are a bit anemic which hurts sorcerers) but in general, I'm OK if the Wizards, Bards, and Clerics do have a little bit of power reined in on some of their more reality-bending effects.
Oh, I'm not saying that you can't reign in some of the more annoying aspects of certain spells, like Wind Walk and Gaseous Form... however putting them on the Uncommon list seems to be to me a wrong way to go about it.
However, overnerfing magical infiltration abilities also seems to be going to far to me, like the developers did in this playtest document. I want the Wizard to be able to cast Invisibility on the Rogue and have him go and scout out the oni lair. One minute durations are just too short for that sort of thing.
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Agreed.
I miss Vanish, which Paizo invented in the 1st place if I remember right.
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Week 1:
GM: "You must fight your way out of the slave-pits of Khazar..."
Wizard: "Teleport."
GM: "So you flee via teleportation. You can take 5 people with you. I presume you want to take your other three party members. Which two slaves is your 'hero' going to rescue?"
Week 2:
GM: "You have been hired to carry a valuable cargo across the perilous Sea of Scimitars..."
Wizard: "Teleport."
GM: "The cargo is 50,000 lbs. You can only take 500 lbs of it per teleport trip. Counting return trips, you'll need to teleport two hundred times to do this. So this will actually take longer than the boat ride, plus you'll definitely arrive off-target at least a few times doing that..."
Week 3:
GM: "You must rescue the priestess from the city prison..."Wizard: "Teleport."
GM: "please roll an arcana check against the teleport trap."
Wizard: *fails*GM: "You must rescue the priestess and the party wizard from the city prison..."
Week 4:
GM: "It's a race against time! Can you bring the priestess to the temple in time to prevent the ritual? The Bladehawks will be trying to thwart you at every step!"
Wizard: "Teleport."
GM: "the temple grounds are warded against teleportation, and you don't have any information about the surrounding area so you can't just teleport to a nearby location. You could use teleportation as part of your overland journey, but you'll still need to search out the exact location of the temple."
Week 5:
GM: "You must cross the Plains of Desolation and cast the evil artefact into the Bottomless Pit."
Wizard: "Teleport."
GM: "the evil artifact resists teleportation effects, and will be left behind if you attempt to teleport or use other similar magic"
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Being able to overcome problems that were formerly difficult for you is a natural part of character growth in Pathfinder, and spellcasters overcome their problems with magic. Taking this away essentially pulls a substantial part of the character growth of spellcasters. You could well create a game system where such powers don't exist, or are incredibly rare, but that wouldn't be Pathfinder. High-level characters with the right tools for the job should be able to trivialize problems; it's okay to be a world-changing power at these levels, and to a degree it's actually a problem if you aren't.It wouldn't be Pathfinder 1, that's for sure...
But my preference is for a game where interesting problems are not trivialized as soon as you hit level 9, to the extent that stories have to be rewritten to accommodate it:
Week 1:
GM: "You must fight your way out of the slave-pits of Khazar..."
Wizard: "Teleport."Week 2:
GM: "You have been hired to carry a valuable cargo across the perilous Sea of Scimitars..."
Wizard: "Teleport."Week 3:
GM: "You must rescue the priestess from the city prison..."
Wizard: "Teleport."Week 4:
GM: "It's a race against time! Can you bring the priestess to the temple in time to prevent the ritual? The Bladehawks will be trying to thwart you at every step!"
Wizard: "Teleport."Week 5:
GM: "You must cross the Plains of Desolation and cast the evil artefact into the Bottomless Pit."
Wizard: "Teleport."Week 6+:
GM: "There is a dungeon full of monsters. You must kill them all."
Wizard: "Finally, a challenge worthy of my skills!"
I mean, it's hardly as useful as you claim, if you as a GM tailor your world around the knowledge that teleportation magic exists (a more than reasonable thing to do), and keep in mind that short-circuiting a journey could lead to other potential issues. Here are example responses for your Week 1-5 entries:
Week 1:
GM: "Because they realized you were a wizard, they have attached an antimagic collar to you that you will need to remove. Trying to do so without the key/secret password deals Xd6 electric damage to you."
Week 2:
GM: "It's too heavy to teleport (maximum load limit)."
Week 3:
GM: "The prison is warded against teleportation."
Week 4:
GM: "Ok, you teleport into the temple, to find yourself staring down a large force of Bloodhawks about to be dispatched after you. Roll initiative."
Week 5:
GM: "Well, it's shielded from scrying and you don't have a very good description, so you're going to have a hard time teleporting accurately. Grab that d100..."
EDIT: ninja'd
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Acid Splash: It has minor damage, but no save and applies persistent damage. If fights in PF2E really last longer than two rounds, it actually is decent.
You missed the most important detail on this spell. It does splash damage and swarms have a weakness to Splash Damage. Given past experiences with how much Paizo loves swarms, I think it becomes a must have Cantrip.
Dancing Lights became less useful. Before it was a mobile light source, but now I’ve been told you become fatigued if you concentrate one a spell for too long.
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Acid Splash:
You missed the most important detail on this spell. It does splash damage and swarms have a weakness to Splash Damage.
Good point. Too bad the splash damage doesn't scale like the rest of the spell does when heightened.... 1 splash damage forever feels like it could be improved upon.
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This one is a silly point to bring up, but I bring it up because I have used it extensively in the playtest so far:
Telekinetic Projectile: This is a decent nuke spell, but it depends on your GM being nice and giving you stuff to throw at your opponents. If you don’t have a nice GM, always bring several bags of small rocks, razors and needles with you. This is probably the best single target cantrip against targets with physical weaknesses (like zombies).There is not a single forest, hillside slope, excavated tunnel... hell, PARKING LOT that I can walk through where I cannot find small, unattended objects to throw, whether there be sticks, stones, small hunks of asphalt, pebbles, loose bricks, etc. Plus, there's nothing to suggest it can't be the same projectile every single casting of the spell. If a GM argued this with me, we'd have to be either in the Astral or Ethereal Plane, or floating in the middle of the ocean to not be able to use this spell. :)
I don't have much to comment on the relative power levels of the spells, as I haven't been through the higher level playtests yet, and I am playing a Wizard, so I imagine I will have more to say at that point. I was popping off goblin warriors left and right with TK Projectile, though. :)
"Small" unattended object? No sir, only loose, no size or weight restriction.
Sorry, bulk. No bulk restriction