Capstone Abilities need a rework


Prerelease Discussion


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Currently Capstone Abilities are unique class features each class receives at level 20. They represent a significant power upgrade for the class, often the ultimate expression of that class. They also almost never come up in play, unlike an MMO or other video game with "Ultimate" abilities, Pathfinder has almost no official content aimed at 20th level characters. Even games that get to level 20, will in the vast majority play a few sessions at that level and then finish. Capstone abilities are on the page to tempt you, but you never get to use them.

Proposal: Move capstone abilities to a lower level, maybe 15 where you might actually get to use them. If need be require someone using a capstone to be a single classed character.


Point of order; for all you know twentieth level under the new system might see more play. They may create content for it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

They might indeed see more play, however its still likely to be the level of the game people play least and part of the fun of Pathfinder is acquiring new abilities, new levels, new gear and at 20 you stop getting new levels and abilities and so become more likely to go play a new character in a fresh adventure.


They only get to be very powerful because they don’t see much play, and vice versa.

Paizo is working to make high-level play more enjoyable (easier, faster, less rocket-tag). They are simplifying monster stats, so they might be able to publish more level 20 material. And, finally, each class gets a choice of capstones, so people will probably be more interested in trying it out.


What a bout a midway milestone ability thats like half the cappstone?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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I suggest a "floating" capstone. Clearly label the ability as a capstone without specifying the level you get it, with the idea that the GM gets to decide what level it appear at. APs could suggest a level for them. For example, an AP that ends with the PCs just tipping over to 18 might set the capstone level at 17. That way the players get to have their cool toy for a level or so even if the campaign never hits 20.


Or they could maybe consistently have each class get increasingly nice "milestone" abilities at, say, 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th level, so even if you don't ever make it to 20, you still feel like you're improving.

Silver Crusade

Relevant:

Mark Seifter wrote:
thflame wrote:

Will there be capstones(AKA Level 20 prerequisite Class Feats)?

The best part of that kind of capstone is that you get to choose your capstone! Not everyone was always well-served by the capstones in PF1 (for instance, omnikinesis, the ability to use any wild talent in the game, is a very powerful capstone, but it doesn't necessarily fit a fully focused kineticist, even though the class lets you build a fully effective single-element kineticist up to that point).


From Another Thread

Mark Seifter wrote:
thflame wrote:

Will there be capstones(AKA Level 20 prerequisite Class Feats)?

The best part of that kind of capstone is that you get to choose your capstone! Not everyone was always well-served by the capstones in PF1 (for instance, omnikinesis, the ability to use any wild talent in the game, is a very powerful capstone, but it doesn't necessarily fit a fully focused kineticist, even though the class lets you build a fully effective single-element kineticist up to that point).

Dang It I got Ninja'd

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Choosing your capstone still doesn't matter if you never get to go to 20. Of course, with the changes to the XP system, maybe the average AP will start going to 20. *fingers crossed*


So what do you get at level 20, then? Something better than your proposed ability? It's just gonna be an infinite cycle.


I think you'll see a lot more level tiers for class feats, so that rather than just basic and major rogue talents/hexes, you'll see pools that become successively more useful as you level. The Technomancer magic hacks in Starfinder are an example, there are something like 5 tiers, one for each level where you get access to a new hack. You can use a hack to take a lower level one if you want, but generally there's a cooler option at higher level.

In this scheme, level 20 class feats are really cool and powerful, and you choose which you want for your capstone.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

ChibiNyan wrote:
So what do you get at level 20, then? Something better than your proposed ability? It's just gonna be an infinite cycle.

Thus my proposal to change the capstone from "level 20" to "end level of the campaign, whatever that is."

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