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Well, the point of contention I believe is that if a Wizard knows Invisibility as a 2nd level spell, they can prepare it as a 4th level spell (for what used to be called "Greater Invisibility") and do not need to bother learning Invisibility as a 4th level spell.
A sorcerer, whose "spells known" are much more limited, would have to learn Invisibility twice if they wanted to be able to cast both versions, unless they devoted a "spontaneous heightening" slot to it.
I think this works since "Spells known" is not really a meaningful currency for the Wizard, but "what spells you prepared" is. A sorcerer's primary currency is "what spells do you know" so automatically letting them know 10 spells with a single "spell known" choice would sort of break the assumptions of the class if they can do it repeatedly.
Because while the Wizard is at an advantage because they can learn invisibility once and prepare either versions, a Sorcerer is at an advantage since they can make dispel magic a spontaneous heightening spell and have access to the exact dispel they need to counter any spell they see, up to running out of slots while the Wizard might need to prepare Dispel as a 3rd, 5th, and 7th level spell and that might not be enough or it might be overkill.
Whether the sorcerer's advantages relative to the wizard are too much or not enough, or vice versa, is why we playtest.
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That’s what I’m saying though is that a wizard can’t just prepare the 2nd level as a 4th level without selecting it as one of his spells he adds to his spellbook as a 4th Level spell. If he wants to prepare and cast Invisibility at its 4th level version he must add that 4th level version to his list of spells known, i.e. his spell book. Which is why I think the devs left out some key wording in the heighten spell entry of the spells blog. It saves on writing out 9 different iterations of like heal.
So if he knows Invis 2 he still needs to find a scroll of Invis 4 to get it into his spellbook?
What if he has Invis 4 in his spellbook? Can he derive Invis 2 from it?
Or are the two just completely different spells that happen to share rulebook space as far as the wizard is concerned?
Completely different spells that share rulebook space. Evidenced by the sentence Just heighten those spells to the appropriate level! There's no longer any need to learn long chains of spells that are incrementally different and each require you to refer back to the previous spell. While this sounds like you can just have the 1st level and heighten it, it really means instead of always having to look back at the previous spell description, now it’s all in one and you just figure out the effect at the new level.That’s what I’m saying though is that a wizard can’t just prepare the 2nd level as a 4th level without selecting it as one of his spells he adds to his spellbook as a 4th Level spell. If he wants to prepare and cast Invisibility at its 4th level version he must add that 4th level version to his list of spells known, i.e. his spell book. Which is why I think the devs left out some key wording in the heighten spell entry of the spells blog. It saves on writing out 9 different iterations of like heal.So if he knows Invis 2 he still needs to find a scroll of Invis 4 to get it into his spellbook?
What if he has Invis 4 in his spellbook? Can he derive Invis 2 from it?
Or are the two just completely different spells that happen to share rulebook space as far as the wizard is concerned?
So how would you rewrite the relevant paragraph of All About Spells for clarity? It looks to be one hell of a rewrite.
In the playtest, you'll be able to heighten your favorite spells in order to gain greater effects than ever before. Heightening a spell works much like it did previously, where you prepare a spell in a higher-level slot (or cast it using a higher-level slot if you're a spontaneous caster), except now all spellcasters can do it, and you gain much more interesting benefits. Want to fire 15 missiles with magic missile or turn into a Huge animal with animal form? Just heighten those spells to the appropriate level! There's no longer any need to learn long chains of spells that are incrementally different and each require you to refer back to the previous spell.
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Hmm. OT1H, I want your interpretation to be correct, I think it's cleaner. OTOH, I don't want to believe Mark was on LSD when he blogged that paragraph, which seems to be a corollary.
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Ugh, this is a confusing mess.
As I understand it, prepared casters that learn a spell automatically know all heightened versions of it. This is a strict upgrade on before, but not by much since any wizard worth his salt would learn all those spells ASAP from scrolls and spellbooks.
Sorcerers have to take a heightened version as a known spell at the heightened level *or* have it as one of their spont. heightens. This is a big upgrade from before since before he didn't get any equivalent to spontaneous heighten.
But it means that both can have spells automatically heightened. That doesn't mean they they will have them, though. For a sorcerer he has to have it as spontaneously heightened or as a spell known, and for the wizard, he has to have it prepared, but they both can do it.
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How is that not s true statement, their spells known is just their spell book, where they add the new spells learned at each level...That is not a true statement for prepared casters.Also the rewrite is pretty simple. Just add at the end.
“In order to prepare or cast a heightened version the caster must still need to know the heightened version of the spell.”
A wizard just needs magic missile in their spellbook. One spell. They can prepare magic missile in any higher level spell slot to gain the benefits from heightening.
"In order to prepare a heightened version, the caster must still need to know the heightened version" is incorrect. They need only know the base version.
Perhaps it would help if you separated the concepts of spells known and a sorcerer's repertoire. A sorcerer may know magic missile, but only have the level 3 and level 5 versions in her repertoire. On most days, those are the only versions she can cast. On days she chooses magic missile to spontaneously heighten, she can cast magic missile at any level 1-9. Thus, a sorcerer's spells known aren't quite the same as her repertoire.
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The way it’s writtn just seems to suggest that all casters can heighten spells without having to take them at each level, but the sorcerer directly contradicts that by indirectly saying the sorcerer has to take the same spell at each level to use the heightened versions, just sloppy writing.A sorcerer is a spellcaster capable of heightening certain spells. That doesn't contradict the statement that all spellcasters can heighten spells.
And "works much like before" doesn't mean "works like before".
The sorcerer can heighten spells without having to take them at each level, though. That is a true statement. It is also true that the spells she can heighten are limited to those she chooses to spontaneously heighten.
The writing is precise if you know what the rules actually are. It's also easy to read too much into. I'd caution against making too many assumptions from a preview blog.
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That’s what I’m saying though is that a wizard can’t just prepare the 2nd level as a 4th level without selecting it as one of his spells he adds to his spellbook as a 4th Level spell. If he wants to prepare and cast Invisibility at its 4th level version he must add that 4th level version to his list of spells known, i.e. his spell book. Which is why I think the devs left out some key wording in the heighten spell entry of the spells blog. It saves on writing out 9 different iterations of like heal.
EDIT: why is the sorcerer the only one stuck having to choose the different levels of a spell and given an ability like spontaneus heightening, if the spells blog said all spell casters can heighten spells. It makes no sense
The wizard does not need to do this. The wizard learns invisibility as a 2nd level spell and can then, when appropiate, heighten it when he prepares spells. He does not need to add invisibility (level 2) to his spellbook and then add invisibility (level 4). He just learns the first one.
The same is true for the cleric, and I'd assume other prepared casters as well. In effect, when they learn a spell, they learn all the "levels" of that spell.
The sorcerer does not. They learn spells at that specific level. They don't learn heal, they learn heal (level 1) or heal (level 3). And every day, they can choose two of their spells known to heighten at will.
So for example, two casters; one prepared, one spontaneous; both level 9th (so they get up to 5th level spell slots). Lets say they both know heal as a 1st level spell.
The prepared caster can prepare heal as a spell of any level they can cast (1 through 5).
The spontanous caster can choose heal as one of their two spontaneous heightening spells. In that case they can cast it as a spell of any level they can cast (1 through 5). If they don't, they're stuck with only being able to cast heal (level 1) throughout the day, regardless of the slot used.
But again, the Wizard needs to actually prepare the spell at the level they want to cast it at. If a Wizard thinks they are going to go up against a lot of casters, they're going to need to prepare Dispel Magic in a bunch of slots, and since Dispel Magic only works on spells at the same or a lower level, if a Wizard wants to counter a level 6 spell but only has a Level 5 and Level 7 Dispel Magic memorized, they have to use to use a level 7 slot to counter a level 6 spell, which is disadvantageous and perhaps they have prepared all their level 7 slots and only one of them is dispel magic.
Meanwhile, the sorcerer can just designate "Dispel Magic" as one of their spont heighten spells, and play Magical Aikido all day, countering any spell with the exact minimum amount of resources needed to do it (modulo being out of slots.)
So the Wizard knowing lots of spells is not a problem, since "knowing spells" is not the primary limiter for Wizards. It is, however, the primary limiter for sorcerers so they don't get to know a ton of spells for free.
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Then that gives wizards the far greater advantage since they have more spells available and only need to take the same spell once. Where a sorcerer has very few spells available and must choose the same spell at each level to cast the heightened versions of them without using his Spontaneus Heigtening ability, by 3rd level a wizard will be able to choose from between 6-8 different 1st level spells where a sorcerer will still only have the same 2-3 spells from level 1 because they have to take the same spell at each individual spell level. The wizard as it levels is getting even more and more diverse in its spells where as the sorcerer is stuck with the same 2-3 spells from a even more limited bloodline list.
I understand a sorcerer is not going to have the same amount of spells to choose from as a wizard does but the way it’s currently written it barely gets to make a choice to take a brand new spell at each level when it has to take the same spell each spell level to continue to use the spells it wants to use.. and by it I mean the player.
A wizard only needs to learn a spell once. But, if they want to cast it at multiple levels, they must prepare it in multiple slots.
A sorcerer doesn't need to keep the same spells at each level. She can skip levels, or only keep the highest level, or only keep the lowest level and always choose to heighten that one. At 5th level, Seoni could replace magic missile (level 1) with endure elements and add magic missile (level 3) to her repertoire instead.
The sorcerer should build their spell repertoire around which spells she plans to choose to spontaneously heighten and how she plans to change those choices, if ever.
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Then that gives wizards the far greater advantage since they have more spells available and only need to take the same spell once. Where a sorcerer has very few spells available and must choose the same spell at each level to cast the heightened versions of them without using his Spontaneus Heigtening ability, by 3rd level a wizard will be able to choose from between 6-8 different 1st level spells where a sorcerer will still only have the same 2-3 spells from level 1 because they have to take the same spell at each individual spell level. The wizard as it levels is getting even more and more diverse in its spells where as the sorcerer is stuck with the same 2-3 spells from a even more limited bloodline list.
I understand a sorcerer is not going to have the same amount of spells to choose from as a wizard does but the way it’s currently written it barely gets to make a choice to take a brand new spell at each level when it has to take the same spell each spell level to continue to use the spells it wants to use.. and by it I mean the player..
Well, yes. Welcome to one of the biggest complaints about the new Sorcerer. It's not quite as bad as you put it: not all spells can be heightened, not all heightening is the same (some of it goes up a level, some goes up 2 levels, etc), and spell retraining allows you to mitigate the bad stuff somewhat (by, for example, switching a lower level for something else once you get the new and improved version).
But yes, Wizards have a tremendous advantage in spells known compared to a sorcerer. And more spellcasting slots. So you are correct in that the Sorcerer isn't looking so hot.
But yes, Wizards have a tremendous advantage in spells known compared to a sorcerer. And more spellcasting slots. So you are correct in that the Sorcerer isn't looking so hot.
I was under the impression sorcerers have the same number of spell slots at each level as a specialist wizard, hence one more per level than a generalist wizard.
If the post from Mark Seifter is correct, Sorcerers have as many slots as specialist wizards. Given that it is Mark, it most likely is.
Ah, my apologies, I was just going off the blog, which said:
"The sorcerer gets the same number of spells per day as a wizard, but she has a number of spells she knows permanently instead of preparing them from a spellbook every day."
Which to me would mean 3, since that's the number of slots a Wizard gets. Though even a universalist gets technically 4 slots, they're just forced to basically prepare a spell twice.
But if it's 4, I stand corrected.
Funny thing to me is how in a magical duel between a sorcerer and a wizard of the same level, a sorcerer can declare dispel magic to be a spontaneous heightening spell and thereby counter every single spell the wizard uses with equal force, resulting in the fight devolving into a battle of cantrips and things that cost spell points.
So we might need a different "magical duelling" subsystem eventually.
Funny thing to me is how in a magical duel between a sorcerer and a wizard of the same level, a sorcerer can declare dispel magic to be a spontaneous heightening spell and thereby counter every single spell the wizard uses with equal force, resulting in the fight devolving into a battle of cantrips and things that cost spell points.
So we might need a different "magical duelling" subsystem eventually.
Depending on how many actions it takes to cast dispel (or perhaps it is a reacton), this could change the duel.
If it cost 1 action, the sorcerer has 2 actions left over to cast other spells, use powers, etc. while the wizard may have none (depending on spell cast).
If it is a reaction, the sorcerer can dispel one spell per round. If the wizard casts 3 1-action spells, 2 of them will still hit.
Of course, the sorcerer then has 3 (presumably undispelled) actions on their turn, so they still come out ahead.
and if they run out spells and powers, the sorcerer (presumably) has an unlimited number of cantrips (if that's still true as in pf1), and now they scale.
Meanwhile the wizard has a limited number of cantrips. When their out, he's done.
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Meanwhile the wizard has a limited number of cantrips. When their out, he's done.
The wizard doesn't have a limited number of cantrips. I don't know how many they can prepare, but they can cast them all day long with no trouble, same as the Sorcerer.
Same as they could in PF1, really. They just weren't worth it most of the time.
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and if they run out spells and powers, the sorcerer (presumably) has an unlimited number of cantrips (if that's still true as in pf1), and now they scale.
Meanwhile the wizard has a limited number of cantrips. When their out, he's done.
Why would you assume that the wizard's cantrip use would run out? Cantrips don't expend themselves when used, so what would make a wizard lose their cantrips?
Meanwhile the wizard has a limited number of cantrips. When their out, he's done.The wizard doesn't have a limited number of cantrips. I don't know how many they can prepare, but they can cast them all day long with no trouble, same as the Sorcerer.
Same as they could in PF1, really. They just weren't worth it most of the time.
They certainly couldn't in pf1. Look at the spells/day table for wizard. for 0 level spells (cantrips), they start with 3/day at 1st and go up to 4/day from 2nd level onward. Sorcerers don't even have such a column as it is explicitly stated
Cantrips: Sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known under "Spells Known." These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
Like you say, though it wasn't worth casting them most of the time (which is probably why you are under the illusion that wizards could cast unlimited cantrips)
Admittedly, I don't know for sure in pf2 that that is still true, I just assumed it was. It may be a balancing factor to give the wizard unlimited cantrips, though it kind of goes against the idea of them being prepared casters. We'll have to wait and see.
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We know how cantrips work for Wizards in PF2, actually. They prepare 4 at the beginning of the day along with all other spells and can then use them at-will for that day.
We don't know how they work for Sorcerers, and I'm hopeful they get a few extra to make up for the lack of being able to swap them out.
Meanwhile the wizard has a limited number of cantrips. When their out, he's done.The wizard doesn't have a limited number of cantrips. I don't know how many they can prepare, but they can cast them all day long with no trouble, same as the Sorcerer.
Same as they could in PF1, really. They just weren't worth it most of the time.
They certainly couldn't in pf1. Look at the spells/day table for wizard. for 0 level spells (cantrips), they start with 3/day at 1st and go up to 4/day from 2nd level onward. Sorcerers don't even have such a column as it is explicitly stated
Cantrips: Sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known under "Spells Known." These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.Like you say, though it wasn't worth casting them most of the time (which is probably why you are under the illusion that wizards could cast unlimited cantrips)
Admittedly, I don't know for sure in pf2 that that is still true, I just assumed it was. It may be a balancing factor to give the wizard unlimited cantrips, though it kind of goes against the idea of them being prepared casters. We'll have to wait and see.
Uh, no. From Wizard, under the Cantrips class feature:
Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from an opposition school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).
Every class in PF1 can cast their 0 level spells, whether they're Cantrips or Orisons, all day long. They never go away.
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I stand corrected.
My interpretation of this is that outside of the Heighten Metamagic feat, Casters will need to have the specific spell at the level that they wish to cast it on their spells known list.
There will likely be a feat similar to PF1 that will allow preparation of spells in higher level spell slots. I've got no idea if they will have a limit on it beyond that since it requires that Wizards prepare a spell in the spell slot ahead of time.
Wizards have always been known to be the more flexible between the two casters provided they have time to prepare.
With that said I did like the concept that someone else shared of sorcerer's getting a number of spells they can auto-heighten in addition to all of their bonus spells they get from their bloodline. That was a neat twist.
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My interpretation of this is that outside of the Heighten Metamagic feat, Casters will need to have the specific spell at the level that they wish to cast it on their spells known list.
There will likely be a feat similar to PF1 that will allow preparation of spells in higher level spell slots. I've got no idea if they will have a limit on it beyond that since it requires that Wizards prepare a spell in the spell slot ahead of time.
Wizards have always been known to be the more flexible between the two casters provided they have time to prepare.
With that said I did like the concept that someone else shared of sorcerer's getting a number of spells they can auto-heighten in addition to all of their bonus spells they get from their bloodline. That was a neat twist.
This has already been corrected in the thread. You're off base with several assumptions.
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Yeah, sorcerers have to learn both invisibility and greater invisibility now. They can't get away with only knowing the lower level spell. If they want to cast both, they need to know both. Whereas prepared casters are super ahead. They get to prepare both invisibility and greater invisibility if they want to cast both spells.
What do y'all mean now? Or that they got a nerf? Spontaneous casters didn't lose anything. They had to learn both invisibility and greater invisibility before.
It is just prepared casters got something and spontaneous didn't get as much of it. Instead they got the ability to choose how to heighten a spell on the fly, which the prepared caster doesn't have.
Actually, that's only really true for wizards. Clerics and druids have always had full access to their entire spell list, and now they finally have a universal restriction from rarity. The wizard now gets more mileage from learning certain spells than they used to, definitely. But I get the impression that most folks who think wizards are OP don't think the cost for gaining more spells known was ever a super significant barrier to begin with. It cost 160 gold to copy Greater Invisibility for example. That isn't a huge saving between editions.
Meanwhile, the spells that get drastically different effects based on heightening will be prime candidates for spontaneous heightening.
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In fact, I'll go even further and say sorcerers get more from this system than a wizard does, when you compare where they were last edition.
The wizard gained the ability to save a fairly paltry amount of gold where specific Greater versions of spells have been collapsed into a single heightened spell.
The sorcerer gained the ability to essentially learn new spells every day. A sorcerer who knows invisibility can choose to now know Greater Invisibility that day without burning a permanent spell known. And that's a weak choice for spontaneous heightening. A sorc who knows Summon Monster I can now gain Summon Monster II-IX without expending any of her higher level spells known. That is much more valuable to a sorcerer than saving a little gold was to a wizard, IMO.
Obviously the sorcerer would be even stronger if it gained spontaneous heightening on all the spells known. But let's not pretend the sorcerer isn't better off than they used to be in relation to the wizard, cleric, or druid. Especially considering they gain new spell levels at the same pace now. (Where the sorcerer has been actively nerfed is stuff that seems to cut across all casters equally, like having less spell slots or no automatic caster level scaling.)
I think you may be forgetting that ALL spellcasters were nerfed in the sense that spells no longer scale in potency with caster level anymore. Prepared casters can get increased potency AND higher level versions when available by preparing a spell in a higher slot; spontaneous casters (well, the sorcerer, anyway; the bard preview was rather vague on this point) only get their 2/day spont heighten, and the only way around that is spending Spells Known, which is already stretched thin.What do y'all mean now? Or that they got a nerf? Spontaneous casters didn't lose anything. They had to learn both invisibility and greater invisibility before.
It is just prepared casters got something and spontaneous didn't get as much of it. Instead they got the ability to choose how to heighten a spell on the fly, which the prepared caster doesn't have.
Actually, that's only really true for wizards. Clerics and druids have always had full access to their entire spell list, and now they finally have a universal restriction from rarity. The wizard now gets more mileage from learning certain spells than they used to, definitely. But I get the impression that most folks who think wizards are OP don't think the cost for gaining more spells known was ever a super significant barrier to begin with. It cost 160 gold to copy Greater Invisibility for example. That isn't a huge saving between editions.
Meanwhile, the spells that get drastically different effects based on heightening will be prime candidates for spontaneous heightening.
No, I actually mentioned this in my second post and tried to edit into my first post but the forum ate it.
The problem with that as a point of comparison is two fold. One, the sorcerer isn't losing anything the wizard doesn't also lose. She just gets less from a new thing.
Two, the wizard heightening a spell means they are giving up a precious higher level slot instead of using it for some other powerful effect. So a 10 level wizard who prepares a 5th level fireball is paying the price of not being to prep Cone of Cold in said slot, for example. A specialist can only have 4 spells of a given level prepared, after all.
By comparison, the 10th level sorcerer can choose fireball for spontaneous heightening (or whatever other spell) and now effectively has 5 top level spell "prepared" and can use them with all the flexibility spontaneous has always provided.
Assuming lower level blasts drop off in effectiveness, the sorcerer can also just swap out fireball for something that provides utility and use the newest top of the line blast for those slots instead.
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If the wizard had to learn every version of a spell to get around the auto-scale nerf, he'd be doing so by leveraging his strength (unbound spell access). The sorcerer has to lean even more heavily on his weakness (limited spells known) to compensate. Adding the 2/day spont heighten is a bandaid, and is thematically odd (having to decide what these spells are at the beginning of the day, reminiscent of prepared spellcasting). It would be slightly better if these slots were decided spontaneously as well.
The wizard still has to lean heavily into their weakness (limited and very specific spells prepared) and is doing it in a suboptimal manner anyway, since heightened spells do less damage than spells that just are that level. Yeah, you can prepare Magic Missile as a 9th level spell. But I'd hazard a guess you would only ever do that when you know ahead of time you will be fighting something weak to magic missile. But you also need to predict exactly how many magic missiles you'll need across different levels and then lose additional options for it.
In that situation, the sorcerer gives up a valuable resource for the day to cast 9th level magic missiles, but that resource lets them now cast magic missile with every spell slot they have while still retaining the option to cast the rest of their spells.
So a wizard who fills all 4 9th level slots with magic missile because he is fighting a ghost that day has given up their ability to cast any other 9th level spells. The sorcerer has not.
What happens if four level 9 magic missiles winds up not being enough? Did the wizard also pay the toll of all their 8th level slots being magic missile? Because the sorcerer did.
What happens if the ghost has warded themselves completely against magic missiles? Stuff could do this in PF1. Or what if the ghost has unexpected minions? Or has bounced and left something calling for a completely different strategy in its place?
You need really specific scenarios and perfect intelligence for the wizard to really shine here, is what I'm saying. And that has always been where prepared casters were at their best.
If this is the case, then I approve of what the clarified version does. It sounds pretty on point with balance. The ability to auto-heighten on the fly with 2 spells makes Sorcerer pretty flexible with those limited spells and allows them to change it every morning.
Where Wizards would still need to prepare the spells they want to use ahead of time. More rigid once prepared and more flexible when they are preparing.
All in all. A+