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We've had a lot of discussion about what you have to spend a feat on to do now, I figured it might be helpful to see what you no longer need to spend a feat on. Here is what I think we now essentially get for free.
Two-Weapon Fighting: Two-Weapon Fighting had no purpose other than to reduce the penalty you take on attack rolls when fighting with two weapons at once. IMO the PF2e equivalent of this is the Agile weapon property. Therefore all characters get TWFing for free.
Improved Disarm: Disarm has gone from having a feat tax + the improved disarm feat to simply being something you can do with weapons that have the disarm trait and training in the athletics skill.
Weapon Finesse: In order to use dexterity for melee attack rolls you need to use a finesse weapon and have the feat. In PF2e you just need to use a finesse weapon.
Improved Bull Rush: You do not provoke an Attack of Opportunity to bull rush someone, you just need to use a weapon with the shove property.
Precise Shot: Characters still get the cover-equivalent for characters being in the way, however ranged attacks no longer have a penalty if you're in base-to-base contact with someone.
Arcane Armor Training: Not only do you not have to use an action to avoid the arcane spell failure chance, but you don't need the feat to cast arcane spells in armor, you just need proficiency.
Arcane Armor Mastery: Same as Arcane Armor Training.
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Most of these free "feats" are aimed at martial characters. There is a bit less flexibility in that you have to have a specific weapon, but just like casters can swap out the spells they have, martial characters can swap out what feats they have by choosing different weapons.
[EDIT]: Added precise shot.
You might as well add Improved Grapple and Trip, since those are both folded into base Athletics usage as well, and neither provoke AOOs.
I believe you can also add Double Slice, since there's no half Str mod anymore on the off-hand.
In some ways, Spring attack and shot on the run. You don't do it in an action like in PF1, but you can move, attack and move, thanks to the 3 action system
Unarmed attack. True, there's still a penalty to do lethal damage with it, but it's now included with simple weapons, which everyone other than Wizard gets.
Taking the Weapon Proficiency general feat now gives all martial weapons instead of just one (again, except to Wizard, which would only get all simple).
On a similar note, Fighter now gets proficiency in all weapons including exotic, which is not only kind of cool but also fitting for a class that is supposed to be the master of armed combat.
Improved Feint Rather than a feat+a tax to feint and attack in one turn, you can feint and attack in any turn for any character by investing in Deception.
Could probably add Heighten and Intensify Spell, since both are just an inherent part of the magic system now, and thus any caster can do it for free (even Spont, though theirs is rather limited.)
A nice thing about the improved combat maneuver feats being essentially free is that combat expertise as the Ur-Feat-Tax is well and truly buried.
You mean combat expertise?
It's dead and has been distributed to every fighting style. Dueling Parry costs an action, Twin Parry costs an action, raising a shield costs an action. They all pretty much offer the same bonus in execution.
You mean combat expertise?
It's dead and has been distributed to every fighting style. Dueling Parry costs an action, Twin Parry costs an action, raising a shield costs an action. They all pretty much offer the same bonus in execution.
Different sort of thing though, since dueling parry etc. don't reduce your accuracy, which was the big problem with combat expertise, and trading your -10 attack for +2 AC and possibly a riposte is probably worth it (plus fighters eventually get to save the action).
But the main point is that no one will ever need to take combat expertise or another feat they have no intention of using in order to trip well.
I agree there, silly little great taxes got replaced with long feat chains for class features to scale. It's as if they intended a number of chains for you to build and gated them by class level so you always feel like you can choose that chain. The problem is you'll lose out on playing with the other class features.
I'd rather consolidate most of the abilities into scaling feats, and segregate the level gating into two or three tiers.
I agree there, silly little great taxes got replaced with long feat chains for class features to scale. It's as if they intended a number of chains for you to build and gated them by class level so you always feel like you can choose that chain. The problem is you'll lose out on playing with the other class features.
I'd rather consolidate most of the abilities into scaling feats, and segregate the level gating into two or three tiers.
While true, there are some gaps in most class feat progressions where you gain a new class feat at levels which don’t have new feat options, giving you a chance to branch out a little and take something from a lower level you missed out on.
Unarmed attack. True, there's still a penalty to do lethal damage with it, but it's now included with simple weapons, which everyone other than Wizard gets.
I don't think there is a penalty? At least not that I've read. Near as I can tell stuff like nonlethal-immune enemies just can't be knocked out(and the final hit KO is the only difference nonlethal has from lethal).
Unarmed attack. True, there's still a penalty to do lethal damage with it, but it's now included with simple weapons, which everyone other than Wizard gets.I don't think there is a penalty? At least not that I've read. Near as I can tell stuff like nonlethal-immune enemies just can't be knocked out(and the final hit KO is the only difference nonlethal has from lethal).
You lose the benefits of being proficient with the weapon (if you are).
If you’re making a nonlethal attack with a weapon that doesn’t have the nonlethal trait, calculate your attack roll’s result as if you were untrained with the weapon. Likewise, you can attempt lethal attacks with a weapon that has the nonlethal feature, also calculating your attack roll’s result as though you were untrained.
Unarmed attack. True, there's still a penalty to do lethal damage with it, but it's now included with simple weapons, which everyone other than Wizard gets.I don't think there is a penalty? At least not that I've read. Near as I can tell stuff like nonlethal-immune enemies just can't be knocked out(and the final hit KO is the only difference nonlethal has from lethal).
Nonlethal Attacks (p.294) Likewise you can attempt lethal attacks with a weapon that had the nonlethal feature, also calculating your attack roll's result as though you were untrained.
Edit: I type more slowly than Fuzzy. :P
A nice thing about the improved combat maneuver feats being essentially free is that combat expertise as the Ur-Feat-Tax is well and truly buried.
Question going forward though.
How do we improve on them without just saying "here's that check with a bigger number".
Also Dirty Tricks and Sunder need to get back in. Same with Bullrush. Shove is okay but not the same.
A nice thing about the improved combat maneuver feats being essentially free is that combat expertise as the Ur-Feat-Tax is well and truly buried.Question going forward though.
How do we improve on them without just saying "here's that check with a bigger number".
Also Dirty Tricks and Sunder need to get back in. Same with Bullrush. Shove is okay but not the same.
I feel like "feats to make you better at combat maneuvers" have to exist, but it's not immediately clear where to put them. Like monks get some class feat grapple options (e.g. "whirling throw" and "sleeper hold") but "good at a maneuver" shouldn't really be class specific for most options. Skill feats might be an inappropriate place for them, since skill feats are largely so you have to pick some non-combat options, but I guess the legendary intimidate power is kind of combat-applicable.
Mostly with "get a +2 to disarm" being unlikely, we have to come up with other enhancements for combat maneuvers, like "you can combine a strike and a disarm" or "you can knock someone's weapon out of their hand and catch it" or something.
A nice thing about the improved combat maneuver feats being essentially free is that combat expertise as the Ur-Feat-Tax is well and truly buried.Question going forward though.
How do we improve on them without just saying "here's that check with a bigger number".
Also Dirty Tricks and Sunder need to get back in. Same with Bullrush. Shove is okay but not the same.
I feel like "feats to make you better at combat maneuvers" have to exist, but it's not immediately clear where to put them. Like monks get some class feat grapple options (e.g. "whirling throw" and "sleeper hold") but "good at a maneuver" shouldn't really be class specific for most options. Skill feats might be an inappropriate place for them, since skill feats are largely so you have to pick some non-combat options, but I guess the legendary intimidate power is kind of combat-applicable.
Mostly with "get a +2 to disarm" being unlikely, we have to come up with other enhancements for combat maneuvers, like "you can combine a strike and a disarm" or "you can knock someone's weapon out of their hand and catch it" or something.
I disagree. I do believe some classes should have access to "Good at a maneuver". It might be Stereotyping but I can believe that a Rogue might be better at stealing or disarming mid combat than a Fighter, Monk, Wizard, etc.
And while I dislike the Dedication system, later on when it's expanded, you can probably put Dedication feats in there for the maneuvers. That way everyone can get those toys if they want.
Also I'll just take the ability to sub in a Feint or Trip mid attack without losing anything. Like Brawler and Monk can in PF1.
We've had a lot of discussion about what you have to spend a feat on to do now, I figured it might be helpful to see what you no longer need to spend a feat on. Here is what I think we now essentially get for free.
Two-Weapon Fighting: Two-Weapon Fighting had no purpose other than to reduce the penalty you take on attack rolls when fighting with two weapons at once. IMO the PF2e equivalent of this is the Agile weapon property. Therefore all characters get TWFing for free.
Improved Disarm: Disarm has gone from having a feat tax + the improved disarm feat to simply being something you can do with weapons that have the disarm trait and training in the athletics skill.
Weapon Finesse: In order to use dexterity for melee attack rolls you need to use a finesse weapon and have the feat. In PF2e you just need to use a finesse weapon.
Improved Bull Rush: You do not provoke an Attack of Opportunity to bull rush someone, you just need to use a weapon with the shove property.
Precise Shot: Characters still get the cover-equivalent for characters being in the way, however ranged attacks no longer have a penalty if you're in base-to-base contact with someone.
Arcane Armor Training: Not only do you not have to use an action to avoid the arcane spell failure chance, but you don't need the feat to cast arcane spells in armor, you just need proficiency.
Arcane Armor Mastery: Same as Arcane Armor Training.
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Most of these free "feats" are aimed at martial characters. There is a bit less flexibility in that you have to have a specific weapon, but just like casters can swap out the spells they have, martial characters can swap out what feats they have by choosing different weapons.[EDIT]: Added precise shot.
Problem with TWF is that it's basically dead. Fighting with two weapons means you're swinging either weapon once and that's it (well, if you're Hasted, but you're still suffering multiple attack penalties regardless, and you aren't doing anything else in the turn) unless you're a specific class (i.e. Ranger or Fighter) taking a specific feat that, to this day, is still labeled wrong! Double Slice? Why not Double Strike? It's simple, progressive, and doesn't come with the "Do I have to use Slashing weapons to use this feat?" baggage that a casual reader might ask on the forums because reasons. Not everyone uses slashing weapons for TWF, so this needs to be dropped. /endtangent
Improved Disarm, while being gone as a feat, still requires extreme levels of investment to do what you originally intend to do. All they did was change it from being behind a feat wall to being behind an optimization wall (one which still isn't particularly worth doing most of the time, either due to natural weapons being a thing, or because enemies have stupid amounts of size bonuses that you need sheer optimization to have a relative chance of not shorting yourself). Is it better? Perhaps; at least the requirements are different. But it still requires absolute optimization to make effective, and doesn't work on most enemies, just like PF1. So honestly, this no longer being a feat doesn't really matter, because it's still a hefty bill with not much of a return for paying it.
Weapon Finesse not being a feat is perhaps the best thing here. It does bring the Dex-based characters more in parity on the feat side of things...but too much power and now Dex-based combat becomes the norm. Ugh.
Improved Bull Rush not being a feat still has major issues, since you now have to use a weapon with the shove quality to bull rush. Congratulations, no more using raw brute force to just push enemies off the bridge, you have to have a weapon to do that. Not gonna lie, while getting rid of the feat is nice, it shouldn't have had to come at the cost of being so weapon-reliant to do. It's bad design and, IMO, needs to go.
Precise Shot was meh anyway. It was a feat to help you get rid of a (relatively) dumb rule. Getting rid of the rule in the game meant a dead feat (though if the inverse happened, people would probably be up-in-arms about it). Good riddance-ish, but they could have included other ways to make a feat like Precise Shot function; look at what they did with Quick Draw, Double Slice Strike, Vital Strike Power Attack, and other "old" feats. Why not do something like that with Precise Shot? The world may never know.
Arcane Armor Training/Mastery were trap feats. Swift Actions contained some of the most useful/powerful options in the game, and giving it up just so you could cast in lower-tier armor without a chance of failure was a really bad waste of both feats, monetary resources (yeah, Mithril armor was required more-or-less), and Swift Actions. (You could be casting a whole other spell with that, for crying out loud!) I'm glad these feats are gone, because less traps in the game means better baseline gameplay.
Problem with TWF is that it's basically dead.
I disagree. TWF is different, but not dead. You get different bonuses and penalties for TWFing vs two-handed fighting vs one-hand + free hand fighting.
Whether or not they're different enough I don't know (haven't playtested yet). But they do exist.
Weapon Finesse not being a feat is perhaps the best thing here.
I'm not saying whether these feats no longer being required to do these things are better or worse then how PF1e did it. I'm simply pointing out that these feats are now automatically gained by all characters who do the thing to get them (e.g. use a weapon with the appropriate trait).
I am in no way making a judgement, simply pointing it out so when we all complain about the feat taxes we now have to take to get AoOs or other things that use to be handed out for free, we remember that some feat taxes have been removed to judge the change holistically.