Having made just such a character, I'm now feeling very trapped, since none of the operative abilities lend themselves well to unarmed strikes. Seems odd to me as the operative is essentially the ninja of this game.
Will there be any support in the near future, such as a feat or class ability option that allows operatives to use unarmed strikes with their trick attack?
Is he a vesk?
I second the request. Aside from making a Vesk, there's no way to make a martial artist that really works. Need a Feat to allow operatives to use Unarmed with Trick Attack and maybe a Feat to make them non-archaic, or allow gauntlets to synergize (at which point, they're not operative weapons, either...).
Having made just such a character, I'm now feeling very trapped, since none of the operative abilities lend themselves well to unarmed strikes.
Why are you trapped? Reading the rules of the class it tells you that unarmed strikes can't be used for trick attack. Reading what you wrote it seems you were surprised to find out that you can't make an opponent bleed with your hands. "Well what about a Baton Jet? How does that make you bleed!?" Touche... Maybe internal? It goes back to that tweet I sent you. Normal unarmed strikes are Archaic even if you get the improved unarmed strike feat. Tweet
Seems odd to me as the operative is essentially the ninja of this game.
Your idea of ninja might be different than other people's idea of ninja. Way to use trick attack 1 or Way to use trick attack 2
Will there be any support in the near future, such as a feat or class ability option that allows operatives to use unarmed strikes with their trick attack?
I think your best option is to house rule cybernetic arms doing baton damage. I mean it wouldn't really be a house rule because you can already do this. Alien Archive P.150 Cybernetic allows a creature to add a weapon and I see no reason why you can't add a knife or gauntlet to your arms. At that point, why is a baton an operative weapon and not a gauntlet? This goes back to my favorite Barbossa quote
I second the request. Aside from making a Vesk, there's no way to make a martial artist that really works.
You can make a Solarian with Solar Gauntlets or and cybernetic Blitz Soldier.
I'm playing a human operative.
It used to be a soldier 1/mechanic 8 in another game, but this new game that I'm porting the concept to already has a soldier and two mechanics. I also wanted a lot of skills. So I thought I'd use the same concept, but make him an operative.
Until I realized I would really be gimping myself by focusing on strength and unarmed strikes. Now I feel like I'm left with no good options. I could abandon the concept altogether, double up on soldiers in the party, or play a distinctly lackluster build.
The last option might still be worth pursuing if there is a reasonable expectation that new material around the corner might solve the issue.
What I really don't get is why certain weapons aren't operative weapons in the first place. I get that rifles, bazookas and chainsaws tend to break the theme, but batons, gloves/gauntlets, various knives, unarmed strikes and natural attacks should probably have been operative weapons too! I also don't get why operative weapons have to be weaker for everyone else. Why not just allow the operative additional benefits with operative weapons, while denying said benefits to non-operatives, and NOT otherwise penalizing anyone else who wants to use the weapon?
Well one issue with doing so is that if operative weapons did anywhere near to the amount of damage that standard weapons do any ranged character who has heavily invested into dex will be vary capable in melee as well. Strength's advantage right now is that it can be used to add damage as well as to hit bonuses. Dex only adds to hit, but has many many other benefits. IF I could use a rifle to great effect and then do anything close to what a melee specialist can do by switching to an operative weapon there would be no need to ever invest in strength. Especially because I could end up with a higher to hit bonus very easily as I only have to invest in 1 combat stat instead of two. Melee character have to put some points into dex or really suffer. Tha's why operative weapons have to do so much less damage than non operative weapons.
Now as to why some weapons aren't operative and others are, that's mostly a judgment call made by designers. I mean is unarmed strike really a dex based or strength based activity? It's both, but which is it more? Probably depends on style. What's going to be the most common style? That's where designers make a decision, but there isn't really a right answer.
One thing that I should note, I'm not against operatives being able to use unarmed strike to trick attack. I do think that balance needs to be maintained though. Maybe a good way to do this would be to create an exploit or two with unarmed stike in mind. Like a level 2 exploit lets you use unarmed strike as an operative weapon and gives you a flat d3 or d4 damage dice. Then a higher level exploit gives you some scaling on that such that it is less than or comparable to other operative weapons. I would also not allow them to use the feat's scaling or other abilities that modify unarmed strike as that could easliy lead to munchkin land.
What I really don't get is why certain weapons aren't operative weapons in the first place. I get that rifles, bazookas and chainsaws tend to break the theme, but batons, gloves/gauntlets, various knives, unarmed strikes and natural attacks should probably have been operative weapons too! I also don't get why operative weapons have to be weaker for everyone else. Why not just allow the operative additional benefits with operative weapons, while denying said benefits to non-operatives, and NOT otherwise penalizing anyone else who wants to use the weapon?
Main reasons would be how the operative works in general and for balance. Operative gets the option for 4 attacks. The the weapons weren't weaker this would be broken. They also get to use Dex as the main ability to confirm a hit instead of the normal Str. They also get highest skill count in the game and you have to balance that with something.
I mean there is nothing stopping an operative from using other weapons they just aren't that great with them. I personally like the idea of a Katana wielding operative. But they still can only trick attack when they use a knife.
Talk to your DM (unless it's a SFS or similar restrictive rules setting) about modifying the class abilities. Call it a Martial Artist Archetype where the only weapons that work are unarmed and gauntlet weapons instead of operative weapons?
I think martial arts will be in the game at some point, and operatives will be able to use them. However, I don't think it's "around the corner".
Main reasons would be how the operative works in general and for balance. Operative gets the option for 4 attacks. The the weapons weren't weaker this would be broken. They also get to use Dex as the main ability to confirm a hit instead of the normal Str. They also get highest skill count in the game and you have to balance that with something.
I mean there is nothing stopping an operative from using other weapons they just aren't that great with them. I personally like the idea of a Katana wielding operative. But they still can only trick attack when they use a knife.
At the rate improved unarmed strike scales the damage, it's already on par with other operative weapons, so in this case, the argument doesn't really work.
At the rate improved unarmed strike scales the damage, it's already on par with other operative weapons, so in this case, the argument doesn't really work.Main reasons would be how the operative works in general and for balance. Operative gets the option for 4 attacks. The the weapons weren't weaker this would be broken. They also get to use Dex as the main ability to confirm a hit instead of the normal Str. They also get highest skill count in the game and you have to balance that with something.
I mean there is nothing stopping an operative from using other weapons they just aren't that great with them. I personally like the idea of a Katana wielding operative. But they still can only trick attack when they use a knife.
Even if it does “scale” they are always archaic so does it really matter? Have fun with your martial artists.
The Bone Blade Necrograft (from Splintered Worlds) is an operative weapon if one wants to go a bit Wolverine, although that will be melee weapon, not unarmed. Anyway, that way you don't have to carry a weapon, it's always inside you. We even have a Kasatha with four of them just "because she can" :)
On a related note: Why does the archaic trait exist at all?
All its existence really accomplishes is:
1. Make punching less effective.
2. Make it harder for a primitive culture to fight back.
Given how both of those things are still true without the archaic weapons rule (lower damage whether you're trained or not), I don't see any need for it. We were apparently fine with characters punching armored knights in Pathfinder (and the damage was simply nonlethal for the untrained).
Whether or not you are willing to houserule it: Is there anyone here that can give me a solid reason as to why archaic *should* exist (other than to give characters a power trip when fighting a low-tech culture)?
Realism, probably.
Whether or not you are willing to houserule it: Is there anyone here that can give me a solid reason as to why archaic *should* exist (other than to give characters a power trip when fighting a low-tech culture)?
Would you believe Jason Keeley (one of the devs)? The way he described it was perfect.
To those that make a case for realism as a reason for the archaic weapon quality, I ask:
1) Realism dictates that a gun (or sword, or flamethrower) would cause greater harm (re: deal more damage) to a foe that is completely naked. This is not represented in the rules in any way. Why not?
2) I admit, I have never tested this, but I imagine there is little difference in reality between punching someone wearing "common-steel" and punching someone wearing a steel-reinforced carbon-fiber vest: you're still punching metal. The archaic property, however, differentiates between the two. Why?
3) Vesk martial arts consists of "claws and teeth...and formidable tail slaps", and it seems (because they don't have any sort of DR or hardness) that Vesk are made of normal, carbon-based flesh and bone. Why are their tails able to bruise someone through armor when a fist cannot?
4) A bow is "lower tech" than a gun, but it does not have the archaic weapon quality. Why not?
And to anyone claiming there is a mechanical or balance need for the archaic weapon quality
There are only three instances where a character, PC or NPC, would be using a weapon with the archaic quality: unarmed strikes, improvised weapon, or "low tech society", and I agree and those three things should be weaker.
However, even if you removed the archaic weapon quality entirely, all three of those would still be weaker. Even with the feat, unarmed strikes have the lowest average damage for their level, so they will still be less effective than using a weapon. The same goes for any improvised weapon.
When it comes to a low-tech society, they would already be weaker by only being able to access weapons 7th level or lower and not having guns. Analog weapons of a level higher than 7 have names that imply they are stronger because they are made using high-tech machinery (ultra-thin, molecular rift, etc.) that a low-tech culture could not access, and as a result, they would not be able to stand toe-to-toe with trained, well-equipped soldiers from another planet.
And that's not even getting to the disadvantage they would have from not having any grenades or firearms.
My conclusion is that this is an example of making a need for a rule that you want, rather than making a rule that there is a need for. The archaic property draws an arbitrary line that leaves plenty of unrealistic scenarios on either side, when instead, they could have just not made a distinction between "common-steel" armor and modern armor when it came to damage resistance. They certainly didn't with leather and steel in the past.
tl;dr No I haven't tried punching someone in powered armor, but neither have you. No one has. You made it up the way you want to.
Sparked by this thread, I created my interpretation of a monk as Solarian, which generally seems to work quite well. You can have the weapon look like whatever you like, so I went for claws. Combined with the Yin-Yang vibe of the class, it actually is quite a good fit in my opinion.
Sparked by this thread, I created my interpretation of a monk as Solarian, which generally seems to work quite well. You can have the weapon look like whatever you like, so I went for claws. Combined with the Yin-Yang vibe of the class, it actually is quite a good fit in my opinion.
That's what I recommend to players right now, because until we have a few more unarmed strike feats, there aren't many others.
tl;dr No I haven't tried punching someone in powered armor, but neither have you. No one has. You made it up the way you want to.
Punching powered armor is the same as punching a car. It hurts to punch metal with a fleshy fist. Even Mike Tyson isn’t running around punching metal and he has arguably one of the strongest punch in boxing.
Personally I agree with Big Lemon. The Archaic quality is really rather arbitrary. That being said I do still intend to use it.
• Pathfinder and Starfinder are different systems set in the same universe. The sooner everyone remembers that these are different systems, the sooner we won’t have to debate the rules between the two games. The rules are different.
• Definition “Arbitrary - based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.” There was a reason given on why punching metal with your fists does less damage and the response is to say Fake News and disregarded it? If you want to continue using the word “arbitrary” that’s fine but that’s like using the word “literally” incorrectly.MY only exception is that "improved unarmed strike" will take away the archaic property. This comes from the thought process that, as someone who is fighting in this hyper technology world, you would train your strikes to specifically target weak spots in said power armor.
• You cannot train yourself to jump over a three story building even if you had a running start. Your squishy physical body has limitations. That’s why I mentioned cybernetics or being a Solarian with solarfists as options to increasing unarmed attack damage.
But let’s look at “weak spots” for the battle harness.
BATTLE HARNESS
EAC BONUS +9 KAC BONUS +12
MAX DEX BONUS +2 ARMOR CHECK PENALTY –4 SPEED 30 feet
STRENGTH 18 (+4) DAMAGE 1d10 B SIZE Medium
CAPACITY 20 USAGE 1/hour
WEAPON SLOTS 1 UPGRADE SLOTS 1 BULK 20
Basically looking at the AC it’s on par with Vesk Overplate 1 which is a level 6 armor.
Vesk Overplate (I–V)
These utilitarian suits of heavy armor reflect the brute strength of their inventors. Overplate makes no concession to comfort. Instead, each polycarbonate suit is solid, dense, and often unadorned, though the high-quality craftsmanship of each suit is apparent. Overplate has a reputation for withstanding any sort of trauma, thanks to its coating of thermoplastic resin.
I mean I guess vesk engineers could place a weak spot in Vesk Overplate that a tiny human fist could penetrate but… Wouldn’t that defeat the purpose?
But this is only looking at the battle harness. What about a flight frame which is essentially the size of a gundam.
FLIGHT FRAME
EAC BONUS +12 KAC BONUS +19
MAX DEX BONUS +3 ARMOR CHECK PENALTY –5 SPEED 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average)
STRENGTH 22 (+6) DAMAGE 2d6 B SIZE Huge
(10-foot reach)
CAPACITY 100 USAGE 1/minute
WEAPON SLOTS 3 UPGRADE SLOTS 4 BULK 40
Can you point out where the weak spot is here? You guys may think it’s “arbitrary” but I think the devs put a lot of thought into the math of this game. Most of it is streamlined for fun factor and simplicity but it still makes sense. Again, play how you want but when I search for heavy armor on the internet I don’t see a lot of “weak points”.
tl;dr No I haven't tried punching someone in powered armor, but neither have you. No one has. You made it up the way you want to.Punching powered armor is the same as punching a car. It hurts to punch metal with a fleshy fist. Even Mike Tyson isn’t running around punching metal and he has arguably one of the strongest punch in boxing.
There was a reason given on why punching metal with your fists does less damage and the response is to say Fake News and disregarded it?
I did not disregard, I disagreed with it, for four solid reasons. You may have missed them. I'll repeat myself, with more bolded text this time:
Archaic: This weapon deals 5 fewer damage unless the target is wearing no armor or archaic armor. Archaic weapons are made of primitive materials such as wood or common steel.
Reasons Why This Fits the Definition of Arbitrary
1) By the same logic that mandates punching a foe in armor is less effective, Realism dictates that a gun (or sword, or flamethrower) would cause greater harm (re: deal more damage) to a foe that is completely naked. This is not represented in the rules in any way. Why not?
2) There is little difference in reality between punching someone wearing "common-steel" and punching someone wearing a steel-reinforced carbon-fiber vest: you're still punching metal. The archaic property, however, allows me to punch steel plate armor and deal full damage. Why?
3) Vesk unarmed strikes are not archaic. Their martial arts consists of "claws and teeth...and formidable tail slaps", and it seems (because they don't have any sort of DR or hardness) that Vesk are made of normal, carbon-based flesh and bone. Why are vesk teeth and tails able to deal full damage through armor when a fist cannot?
4) A bow is "lower tech" than a gun, but it does not have the archaic weapon quality and does the same base damage as a pistol. Why?
Unless there is also a reason for each of these, the devs (and any proponent of the archaic weapon rule) simply decided based on personal whim rather than any reason that all 4 of the above were not archaic, but unarmed strikes were. Ergo, it was an arbitrary decision.
Side note: You keep bringing up power armor, but the archaic property is not power-armor specific. It reduces damage to all armor types, regardless of weight or material, equally. Including Second Skin:
This flexible body stocking fits tightly against its wearer and can be worn under ordinary clothes
If we were really talking about just punching power armor, I'd probably agree with you. But we aren't, so I don't.
Main argument VS archaic rule (not only for unarmed strikes) is that it does not apply to things like a zombie's slam
I believe most of these rules were designed around keeping a PCs natural weapons (like the vesk) relevant compared to how anyone can utilize the improved unarmed strike feat. Unarmed attacks are incredibly versatile... they don’t need to be disguised, you don’t even need free hands to utilize them, and you can’t be disarmed (except literally). That being said, improved unarmed attacks probably should be allowed as an operative weapon as long as you’re not using the ring of fangs. This thread has convinced me that I should wait for an official ruling on whether they stay archaic or not.
The problem with them staying archaic even after you take the feat is that basically there is no reason to take the feat until it scales to 2d6 damage as you can't do hardly anything with it. Even then it's not great and only becomes ok as a backup at higher levels. That is a long long time to wait for a feat you can take at level 1 to become useful. IF it did remove the archaic penalty then all of a sudden matial artist characters become viable at level 1 if not optimal.
SF bows don't have a STR rating, so they are high tech. However, the real reason why this question is lame is that it's the arrows that really need to not be archaic, not the bow.
arrows are archaic when used in a bow from Dead Suns 4, and are not when used in a bow from Core Book. Just like a fist from a zombie is not archaic but a fist from a martial artist is, even if the zombie has less str and do less damage.
And the reason for that, is Archaic is an arbitrary tag, arbitrarily given to some stuff. No rationalization will change that.
SF bows don't have a STR rating, so they are high tech. However, the real reason why this question is lame is that it's the arrows that really need to not be archaic, not the bow.arrows are archaic when used in a bow from Dead Suns 4, and are not when used in a bow from Core Book. Just like a fist from a zombie is not archaic but a fist from a martial artist is, even if the zombie has less str and do less damage.
And the reason for that, is Archaic is an arbitrary tag, arbitrarily given to some stuff. No rationalization will change that.
This.
Fun fact: if a zombie learns martial arts, he could choose to either aim his fist to weak spots, strongly adding impulse with his hips from countless hours of training, and do - 5 damage, or cassualy let the fist drop over the target while shouting "braaaaainnns", and be non archaic.
They let them use knives and arrows, and batons. And fangs or tails. So not sure about that
Man, I would have saved myself a hell of a lot of time if I thought about zombies... and here I thought I was so clever!
On a related note: Why does the archaic trait exist at all?
All its existence really accomplishes is:
1. Make punching less effective.
2. Make it harder for a primitive culture to fight back.Given how both of those things are still true without the archaic weapons rule (lower damage whether you're trained or not), I don't see any need for it. We were apparently fine with characters punching armored knights in Pathfinder (and the damage was simply nonlethal for the untrained).
Whether or not you are willing to houserule it: Is there anyone here that can give me a solid reason as to why archaic *should* exist (other than to give characters a power trip when fighting a low-tech culture)?
For armor it basically is does it have fancy high tech life support frills or not. The archaic stuff still protects you about as normal but it does not support mod slots and it does not have any of the life support extra frills normal advanced armor has. So it makes sense for their to be some differentiation there primitive people have no need for self contained air supplies on all their armor.
For weapons given force fields are integrated at some level in a lot of advanced armor it makes sense fists and ancient weapons don't have the penetration aids needed to function at full effectiveness against them.
The thing is that the universe is too cosmopolitan for martial arts attacks used on one species to have any effect at all on several others.
This isn't Star Trek, where everybody you see has the same nerves in the neck and shoulders that will cause exactly that response when pinched at exactly that point. When most unarmed humans punch a Vesk, the only response they'll get is a look that says "Oh, Really?" When most humans punch someone wearing even rudimentary combat gear, the only thing they'll get for their trouble is a broken hand and a quizzical look from their target. Some species might not even view a punch as an attack at all -- I can easily imagine two Vesk Soldiers who haven't seen each other in a long time trading blows that would cripple a human as a form of greeting, followed by loud laughter or its Vesk equivalent.
On a related note: Why does the archaic trait exist at all?
All its existence really accomplishes is:
1. Make punching less effective.
2. Make it harder for a primitive culture to fight back.Given how both of those things are still true without the archaic weapons rule (lower damage whether you're trained or not), I don't see any need for it. We were apparently fine with characters punching armored knights in Pathfinder (and the damage was simply nonlethal for the untrained).
Whether or not you are willing to houserule it: Is there anyone here that can give me a solid reason as to why archaic *should* exist (other than to give characters a power trip when fighting a low-tech culture)?
For armor it basically is does it have fancy high tech life support frills or not. The archaic stuff still protects you about as normal but it does not support mod slots and it does not have any of the life support extra frills normal advanced armor has. So it makes sense for their to be some differentiation there primitive people have no need for self contained air supplies on all their armor.
For weapons given force fields are integrated at some level in a lot of advanced armor it makes sense fists and ancient weapons don't have the penetration aids needed to function at full effectiveness against them.
Magic is a potential equalizer primitive cultures might have at their disposal. Invading a world that runs by Pathfinder rules is a dangerous pastime. Most of their armies might be pushovers, at first, but they have really powerful spells and a lot more time to practice using them. Those spells eclipse a lot of what Starfinder magic can do. Imagining ancient Golarion being attacked by high-tech aliens would be an interesting thought exercise, or potential game concept.
In Pathfinder, 20th-level characters can have spells that bring down castles around them. It would make sense that they could wreak similar havoc on an unprepared starship. In fact, the pre-gap ancestors of the Vesk might have had starmaps with the Golarion system circled in deep red with the warning 'DON'T TOUCH!" because the Vesk are not at all prepared to mess with these people.
Remember that my position was never "reducing the damage of unarmed strikes vs. armor is unrealistc"
it is and has always been "the application of the archaic property is arbitrary and unnecessary". To Summarize:
It is arbirtrary because there are a number of non-archaic things (like zombie fists) that should by the same logic also do less damage to armored targets, but don't, and there are no weapons that do the reverse (more damage to unarmored targets). Devs simply decided to use this logic on unarmed strikes and nowhere else.
It is unecessary because unarmed strikes still do slightly-less damage than knives and batons even if the archaic quality is removed, as we all agree they should. Realism is preserved, balance in the universe is maintained.
IMO, the argument was settled when zombie fists were brought up. Unless one (abrirtrarily) invents a whole host of fluff-reasons that have no basis in the rules we are given, this one cannot be rationalized.
Magic is a potential equalizer primitive cultures might have at their disposal. Invading a world that runs by Pathfinder rules is a dangerous pastime. Most of their armies might be pushovers, at first, but they have really powerful spells and a lot more time to practice using them. Those spells eclipse a lot of what Starfinder magic can do. Imagining ancient Golarion being attacked by high-tech aliens would be an interesting thought exercise, or potential game concept.
In Pathfinder, 20th-level characters can have spells that bring down castles around them. It would make sense that they could wreak similar havoc on an unprepared starship. In fact, the pre-gap ancestors of the Vesk might have had starmaps with the Golarion system circled in deep red with the warning 'DON'T TOUCH!" because the Vesk are not at all prepared to mess with these people.
Starfinder has published adventures dealing with primitives. Their spellcasters are not any more a problem than modern ones.
Orbital artillery is good fire support, but you'll still need someone to land if you want to conquer the place. Even if you just want to raid and make off with some goodies you'll need someone to land.
The only way ortillery could entirely substitute for boots on the ground is if you just want to kill some people, no more. Justice or vengeance or pure evil, something like that.
Getting kind of off topic though. What's the real argument for unarmed human(ish) martial artists not ever being a thing? I find it hard to believe it's a purely realism argument based as such would tend to make all melee a marginal thing. Is it just that it hasn't been published (yet) and some people will defend anything?
The thing is that the universe is too cosmopolitan for martial arts attacks used on one species to have any effect at all on several others.
This isn't Star Trek, where everybody you see has the same nerves in the neck and shoulders that will cause exactly that response when pinched at exactly that point. When most unarmed humans punch a Vesk, the only response they'll get is a look that says "Oh, Really?" When most humans punch someone wearing even rudimentary combat gear, the only thing they'll get for their trouble is a broken hand and a quizzical look from their target. Some species might not even view a punch as an attack at all -- I can easily imagine two Vesk Soldiers who haven't seen each other in a long time trading blows that would cripple a human as a form of greeting, followed by loud laughter or its Vesk equivalent.
Not true. You can punch a Vesk in plate armor just fine what you can't do is punching him in second skin armor, because second skin is not labeled with the arbitrary archaic tag
And then you have the Enhanced Resistance feat, which basically allows you to walk naked through bullets or fire or acid or lightning and come out the other side relatively or even entirely unscathed...
But using your feat-granted training and your (non-zombie) fists against a guy in (non-archaic, as you can punch plate armor just fine) armor effectively, that is where the line is drawn. Even if as a melee-focused character your Strength can match or even surpass that of a rhinoceros. And while the hardness of your fist versus the hardness of non-archaic armor does play a role, I will once again refer you to the Enhanced Resistance feat and nekkidness. :-)
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Enhanced Resistance very much doesn't allow you to walk naked through bullets, fire, or acid, at least at equivalent CR encounter levels. Any appropriate scale enemy will basically just have its damage bonus negated by the resistance...IF it uses the kind of damage that you have DR for. Enhanced Resistance is very much a mitigating factor used by a tank in conjunction with armor, not a replacement for armor.
Zombie fists are ultimately powered by necromancy. I don't see how them being non-archaic is problematic... regardless, zombies are monsters and they have different rules for their stats. You could rule, if you wished, that they are actually doing +5 damage, but that isn't listed in their stats because the game assumes that the PCs are wearing non-archaic armor.
Already in Incident at Absolom Station we have NPC enemies using clubs that don't get the -5 damage in their stat blocks... the same clubs would be instantly penalized if the PCs picked them up. This is fine, because they're NPC enemies, and those clubs are basically treasure with no specific relation to their stats.
I am simply saying that while the idea of fists fully working against non-archaic armor after taking a relevant feat may seem absurd to some, the fact that one can actually shrug off bullets or fire or acid while literally naked (as the feat is not dependent on wearing armor), partially or entirely, may seem (more) plausible. To me either both are equally absurd or equally plausible, as both are about flesh and bone going up against metal and other hard materials (as well as other harmful stuff in the case of Enhanced Resistance).
The fact that the same weapon works differently when held by a PC and an NPC does not help convince me that the archaic thing is not arbitrary by the way. Not that you are necessarily trying to, of course. I am speaking in general.
Our GM remembered to penalize them. Total cakewalk.
... (bunch of rationalization)...
It is irrelevant if a zombie fist is powered by necromancy or a nuclear power plant, it still does much less damage than a martial artist unarmed attack and uses his knuckles but if you want, I change the example. A monkey do damage VS a power armor just fine. No, not a gorilla. A monkey. Do does any creature, regardless of how weak or strong it is, as long as it uses "Slam".
For no other reason than the fact that Archaic is used arbitrarily .NPC have different modifiers than PC, but use gear anyways. A laser in NPC hands still do burn as crit. A scattergun is still blast. And clubs are still archaic.
Even if you want to ignore that in IaAS, Ruined Clouds still has NPC in archaic armor and with archaic weapons. And those weapons do less damage because (arbitrary) reasons.
For example, you can add a breather, a gas filter, some mag boots and a radiation shield to an archaic plate and make it non archaic for 10,% of cost. And suddenly it stop battle bows, clubs and fists much better. Because... (arbitrary) reasons.