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Still on my quest to build a support character I like to play. One big plus for the caster classes is the battlefield control they provide.
Problem for me is, that I didn't had much need for those in the few scenarios I have played so far.
I used grease to help in a grapple, but didn't have much use for it to control battle. The melees normally get into, well, melee, and then it's most of the time trading of blows. Not much movement going on, normally only a few 1-3 opponents, and only in one encounter we had melees that were backed up by archers.
Ok, my first PFS char is now 4, so I haven't seen much. But how much control is actually needed?
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You never notice that you're missing control until you need it.
A well-placed wall, or pit, or summoned critter can turn the tide in a battle.
I wouldn't suggest building a character strictly for control, though. It's one of those things (IMO) that's good to have available when you need it.
One of the benefits of the caster classes, IMO, is that, if you get enough warning of what you are likely to see, is that you can customize your spell list.
And you can also get scrolls and wands of stuff that the CL and save DC doesn't matter much.
And, sometimes, even that isn't that important. Had a scroll of ghostbane dirge, and the target failed its Will save. Made a serious difference in that combat, since most of the PCs didn't have magic weapons yet.
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Control is the most powerful part of the game.
The fights are meant to be X amount of monster to challenge the players. If you can remove or delay a monster. You completely uneven the fight in your favor.
Grease has tons of uses. a the wolf said above knocking them prone is brutal. As is casting it on their weapon. If they fail the save they need to make the save every time they want to use it after they pick it back up. I completely shut down a flying barbarian, a flying bow devil, and an enlarged hill giant with grease. SO you can see I am using it well past level 4.
I have a pure control sorcerer(he hates bully magic that hurts people) and it by far my most powerful character. He can solo most combat encounters without causing damage.
Is control needed, no. It just puts the game on easy mode.
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Actually, moving across it does.
While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any).
So you either don't use acrobatics to stand in it or you make a dc 10 to hop accross it.
That also refers to uneven ground and narrow surfaces, neither of which quite define grease. Grease has the rules for moving through it in the grease spell, which don't seem to make you flat footed.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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BNW: Grease tells you to use Acrobatics to move through it, and then says that if you don't move you're not flat-footed. Why would you be flat-footed if you move? Because you have to use Acrobatics.
You could try to jump out of/over the greasy patch, but unless you have a running start, the DC is likely to be higher than walking.
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Pit spells are great control that even work on golems. At higher levels, you get wall spells, resilient sphere, ice spears, icy prison, and more.
Murderous Command is kinda ridiculously good, especially if you extend it. You can also do crazy things like confuse someone then murderous command their closest ally so that they get locked into attacking back.
I personally dont care for the big AoE control spells like Black Tentacles and Stinking Cloud for PCs. They are usually more disruptive for your party than for the enemy.
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Actually, moving across it does.
While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any).
So you either don't use acrobatics to stand in it or you make a dc 10 to hop accross it.
That also refers to uneven ground and narrow surfaces, neither of which quite define grease. Grease has the rules for moving through it in the grease spell, which don't seem to make you flat footed.
In addition to what Nefreet said, the slippery surface rules are nearly identical to the uneven/narrow surfaces rule, which would define grease. I simply grabbed the shorter quote.
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In addition to what Nefreet said, the slippery surface rules are nearly identical to the uneven/narrow surfaces rule, which would define grease. I simply grabbed the shorter quote.Actually, moving across it does.
While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any).
So you either don't use acrobatics to stand in it or you make a dc 10 to hop accross it.
That also refers to uneven ground and narrow surfaces, neither of which quite define grease. Grease has the rules for moving through it in the grease spell, which don't seem to make you flat footed.
I believe you lose your dex bonus while balancing on a narrow surface, but not on grease if you hold still. So there are differences between the two.
if you're not moving you're not flat footed
if you're moving you're probably leaving the grease.
So you'll be flat footed for... 2 squares?
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?At this point I do not understand your reply... Sorry, must be past my bedtime...?
Means that the spell, once again, applies the wrong condition, although that is a legacy of Acrobatics applying the incorrect condition.
Both of them should be saying, "You are denied your Dex bonus to AC while you are moving in this fashion." rather than saying, "You are flatfooted while moving in this fashion."
The first one still leaves the target sneakable and easy to hit, the second adds in being unable to make AoOs, among other things.
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Thanks for all the replies.
Grease covers 4 fields. The DC is 10 vs a dex based skill, followed by a reflex save.
If applied on a weapon the DC would be 10+1+cast ability mod, which means 14-17 in the low level range.
So, using it on a weapon would have a better chance than greasing the floor.
Hmm...
How do you normally handle battle situations? If you give the ranged folk clear line, that means the bad guy could charge them. If not, you'll provide cover.
How do you remove people from combat?
And I love the idea of obscuring mist combined with a buff to look through it :)
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One effective, if situational, means of removing enemies is a simple Wall of Stone (a bit higher level than where you are currently, but still handy to keep in mind).
In one particular high-level scenario (no spoilers), we were dealing with a number of nasties on the ground, while archers were taking potshots at us from a ten-foot wide stone ledge above, with a stone wall rising further above them. Our wizard, an evoker who has been known to reduce entire encounters to carbon shadows on the wall with a single fireball, used Wall of Stone to effectively entomb a handful of them (I want to say 6, but it was probably more like 4) with stone rising in front of them, then overhead, and finally putting a cap on either end, merging it all with the existing stone.
Not being the types to whip out earthbreakers and try to batter through, they were trapped there until a short while later, when, having dealt with the main threat, we let them out to give them a stern talking to.
Frankly, it's just a matter of getting creative with the tools you have.
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Thanks for all the replies.
Grease covers 4 fields. The DC is 10 vs a dex based skill, followed by a reflex save.
If applied on a weapon the DC would be 10+1+cast ability mod, which means 14-17 in the low level range.So, using it on a weapon would have a better chance than greasing the floor.
Hmm...
How do you normally handle battle situations? If you give the ranged folk clear line, that means the bad guy could charge them. If not, you'll provide cover.How do you remove people from combat?
And I love the idea of obscuring mist combined with a buff to look through it :)
I believe when Grease is cast, there's an immediate reflex save to avoid falling. That is made before Acrobatics is possible, and the DC is the same as when it is cast on an object. Acrobatics comes in after the spell is already in place if someone in the area tries to move. So casting it on the ground can result in four medium creatures falling prone immediately, if they all fail their saves. Acrobatics doesn't enter the picture until their turns come around, and they try to move.
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I believe when Grease is cast, there's an immediate reflex save to avoid falling. That is made before Acrobatics is possible, and the DC is the same as when it is cast on an object. Acrobatics comes in after the spell is already in place if someone in the area tries to move. So casting it on the ground can result in four medium creatures falling prone immediately, if they all fail their saves. Acrobatics doesn't enter the picture until their turns come around, and they try to move.Thanks for all the replies.
Grease covers 4 fields. The DC is 10 vs a dex based skill, followed by a reflex save.
If applied on a weapon the DC would be 10+1+cast ability mod, which means 14-17 in the low level range.So, using it on a weapon would have a better chance than greasing the floor.
Hmm...
How do you normally handle battle situations? If you give the ranged folk clear line, that means the bad guy could charge them. If not, you'll provide cover.How do you remove people from combat?
And I love the idea of obscuring mist combined with a buff to look through it :)
Exactly.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I tend to go with standing up without a check, but often enough by then another PC will be standing nearby to take an AOO on the prone-standing-up enemy, who is at that time having bad AC.
I've also lured a high-dex monster into coming at me across a Grease, so that I could finally hit its touch AC with a readied bomb.
It's kind of two-edged: high dex enemies can easily pass the Acrobatics, but at the same time they lose the most AC from the flat-footedness.
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I never want to run Black Tentacles again, ever. It's just that good and takes ages to tackle. By about level 9 it's effects aren't much to write home about, unless you are able to boost the CL with items, etc, but that's also when the conjuration starts to disappear from Tactics sections. On tiers 4-5, 6-7 etc though, whoo-whee!
That said, I wish we had to deal with just battlefield control and not total shutdowns: Area blindness, daze, walls with condition effects, etc. I hate throwing away prep and I hate running combats where PC's just skip turns counting away rounds of duration.
Edit: just remembered one sorcerer flying 100 feet above street level dropping down empowered shockballs. Don't want to run that either.
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Black Tentacles alone is manageable if you prepare for it. It's when you start stacking it with other things that it gets nasty.
I believe that's the same scenario as flying empower shockball man, too. Dont forget he opens with his aoe that gives people electric vulnerability!
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Venture-Captain, Oregon—Portland
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Wrath of the Accursed went about the same for me when I ran a group through it, though the group ran away at the end. That's an excellent scenario to run for players that complain about the "ease" of some of the earlier seasons. Keeps players on their toes a bit. ;-)
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Wrath of the Accursed went about the same for me when I ran a group through it, though the group ran away at the end. That's an excellent scenario to run for players that complain about the "ease" of some of the earlier seasons. Keeps players on their toes a bit. ;-)
IIRC, the bad guy spent most of the rest of combat running from my PC.