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Hi.We will be playing council of thieves.We will start at level 1 and we have a bloodrager(DD later), wit bard, spritualist, one other guy and me(As an unRogue).I want to play a phantom thief.I've read the archtype and liked it a lot but it concerns me.İf I pick this archtype I feel like I wont be able to help my team in anyway in combat.İs there anything I can do to change that?
Link: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo-rogue-a rchetypes/phantom-thief-rogue-archetype/
Stack it with the Underground Chemist archetype, since both only add to the Rogue Talents available and neither subtract from them. That opens up Preserve Organs and Mummification, for some resiliency later on.
You can literally take Combat Trick as many times as you want, it seems you should be able to assemble a decent martial character with that. Power Attack with a longspear and Combat Reflexes/Stand Still is three feats as a quick example that provides good utility.
I would imagine you could also be the party face pretty easy if you put any amount of focus into it. There are ways to convert intelligence skills to charisma, and you can take Skill Focus as Rogue Talents as many times as you want. Plus Vigilante Social Talents.
I think you will be better for your party than a Rogue focusing on sneak attack. Take a trait for Use Magic Device, and grow big with a reach weapon during combat. Keep the wand in a spring loaded wrist sheath.
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Keeping your combat simple and effective will be key, something that only takes a few feats and is done.
You could possibly forego Power Attack, since a 3/4 BAB character doesn't need anything subtracting from your attack rolls, anyways.
Here is an example without the Underground Chemist archetype, just Phantom Thief
Human
History of Terrors replaces Skilled
Military Tradition replaces Bonus Feat
EWP: Elven Curveblade
EWP: Elven Branched Spear
1. Weapon Finesse
2. Combat Trick: Weapon Focus Curveblade
3. Combat Reflexes
4. Combat Trick: Dirty Fighting
5. Improved Dirty Trick
6. Skill Focus: Diplomacy
FCB: Combat Trick: Medium Armor Prof.
7. Persuasive
8. Rogue Talent: Trapspotter
9. Iron Will
10. Rogue Talent: Minor Magic
11. Improved Iron Will
12. Rogue Talent: Major Magic
FCB: Combat Trick: Shield Prof.
13. Shield Focus
14. Combat Trick: Unhindering Shield
You get the idea. Extremely versatile character, you don't have to do everything or be the major damage dealer to be effective in combat.
You could spend Rogue Talents on Combat Trick for exotic weapon proficiency or shield proficiency or heavy armor proficiency, you don't have to use dexterity or Weapon Finesse, I just used it as an example because it seems to be what every Rogue does.
Do you have any idea how others in your party intend to build/play? If you do you can make something that compliments them. For example if someone (or yourself) intends to use disarm you could take Major Magic: Unseens Servant and instruct the Servant to move away weapons that are knocked to the ground.
Another useful 1st level spell is Blade Tutors Spirit as it reduces voluntary hit penalties. As such it’s worth using with two weapon fighting and Pirahna Strike (think power attack but for dex and limited to light weapons). As an unrogue just keep your dex high, use light/ finess weapons and your damage output should be fine.
If you want to go down the dirty trick rout you’d be better off taking the Underhanded Trick talent as this allows you to take the Greater Dirty trick feat early and prevents opponents removing blindness in the first round. Another interesting option at later levels is to take the Animal Ally feat for an animal companion or take Familar Bond: raven for a talking spy and scout.
Bloodrager DD: probably roar rip maim destroy.
Wit bard: probably buffs and minor debuffs. Social skills will be covered.
Spiritualist: second rate melee striker (x2) & weird utility? Maybe condition healing.
Unknown: ???
Maybe the unknown will be doing battlefield control of some sort, or archery or blasts. Or another melee striker. In any case it doesn't look like more melee strikers are needed.
Debuffs of some sort are possible for a phantom thief. Aiming at intimidate - dazzling display - rogue's edge (intimidate) would work. Dirty trick isn't as good because you're 3/4 BAB with no attack bonus short of getting minor magic (dazzling blade) or similar, but with enough feats it'd work.
Druids can do anything. They don't usually aim for fear effects (though it is possible) so I'll try doing a little more on that intimidate idea.
As a sneaky guy having darkvision saves you a lot of hassles. A half-orc can get darkvision 90', gets a bonus to intimidation as well and taking the human alternate favored class bonus gets you an extra talent at 7th, 13th and 19th levels. Feats, talents etc. (assuming unchained rogue) might go
1: Improved initiative, toughness, or whatever.
Finesse training 1: Weapon Finesse
Talent 2: Weapon training (rapier)
3: Dazzling display
Finesse training 3: Dex to damage with rapiers
Talent 4: Minor magic (message; useful if you're the scout)
Rogue's Edge 4: Intimidate
5: Unbalancing trick or Underhanded trick (not everything can be intimidated)
Talent 6: Major magic (monkey fish; also useful if you're the scout)
7: Greater dirty trick or Greater trip
Bonus Talent 7: Eerie disappearance
Rogue's Edge 7: Stealth
Talent 8: Ninja trick (redirect force)
9: Deadly aim or TWF
Advanced Talent 10: See in darkness
Rogue's Edge 10: Sense motive
11: Ranged trip or divine fighting technique (Cayden's blade and tankard)
Finesse Training 11: Dex to damage with daggers or light maces
Advanced Talent 12: Dampen presence
13: Relentless shot or improved TWF
Bonus Advanced Talent 13: Stalker talent (steely resolve)
Advanced Talent 14: Skill mastery
Rogue's Edge 14: Acrobatics?
The options with 'or' are the trip idea first, dirty trick second.
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Is it possiable to do it with steal combat maneuver?I just checked. I can do it with +18 at level 8.Is steal just terrible?I solved the combat problem with boots of speed and exotic weapon prof(curve blade) I can do +18/+18/+13 1d10+12 at level 8.Greater steal and imp steal helps a lot with steal so it is at 18.
EDİT:The unknown guy just chosed to play a catfolk Unrogue.Spritualist turned to a fighter(He will be doing VI from league of legends.)
I am thinking about the burglar archtype.
Dirty Trick as a rogue works fine so long as there's someone to help knock down the targets ac. Agile Manoeuvres can help boost CMB too. That said if you go down the trip rout and use a finesse weapon to do so you get to add your dex to CMB anyway.
I made up a phantom thief a while ago, with the sole focus on skills. Combat contribution became a bit tricky, but you can cherry-pick through the few cheap combat options and try to make best use of your skills. I decided for human (boring, but seems unbeatable when it comes to skills) and traded the bonus feat for the three Skill Focus feats at level 1, 8 and 16.
Human
Traits: Clever Wordplay, Pragmatic Activator
Str 8
Dex 12
Con 8 (move 2 points from Dex, Wis or Cha here, if you are concerned about a negative modifier)
Int 18+2
Wis 12
Cha 13
Level 1: Firing with a shortbow is good enough for the first level, but you can also demoralize a single foe with +12 (Skill Focus, Int 20 & Clever Wordplay) and do Heal checks with +8 (Skill Focus, Wis 12).
Level 2: The rogue talent Aspexia's Mysticism nets you Psychic Sensitivity, which adds new interesting options mainly to Linguistics and Heal.
Level 3: Thanks to the Pragmatic Activator trait Use Magic Device will be at +11 at this level, which could be used offensively or for the generic CLW wand. A focus on Perception is good to detect ambushes and a single points in each Knowledge skill (plus the Dilettante feat) help to figure out exotic monsters for the team.
Beyond that, you can take Master Craftsman, Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor at level 5, 7 and 9, for indirect contribution to combat.
When it comes to further archetypes on top of phantom thief, consider sanctified rogue. You probably won't need uncanny dodge (you are a ranged supporter), but +1 to your two weak saves is decent.
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I just want to note that a character possessing Aspexia's Mysticism in a Council of Thieves Adventure Path campaign unquestionably represents a time paradox. Be prepared for aeons and inevitables knocking at your door! ^_^
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I just want to note that a character possessing Aspexia's Mysticism in a Council of Thieves Adventure Path campaign unquestionably represents a time paradox. Be prepared for aeons and inevitables knocking at your door! ^_^
Bonus XP? Bring it on! :D
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We rolled for stats.I got 17-14-13-11-10-8.
19 went to dex for Elven curve blade.
14 went to int Beacuse I love int.
13 went to con because this is pathfinder and I like living.
8 went to str. 11 to wis for easier umd checks and 10 went to cha.
Why Aspexia's mysticism would be a paradox?
EDİT:I plan on takin dampen presence and other skill boosting stuff.Not sure on what kind of a vigilante talent to choose.Archtype doesnt mention your levels count as vigilante talents so I guess I will not be picking them.Oh and I solved the combat problem. +18/+18/+13 1d10+12 15-20/x2 is enough for me.
I would not worry about Vigilante Talents unless you are playing the face of the party and know exactly how to use it for maximum effect.
Honestly, the strengths of this archetype are in the Combat Trick and Skill Focus talents you can take at every even level.
The Minor/Major Magic talents should also be worked into your build, at least once each for added versatility.
The only actual Rogue Talents I see as any real contribution to your character are Trapspotter and Slow Reactions.
Stacking Sanctified Rogue to boost weak saves isn't a bad idea at all. But I definitely wouldn't waste a talent on the Occult Skill Unlocks via Psionic Sensitivity. If you read that stuff, it's useless more than not.
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I cant take slow reactions.It works on sneak attacks.Phantom blade replaces sneak attacks.I will be taking minor magic at level 2 and major with FCB.Trapspotter is okey but without trap finding I dont know how usefull it will be.Other characters can use perception to find traps.I dont think I will need it.I might be wrong on that.
Skill focus feats are nice but I have already taken one at level 1 for stealth.Combat trick is nice enough I guess but I am not sure what to use it on.
You are right about Slow Reactions, that is my bad.
Trapspotter just helps makes up for giving up the other trap stuff, it's still helpful if there are going to be traps about.
Combat Trick just means you never have to use an odd level feat for anything combat because you can take it at any even level pretty much for free.
Skill Focus is amazing. You can pump up the big five Knowledge skills for identifying enemies and put Cunning as an enchantment on your weapon to add big bonuses to confirming critical hits. Oh, and it helps you know everything.
You seem to still want to be a Rogue doing sneaky Rogue stuff without Sneak Attack, I don't understand the Skill Focus for Stealth or the Dampen Presence choice, but it's not my character and I don't know everything about the situation or role this character is to play.
I see giving up sneak attack as you are now just a dex fighter skill monkey. You can face for the party if needed, especially if you convert charisma skills to intelligence. You can also be a good debuff through Intimidate if you wanted to focus on those charisma skills. But I don't see the purpose of focusing on being sneaky without the extra damage associated with Sneak Attack. With all the Combat Trick talents you could be a decent archer with such a focus on dexterity and still be good with skills and social interactions. Pretty much anything but sneaky, in my opinion.
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I just want to be a dashing thief who is also very talented at infiltrating places.I cant exactly steal tresures to change people's heart's but meh.I dont need to be amazing at combat.I just should be able to pull my own weight.
EDİT:By good at infiltrating places I mean things like scent/blindsense/Blindsight/divination not working on me.Being amazing at linguistics,Disguise,stealth,climb,acrobathics...etc.So I can get in and out places fast and undetected.I should be able to bluff,lie my way through a lot of things and when all of that doesnt work I will have my keen curve blade to help me.So I wont be running from everything just because I dont have sneak attack.
EDİT:My team has a good damage output and a Party face.So I dont have to be the World ender for once.
I'm working on a Phantom Thief myself. She's a twin so I'm making her character work with her brother - a Dashing Thief Swashbuckler. Combined characters are pretty tough to do though, especially when one has less feats to spare than the other one.
If you want to be sneaky, I suggest the Rogue Talent Fast Stealth so you can move at full speed without a penalty to Stealth.
The Talent Assault Leader can be helpful in combat. Once a day, if you miss, an ally that's flanking with you can use an immediate action to make a single melee attack.
I would not worry about Vigilante Talents unless you are playing the face of the party and know exactly how to use it for maximum effect.
I would consider the two social talents from the Disciple's Doctrine Player companion if you can get "Rogue Level = Vigilante Level" from your GM. One of them in Social Grace for Knowledge Skills, and the other is "Choose 4 skills, you can always take 10 on them"; those seem useful for non-face characters.
Why Aspexia's mysticism would be a paradox?
The events that led to that talent's development and teaching are a direct result of the aftermath of the Council of Thieves Adventure Path. Thus, having it at the start of the Adventure Path would be paradoxical. ^_^
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Why Aspexia's mysticism would be a paradox?The events that led to that talent's development and teaching are a direct result of the aftermath of the Council of Thieves Adventure Path. Thus, having it at the start of the Adventure Path would be paradoxical. ^_^
Now I have to take that talent just because of that.
Psychic Sensitivity is useless, though. The occult skill unlocks can't hold a candle to the unlocks a UC Rogue already get through Edge or the Phantom Thief through Refined Education. It's literally wasting a talent just because it's cute in some time travel paradox back to the future sort of way.
And you explicitly cannot take the Social Grace Vigilante Talent, according to Broad Education. The only one I saw worth looking twice at was Entrepreneur.
Refined Education for Perception and Sense Motive should be at the top of the list, in my opinion.
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I checked Vigilante talents.I cant choose any meaningfull of them because my levels from rogue levels dont count as vigilante levels since it is not stated in archtype.So basicly that feature from broad education is a dead one.So it is basicly fluff.
EDİT:Checked Occult skill unlocks after years again.They didnt add anything to Occult skill unlock.Shame.I wont be picking that up aswell.They were so much fun before that FAQ about the occult skills hit the kineticist.
Just in case you don't know, you can have your Phantom Thief be Unchained.
Ok, just making sure. Oh, and if you have a crit fisher in your party, Butterfly's Sting could help him. When you confirm a crit, you can forgo the extra damage to give an auto-crit to the next ally that hits the target with a melee strike before your next turn. You need Combat Expertise for it.
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Some more thoughts on the skill focused phantom thief:
Refined Education needs until level 4 to really kick in (+2 bonus), that's why I'd use Skill Focus for the skills relevant for level 1 combat.
If you go with high Int, you also speak an impressive amount of languages from the beginning. Choose them carefully and hope for a cooperative GM, since secretely listening to foreign races / monsters and impressing them with speaking their own language can help.
The story feat City-locked adds 21 bonus points to skills upon completion: +1 on all 7 Dex skills and all 14 Int skills (counting Craft once). There is also a +1 bonus on three social skills, but I didn't count it since it only works in your settlement. The 21 points beat Dilettante (+2 on 10 Knowledge skills), Cunning (+1 per level), Fast Learner (potentially +1 per level) and everything else I found.
A cruel ranged weapon can further debuff a foe you demoralized. While the shortbow damage is pathetic later on (assuming no investment), the sickened condition is a solid helper for both your martial and caster allies.