I currently have a Sorc5/Dragon Disciple 4 that attacks with claws/bite (houseruled permanent) whose next 2 feats will be Eldritch heritage and Improved Eldritch Heritage (orc).
The problem is that i'm only taking Touch of Rage because i have to, so i'm not sure i'll ever use it.
Do you think there are other 2-feat options that could match the +6 str offered by improved eldritch heritage?
See if your DM will allow you to trade off the Touch of Rage bloodline power for either Blood Havoc or a bloodline familiar. You already have sorcerer levels, so I don't see much wrong with allowing that.
The Abyssal Bloodline also adds +6 Str from the bloodline powers, and their first levels power is claws just like the Draconic bloodline. If the DM does not want to let you swap the power for something else, see if he'll let you increase the damage of your claws if you double up on the claw bloodline powers.
As for the 2-feat combo that might be interesting ... what race is you character? Do they have the [orc] subtype or can be counted as [orc]? If so .... Raging Blood + Amplified Rage might be something you can use. With your
Blood havoc only works if I have spell focus so i would have to take another feat (which isn’t possible)
My character is a human by the way
Bump
Any suggestions?
If you want Str from feats, there is Raging Blood. Now it's "just" +2 Str and +2 Con for some rounds, but you don't need Skill Focus or Eldritch Heritage for it. And you get these +2 right now, opposed to the two bloodlines where you have to wait until level 19 for full benefit (level 17 if you also take Greater Eldritch Heritage).
In case you are settled on long-term bonuses, Exotic Heritage allows you to pick up Eldritch Heritage (pit-touched) - gain +6 Con instead of +6 Str. But the Eldritch Heritage for infernal bloodline is still pretty much a feat tax - unless the GM rules such a touch attack isn't a standard action but replaces a single attack.
Spending class levels is more effective. A single level of bloodrager adds +4 Str temporarily, a level of alchemist does the same. When it comes to items, a Str belt is probably an obvious choice, but also consider a mask of giants. The greater version offers a whopping +6 and is compatible with claws and bite from bloodlines (well, unless they are permanent - you might need GM's support here again).
Do you think there are ways of gaining as much power as these str bonuses without necessarily taking STR feats?
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Touch of Rage is not that bad when combined with other options:
- the feat Quicken SLA lets you cast it as a swift action 3/day.
- the trait Community Minded extends the duration by 2 rounds, for a total of 3 rounds.
- the spell Moment of Greatness lets you double the effect of Touch of Rage on one roll.
At level 10, your routine would be:
0) Get Moment of Greatness cast on the party by one ally or yourself during the buff round.
1) Swift-cast Touch of Rage on you and charge the first enemy in line by discharging the effect of MoG on the damage roll for an extra +8 damage.
2) Full attack enjoying 2 more rounds of +4 to hit, damage (which applies to EACH attack, so +12 damage in total) and Will saves.
Repeat
If you can't get Quicken SLA, then simply cast ToR before jumping into battle as a standard action, and you would still have 2 rounds to spare.
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Replace the 1st level bloodline power with a familiar, any character with a bloodline has the ability to replace their 1st level bloodline power with a bloodline familiar.
Eldrtich Heritage doesn't give you a Bloodline. It only gives you access to the 1st level Bloodline power. No effect relying on having a Bloodline applies to Eldritch Heritage benefits (for example, Robes of Arcane Heritage)
It gives you a bloodline, since it can't be in a bloodline that you already have
Hm, the text of Eldritch Heritage etc. doesn't support this claim. And the "This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have." clause could easily be about bloodline powers - doesn't make much sense to get them twice*.
* Now there are some options to exchange your regular bloodline powers. With enough of them traded away, getting them back from Eldritch Heritage etc. would make sense. But such options were rare back in UM times, the book only (?) had the wildblooded archetype for such tricks.
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Rules don't work that way. Eldritch Heritage says that you can choose a bloodline and you get the associated powers. Nowhere it is said that you actually get the bloodline itself, therefore you don't qualify for effects relying on having one.
In fact, Sorcerers can get EH only if they select a bloodline other than their own. This because, unless they are Crossblooded, Sorcerers can only have one bloodline. As a result, having access to a second set of bloodline powers doesn't imply having a second bloodline.
Again you can not have a bloodline power with out having ties to that bloodline, it would be like saying you can be proficient in using weapons with out having weapon proficiency with that weapon.Rules don't work that way. Eldritch Heritage says that you can choose a bloodline and you get the associated powers. Nowhere it is said that you actually get the bloodline itself, therefore you don't qualify for effects relying on having one.
In fact, Sorcerers can get EH only if they select a bloodline other than their own. This because, unless they are Crossblooded, Sorcerers can only have one bloodline. As a result, having access to a second set of bloodline powers doesn't imply having a second bloodline.
Produce literally any rule or faq that states this.
Don't try to logic it, or emotionally argue it, produce any rule, or faq, that states it.
but that the feats don't grant the bloodline class ability isn't really in question.
I can honestly make a decent argument that THIS PARTICULAR CHARACTER should be able to do that,
Edit: on looking at the rules for bloodline familiars, this character missed the bus, you must do so at 1st level.
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No, the rules for taking those familiars say you must do so at 1st level.
Those with an inherent connection to magic often attract creatures who feel a similar instinctive pull toward magical forces. At 1st level, a sorcerer, bloodrager, or any other character with one of the following bloodlines can choose to gain a bloodline familiar.
You do it at first level or you miss the bus.
The reason for it is pretty clear too, you don't only lose the level 1 power, you also get your bonus spells delayed.
This replaces the 1st-level bloodline power granted by the character’s bloodline; in addition, the character gains bonus spells from her bloodline one level later than she normally would. For example, a sorcerer with the aberrant bloodline who takes a bloodline familiar would not gain the acidic ray bloodline power, and she would gain her first bonus spell at 4th level, her second bonus spell at 6th level, and so on.
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Not to mention that, even if EH actually counted as having a bloodline (and it doesn't), you could not get a bloodline familiar because the cost of it is the 1st level bloodline power and delayed bloodline spells. Since you don't have said bloodline spells (because you don't have actually a bloodline), you can't afford a bloodline familiar.
Uh, they cant actually. Unless you've got an official source showing that they can. They can't satisfy the bloodline spells requirement.
If you cannot fulfill the costs of an option you cannot have the option. The fact that people have posted a bunch of builds that don't work within the rules doesn't mean they work. As I said before, post a from the book rule or a faq to back your position up. Stop arguing off what you think should logically follow.
And yes, yes it does disallow it, the fact that you dont LIKE that it disallows it doesn't mean it isn't disallowed.
The fact that it isn't an archetype at least means that if there is some change to your bloodline spells (like having different ones, or getting them at different levels) means you can still take the option, but if you don't get bloodline spells at all, you cannot recieve them one level later than normal and cannot fulfill the costs of the option.
I've never in my life met someone worse at pathfinder rules than you.
Both the spell delay and 1st level power are requirements. Find a ruling or FAQ that supports you or GTFO
I'm literally saying i wouldnt. Which is the crux of my argument regarding the archetypes that give up bloodline spells.
Prereq for the extra rogue talent feat is that you already have the rogue talent ability.
Requirements for the bloodline familiar is that you:
1. Have a bloodline and are level 1
2. Give up your level 1 bloodline power
3. Are able to delay bloodline spells by one level.
If you cannot fulfill all three requirements you do not get the familiar. You cannot "delay" a class ability you never gain.
Find a faq that supports you. Bloodline spells are part of the bloodline class ability which you get at level 1. The marking bloodline spell on the chart is a notation that its a level where the bloodline ability grants you a new spell, not an instance of a new ability.
At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.
Its the same with Bloodline feats, they are all linked to the Bloodline ability gained at level 1, not separate instances of a new ability.
So, without the bloodline ability (which the feat does not grant) you cannot take the bloodline familiar, as 1. You must be level 1 which is below the minimum level for the feat, and 2. you are missing half the prereqs for the familiar by not having bloodline spells.
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I'm literally saying i wouldnt. Which is the crux of my argument regarding the archetypes that give up bloodline spells.
Prereq for the extra rogue talent feat is that you already have the rogue talent ability.
Requirements for the bloodline familiar is that you:
1. Have a bloodline and are level 1
2. Give up your level 1 bloodline power
3. Are able to delay bloodline spells by one level.If you cannot fulfill all three requirements you do not get the familiar. You cannot "delay" a class ability you never gain.
This is correct
There is a checklist.
1. Are you level 1? If yes proceed to 2
2. Do you have the bloodline class ability? If yes proceed to 3
3. Do you have a level 1 bloodline power? If yes proceed to 4
4. Does your bloodline class ability eventually grant bloodline spells? If yes proceed to conclusion
Conclusion: You do not receive your level 1 power, and your bloodline spells are delayed by one level.
If the answer to any of those is no, you cant have a bloodline familiar.
Eldritch heratige does not grant the bloodline class ability, nor does it grant bloodline spells, nor may it be taken at level 1, therefore you may not have a bloodline familiar.
Archetypes that remove access to spellcasting and bloodline spells cannot delay receiving bloodline spells, therefore you cannot have a bloodline familiar.
I'm sorry, but i can't explain it any clearer than that. You're wrong, get over it.
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Never getting bloodline spells is still never getting bloodline spells though there is no difference between a character who trades away their bloodline spells due to an archetype and one that trades them away for levels in another class.There is a checklist.
1. Are you level 1? If yes proceed to 2
2. Do you have the bloodline class ability? If yes proceed to 3
3. Do you have a level 1 bloodline power? If yes proceed to 4
4. Does your bloodline class ability eventually grant bloodline spells? If yes proceed to conclusionConclusion: You do not receive your level 1 power, and your bloodline spells are delayed by one level.
If the answer to any of those is no, you cant have a bloodline familiar.
Eldritch heratige does not grant the bloodline class ability, nor does it grant bloodline spells, nor may it be taken at level 1, therefore you may not have a bloodline familiar.
Archetypes that remove access to spellcasting and bloodline spells cannot delay receiving bloodline spells, therefore you cannot have a bloodline familiar.
I'm sorry, but i can't explain it any clearer than that. You're wrong, get over it.
Except one technically still has the option of gaining them.
If you cannot gain bloodline spells, you cannot gain a bloodline familiar
Sure, you could take bloodrager, multi class and never gain bloodline spells and would be able to have your bloodline familiar. Buuuuuuut if you take an archetype that replaces bloodline spells then you've permanently locked yourself out of the bloodline familiar option
Never getting bloodline spells is still never getting bloodline spells though there is no difference between a character who trades away their bloodline spells due to an archetype and one that trades them away for levels in another class.
Except there is, because the principle is the same as every archetype, you can't take an archetype that changes or gets rid of a class ability you've already changed or forfeited, even if you don't level far enough in the archetype to get there.
You're misinterpreting the comment. 1. the OP's character is well past level 1, and 2 you can't retroactively take it via eldritch heratige as you must be level 3 to take that feat. If you don't take it at the first level that you gain the bloodline class ability, you cannot retroactively take the option through some combo of feats later.
Except when you forfeit bloodline spells due to an archetype such as untouchable rager for bloodrager it affects the level 1 Bloodline class ability and you do NOT have the ability to "gain bloodline spells later on"
In addition, if you take an option, and later use retraining to take na archetype that removes a requirement for that option, the option ceases to function. (ie: you lose your familiar)
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When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features, but replacing them with other options. All other class features of the base class that aren't mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level, unless noted otherwise. A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced for the purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
And
A character can take more than one archetype (sometimes called “stacking” archetypes) and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.
Not having the bloodline spells blocks the familiar
Yes and by taking away bloodline spells, you no longer meet the requirements of a bloodline familiar, as you cannot "delay" a class ability you do not have.
That isn't how it works, and yes, its exactly how that works, if you do not meet the costs of a thing you do not keep it.
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They have been delayed to never obtaining them. Plus since its not a feat just because you no longer meat the prerequisites doesn't shut off the ability.
Not meeting prereqs DOES shut off abilities...
Since bloodline familiar alters the bloodline spells it can't be used in conjunction with something else that alters bloodline spells. Not gaining IS altering