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Has any thought been put into improving the standard character sheets?
I'm the creator of a set of very non-standard character sheets which quite a few people prefer over the standard one. And while I don't expect the official character sheets for PF2 to look just like mine (it would be kind of troublesome if they did), there are some important ways the basic sheet could be better.
- The grouping of elements is not very logical. It shows signs of "find somewhere to shove this" rather than logical planning.
- Inconsistent labelling makes it harder to find things.
- Not enough help for working out calculations, ie where all these numbers come from.
- The assumption that one size fits all leads to some elements being too small. For example, the spell list is far too small to be useful for a spellcasting class, but still takes up lots of space for any non-spellcasting class.
- A lot of unique class features simply have no representation at all. Ki? Grit? Sneak attack? Rounds of rage per day? Domain? All missing a home.
- Heavy black means that pencil doesn't stand out.
The current basic character sheet is basically a continuation of the 3rd edition style. I hope Paizo can take the opportunity of a new system to make a better character sheet.
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We got a peek at the sheet during the PaizoCon banquet!
Not much could be seen because the resolution was bad on Twitch, but the layout and visual style was apparent... and sounds VERY different from what we're used to!
Lot of circles.
Stats on the bottom.
Landscape layout...
What's everyone opinion?
I'm very excited, the Sheets are always the FIRST thing I look at when I look up a new system, because it's the thing we'll look at the most when playing. I love it when I can deduce some of the rules just looking at the sheet. That new one seems very interesting (and I believe I spotted there was 18 skills?
[Sorry for the hijack :P BTW, always using your sheets, and everyone I introduced to them found them awesome.]
Well, I'm glad to hear that they've put some thought into a new design, rather than just going with a "good enough" refit. I look forward to seeing it.
Huh. I never noticed it until you mentioned it Elfteiroh... It IS very different.
Here's what I can see starting from the bottom right:
Special Actions and Reactions section
Skills
Melee Attacks
Ranged Attacks
Not sure what's above that...
Going to the bottom left, Ability scores
AC
Saves
The rest is covered...
Very interesting format. I wonder if this could be a PC character sheet or could potentially be a animal companion character sheet?...
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Huh. I never noticed it until you mentioned it Elfteiroh... It IS very different.
Here's what I can see starting from the bottom right:
Special Actions and Reactions section
Skills
Melee Attacks
Ranged Attacks
Not sure what's above that...
Going to the bottom left, Ability scores
AC
Saves
The rest is covered...
Very interesting format. I wonder if this could be a PC character sheet or could potentially be a animal companion character sheet?...
It's written "Pathfinder Character Sheet" at the top, right in the middle. :P
But yeah! You got better reading skills (or a way to get a better picture on that stream!) than me!I like that the proficiency system is always 4 circles, almost reminds me of the World of Darkness character sheets. I wonder why the Athletics and Acrobatics skills have extra squares at the end? A place to record bonus specifically for combat maneuvers?
At the top, they are clearly proficiencies... but for what? I think the rightmost one looks like it's written "Armor Proficiencies"? With Light, Medium, Heavy and Shield just below with the 4 ratings... So the other one would be weapons? And the line would be to specify an Exotic Proficiency?
(TBH, I would have separated the Physical/Mental stats by column, STR/DEX/CON in a column, INT/WIS/CHA in the other.)
Huh. I never noticed it until you mentioned it Elfteiroh... It IS very different.
Here's what I can see starting from the bottom right:
Special Actions and Reactions section
Skills
Melee Attacks
Ranged Attacks
Not sure what's above that...
Going to the bottom left, Ability scores
AC
Saves
The rest is covered...
Very interesting format. I wonder if this could be a PC character sheet or could potentially be a animal companion character sheet?...It's written "Pathfinder Character Sheet" at the top, right in the middle. :P
But yeah! You got better reading skills (or a way to get a better picture on that stream!) than me!
I like that the proficiency system is always 4 circles, almost reminds me of the World of Darkness character sheets. I wonder why the Athletics and Acrobatics skills have extra squares at the end? A place to record bonus specifically for combat maneuvers?
At the top, they are clearly proficiencies... but for what? I think the rightmost one looks like it's written "Armor Proficiencies"? With Light, Medium, Heavy and Shield just below with the 4 ratings... So the other one would be weapons? And the line would be to specify an Exotic Proficiency?
(TBH, I would have separated the Physical/Mental stats by column, STR/DEX/CON in a column, INT/WIS/CHA in the other.)
Yeah, I do like the 4 proficiency circles that they have there. Pretty cool. As someone who played the Playtest multiple times during Paizocon, I can confirm that the extra square is for combat manoeuvres. Both Seelah and Valeros had two numbers in athletics. One regular, one for combat manoeuvres.
I don't know what the circles on the top right are, but I'm guessing they are not Armor proficiencies. I already see proficiency circles in the Armor Class section above the ability scores. But I don't have a better guess tho...Also, i do agree, the order of the ability stats are a little weird...
Huh. I never noticed it until you mentioned it Elfteiroh... It IS very different.
Here's what I can see starting from the bottom right:
Special Actions and Reactions section
Skills
Melee Attacks
Ranged Attacks
Not sure what's above that...
Going to the bottom left, Ability scores
AC
Saves
The rest is covered...
Very interesting format. I wonder if this could be a PC character sheet or could potentially be a animal companion character sheet?...It's written "Pathfinder Character Sheet" at the top, right in the middle. :P
But yeah! You got better reading skills (or a way to get a better picture on that stream!) than me!
I like that the proficiency system is always 4 circles, almost reminds me of the World of Darkness character sheets. I wonder why the Athletics and Acrobatics skills have extra squares at the end? A place to record bonus specifically for combat maneuvers?
At the top, they are clearly proficiencies... but for what? I think the rightmost one looks like it's written "Armor Proficiencies"? With Light, Medium, Heavy and Shield just below with the 4 ratings... So the other one would be weapons? And the line would be to specify an Exotic Proficiency?
(TBH, I would have separated the Physical/Mental stats by column, STR/DEX/CON in a column, INT/WIS/CHA in the other.)
Yeah, I do like the 4 proficiency circles that they have there. Pretty cool. As someone who played the Playtest multiple times during Paizocon, I can confirm that the extra square is for combat manoeuvres. Both Seelah and Valeros had two numbers in athletics. One regular, one for combat manoeuvres.
I don't know what the circles on the top right are, but I'm guessing they are not Armor proficiencies. I already see proficiency circles in the Armor Class section above the ability scores. But I don't have a better guess tho...Also, I do agree, the order of the ability stats are a little weird...
Anybody got a time stamp to look at for the character sheet?
1:23.00
Behind intro to Lini...
Is there a high-res version of that video somewhere? I can't see it very clearly on Twitch.
Or better yet, anyone who was in the playtest snap a photo of one of the sheets? Or would that violate an NDA or something?
Outside one guy on YouTube it’s been really hard to find much info from people who played in the play test.
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So, that has 18 skills. You can't read what they are, but that almost certainly makes my deduced skill list accurate and complete (ignore the part at the bottom, we now know that Sense Motive is part of Perception and Profession is a facet of Lore). Assuming they left room for two Lore skills, anyway (which seems likely).
I hope the leopard is hiding a spot for a PC portrait. I miss having that on standard character sheets.
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Or better yet, anyone who was in the playtest snap a photo of one of the sheets? Or would that violate an NDA or something?
We weren't allowed to take pictures of the sheets at Paizocon. And even if we were, they were nothing like the sheet on the stream. I think they were whipped up by Jason with only the need to know info...
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Outside one guy on YouTube it’s been really hard to find much info from people who played in the play test.
I'm definitely not an expert or anything, but I'm willing to answer any questions. My brother and I played the same Delve 9 times over the weekend. (couldn't get enough!) I played Seelah, Kyra, and Valeros. My bro played Ezren, Fumbus, and Merisiel. So together we got mostly the whole spectrum of the level 1 characters at Paizocon...
Fumbus? is that the new iconic (I would guess goblin) alchemist?
Fumbus is the Goblin Alchemist Iconic, yeah
I wonder what will happen with damiel...and now i got so many questions I think we need a new thread...
Outside one guy on YouTube it’s been really hard to find much info from people who played in the play test.I'm definitely not an expert or anything, but I'm willing to answer any questions. My brother and I played the same Delve 9 times over the weekend. (couldn't get enough!) I played Seelah, Kyra, and Valeros. My bro played Ezren, Fumbus, and Merisiel. So together we got mostly the whole spectrum of the level 1 characters at Paizocon...
Thank you!
Kyra the Cleric. What were her cantrips like? Doesn’t she provide any damage via spells or are clerics still implied to rely a lot weapons? I’m interested in playing an archer cleric in PF2. I know Wizards won’t need their crossbows anymore but hoping cleric mixing it up is still a thing.Some of the info I’ve found from a player posting a video:
Quick Draw Feat: Lets you draw and strike with a weapon as a single action.
Did you see any other feats that you recall that haven’t been posted on the blog?
Longbows have the Volly Trait which gives them a penalty firing too close which Shortbow doesn’t have which makes them both viable for different situations. I don’t know how too close was, did you happen to see this? Did you see any other cases of weapons having interesting traits we haven’t discussed which makes them play differently?
Is there anything that surprised you with any of the characters?
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Or better yet, anyone who was in the playtest snap a photo of one of the sheets? Or would that violate an NDA or something?We weren't allowed to take pictures of the sheets at Paizocon. And even if we were, they were nothing like the sheet on the stream. I think they were whipped up by Jason with only the need to know info...
^ This. I was told they were experimenting with multiple styles of character sheet through different parts of the Playtest process.
Also, during my playthrough they requested that we not memorize the sheets, photograph them, or provide exact details of anything that had not appeared somehow in the blogs.
Hmm
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Or better yet, anyone who was in the playtest snap a photo of one of the sheets? Or would that violate an NDA or something?We weren't allowed to take pictures of the sheets at Paizocon. And even if we were, they were nothing like the sheet on the stream. I think they were whipped up by Jason with only the need to know info...^ This. I was told they were experimenting with multiple styles of character sheet through different parts of the Playtest process.
Also, during my playthrough they requested that we not memorize the sheets, photograph them, or provide exact details of anything that had not appeared somehow in the blogs.
Hmm
I was not told not to memorize them, I will take them down... Thank you.
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Ok, first I'll preface that my bro and I MEMORIZED these stats, so there may be errors...
Awesome! Thank you so much.
Fumbus has no melee damage. Merisiel does because she has the feat, Finesse Striker. Which I think is a class feat.
Excellent. That is very good to know.
Seelah- AC 16
Everyone actually adds level to AC, so that's the +1 everyone gets, I think. I doubt anybody is an Expert in armor at 1st (it doesn't sound like it anyway).
Ezren only has Acid Splash
Good to hear on the Acid Splash. We knew about shield in theory but it's good to have it confirmed.
Skills were low on the priority list, but everyone had at least 6 known skills.
Awesome. That's a solid number. What's Seelah's Int, if I may ask?
EDIT: Edited to remove some stuff.
Sorry Deadmanwalking, I want to respect Paizo and they really are keeping this close to the chest. Thankfully most of the info I gave you can roughly be gleaned from the GCP Podcast. Though not the skills... I'm sorry, maybe you can take it down for their sake?...
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^ This. I was told they were experimenting with multiple styles of character sheet through different parts of the Playtest process.
So we might see multiple sheet formats in the Playtest book and/or Doomsday Dawn? That'd be cool. Lets test out sheet designs as much as we test the rules. Makes sense considering how central they are to so many players.
Also, during my playthrough they requested that we not memorize the sheets, photograph them, or provide exact details of anything that had not appeared somehow in the blogs.
Hmm
Fair enough. I retract my request for such photos. I don't want to get anyone in trouble.
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Edited to preserve my happy reactions but remove most of the info.
Thanks so much, man. I appreciate you covering me like that...
Ok so now, I have a speculation comment for you...I doubt they are adding level to AC. That would mean a level 20 character would have a 30 AC MINIMUM. That would make my lvl 20 Full Plate Paladin with Shield I'm planning on making in 2e clock at a 52 AC!! That sounds a little too much to me...
Where did you get the idea that character level goes to AC?...
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Edited to preserve my happy reactions but remove most of the info.Thanks so much, man. I appreciate you covering me like that...
Ok so now, I have a speculation comment for you...I doubt they are adding level to AC. That would mean a level 20 character would have a 30 AC MINIMUM. That would make my lvl 20 Full Plate Paladin with Shield I'm planning on making in 2e clock at a 52 AC!! That sounds a little too much to me...
Where did you get the idea that character level goes to AC?...
..the blogs have confirmed it in effect? The proficiency blog says that the proficiency system applies to almost everything and is your level with a -2 to +3 adjustment. The paladin blog confirms that the Paladin gets Master Armour Proficiency.
I believe that Plate and shield won’t give you a +19 boost over your proficiency bonus.
In relation to the characters in the preview games, remember that these are like to PFS pregens, which look significantly different that the 1st ed core book sheet.
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Edited to preserve my happy reactions but remove most of the info.Thanks so much, man. I appreciate you covering me like that...
No problem. We're both lucky I caught your message in time to edit!
Ok so now, I have a speculation comment for you...
I doubt they are adding level to AC. That would mean a level 20 character would have a 30 AC MINIMUM. That would make my lvl 20 Full Plate Paladin with Shield I'm planning on making in 2e clock at a 52 AC!! That sounds a little too much to me...
Well, the thing about that is that Shields no longer get +X to their AC from magic (they can have special properties and be made of adamantine and stuff, but no +X AC stuff beyond what they do at base). Likewise, they've specifically said that other items giving flat bonuses to AC are pretty much gone as well, leaving only magic armor (or Bracers of Armor) as a magic item for AC boosts.
And then, armor is a lower bonus than it once was. A chain shirt is only +2 rather than the +4 it was in PF1, just for example.
So, if you can't add level to AC, that leaves you with a max AC of around 27 (+7 Dex +2 Armor +5 Magic Armor +3 Legendary Proficiency) 29 with a shield, maybe slightly higher with Full Plate, at 20th level. That goes to 47 (49 with shield) if you add level.
Meanwhile, a maxed out attack bonus is +35 (20 Level + 7 Str +3 Proficiency +5 Magic Weapon).
27 is not a reasonable 20th level AC when people are walking around with +35s to hit. 47 actually is (that still gets hit on a 12 and that's a pretty optimized AC, most people don't have nearly that Proficiency bonus).
So the math actually works out much better if you do it this way.
Where did you get the idea that character level goes to AC?...
The Proficiency Blog strongly implied it, as mentioned above (they specifically say that everything that's a Proficiency adds Level, and Armor Proficiency is a Proficiency). Also, lots of conversations with Mark Seifter that I've either seen or participated in where he seemed to acknowledge that as how things work. I don't think he ever said it outright, but some of his posts start not making a lot of sense if it's not true.
Also, the math reasons noted above.
So, that has 18 skills. You can't read what they are, but that almost certainly makes my deduced skill list accurate and complete (ignore the part at the bottom, we now know that Sense Motive is part of Perception and Profession is a facet of Lore). Assuming they left room for two Lore skills, anyway (which seems likely).
Know Direction has added the video to youtube at 1080p. The small text is still a little hard to read but I can confirm your list is spot on and Lore is indeed there twice.
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So, that has 18 skills. You can't read what they are, but that almost certainly makes my deduced skill list accurate and complete (ignore the part at the bottom, we now know that Sense Motive is part of Perception and Profession is a facet of Lore). Assuming they left room for two Lore skills, anyway (which seems likely).Know Direction has added the video to youtube at 1080p. The small text is still a little hard to read but I can confirm your list is spot on and Lore is indeed there twice.
Nice! Glad to have figured that out accurately. :)
There's some other interesting stuff to be gleaned from that high quality video. Someone could go through and pick out all the Backgrounds, for instance (though what their Skill Feats do mechanically is still a mystery).
You can also read the Gnome Ancestry Feats. Which is neat. Glaives and Kukris are now the Martial Gnome Weapons, which is cool, and most of the rest look solid (except Fey Fellowship, which I'm less than enthused by).
And so on and so forth. It's very informative if you squint at it.
The video also confirms that Druids only get proficiency in non-metal armor and shields.
Interesting...
My math for the Paladin was so:
10+9+5 armour+3 Legendary+3 Dex+2 Shield+20 level= 52 AC
Nerfing the armour bonus of the Full Plate to 6 (which would seem reasonable I think) would bring it to 49 AC... I would be pretty happy if you guys are right. And you make some compelling arguments. I'm anxiously waiting for the last Crypt of the Everflame Podcast to come out so we can test it out. They start at level 2, so all their ACs should be one level higher.
Furthermore, I had a question on proficiencies that you might be able to answer... I read Mark commenting that Fighters get their proficiency bonuses early with weapons. And he placed the average level to get Mastery proficiency at 7 then Legendary at 15. I took that and applied it to my Paladin deducing that he got Armour Mastery at 7 then Legendary at 15. But that would mean at level 1 Paladins would be expert. And if the level is included, then my math must be wrong... Unless other classes start as experts. If so, which ones?
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Interesting...
My math for the Paladin was so:
10+9+5 armour+3 Legendary+3 Dex+2 Shield+20 level= 52 AC
Nerfing the armour bonus of the Full Plate to 6 (which would seem reasonable I think) would bring it to 49 AC... I would be pretty happy if you guys are right. And you make some compelling arguments.
Yeah, I'd be honestly surprised if Armor + Max Dex gets higher than +9.
I'm anxiously waiting for the last Crypt of the Everflame Podcast to come out so we can test it out. They start at level 2, so all their ACs should be one level higher.
Yep. We know the Fighter and Rogue in that have AC 17 at 1st. If they show indications of AC 18 at 2nd, that's convincing proof.
Furthermore, I had a question on proficiencies that you might be able to answer... I read Mark commenting that Fighters get their proficiency bonuses early with weapons. And he placed the average level to get Mastery proficiency at 7 then Legendary at 15. I took that and applied it to my Paladin deducing that he got Armour Mastery at 7 then Legendary at 15. But that would mean at level 1 Paladins would be expert. And if the level is included, then my math must be wrong... Unless other classes start as experts. If so, which ones?
When people get Proficiencies varies pretty widely. The Fighter gets Expert at one weapon category at 1st, upgrading to Master at 3rd, but doesn't get Legendary until 13th. Meanwhile, Clerics get Expert Spell Proficiency at 12th, then Master at 16th, then Legendary at 19th.
Those are both extreme examples, but it shows how variable this is. I think the 7th/15th level thing is standard for Skills and sort of a mid-point. Where armor falls for different Classes nobody knows. Paladins will get it before other people, but who knows what that means?
Going by the banquet video character sheet:
AC = 10 + DEX OR DEX Cap + proficiency + ??? + item
I can't make out what it says over the second last box. Doesn't look like level. Looks like it starts with a P.
Interesting...
My math for the Paladin was so:
10+9+5 armour+3 Legendary+3 Dex+2 Shield+20 level= 52 AC
Nerfing the armour bonus of the Full Plate to 6 (which would seem reasonable I think) would bring it to 49 AC... I would be pretty happy if you guys are right. And you make some compelling arguments.Yeah, I'd be honestly surprised if Armor + Max Dex gets higher than +9.
I'm anxiously waiting for the last Crypt of the Everflame Podcast to come out so we can test it out. They start at level 2, so all their ACs should be one level higher.Yep. We know the Fighter and Rogue in that have AC 17 at 1st. If they show indications of AC 18 at 2nd, that's convincing proof.
Furthermore, I had a question on proficiencies that you might be able to answer... I read Mark commenting that Fighters get their proficiency bonuses early with weapons. And he placed the average level to get Mastery proficiency at 7 then Legendary at 15. I took that and applied it to my Paladin deducing that he got Armour Mastery at 7 then Legendary at 15. But that would mean at level 1 Paladins would be expert. And if the level is included, then my math must be wrong... Unless other classes start as experts. If so, which ones?When people get Proficiencies varies pretty widely. The Fighter gets Expert at one weapon category at 1st, upgrading to Master at 3rd, but doesn't get Legendary until 13th. Meanwhile, Clerics get Expert Spell Proficiency at 12th, then Master at 16th, then Legendary at 19th.
Those are both extreme examples, but it shows how variable this is. I think the 7th/15th level thing is standard for Skills and sort of a mid-point. Where armor falls for different Classes nobody knows. Paladins will get it before other people, but who knows what that means?
I'm thinking Mithral will still be part of the game, so we'll see where the max dex + armour ends up.
Thanks for sharing about the proficiencies. I knew about the fighter, but missed the cleric proficiency.
Going by the banquet video character sheet:
AC = 10 + DEX OR DEX Cap + proficiency + ??? + item
I can't make out what it says over the second last box. Doesn't look like level. Looks like it starts with a P.
PLevel??? Player Level?...
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I'm thinking Mithral will still be part of the game, so we'll see where the max dex + armour ends up.
Oh, I suspect it will. I'd expect Max Dex + Armor to be at 6 at 1st level (since Dex maxes out at 18 then), but rise to 9 over higher levels (since Dex eventually maxes out at 24). Mithral would be one way to achieve that (as, I suspect, will other similar things).
Thanks for sharing about the proficiencies. I knew about the fighter, but missed the cleric proficiency.
No problem. I'm always happy to be of assistance.
PLevel??? Player Level?...Going by the banquet video character sheet:
AC = 10 + DEX OR DEX Cap + proficiency + ??? + item
I can't make out what it says over the second last box. Doesn't look like level. Looks like it starts with a P.
Technically, the Level thing is part of Proficiency, so it doesn't necessarily need a separate box.
No idea what that box is, though.
PLevel??? Player Level?...Going by the banquet video character sheet:
AC = 10 + DEX OR DEX Cap + proficiency + ??? + item
I can't make out what it says over the second last box. Doesn't look like level. Looks like it starts with a P.Technically, the Level thing is part of Proficiency, so it doesn't necessarily need a separate box.
No idea what that box is, though.
Well, an easy way to check if the Character level has its own box is to look at the melee/ranged section. What are the boxes there? I'm not much help, I only have 720p def...
PLevel??? Player Level?...Going by the banquet video character sheet:
AC = 10 + DEX OR DEX Cap + proficiency + ??? + item
I can't make out what it says over the second last box. Doesn't look like level. Looks like it starts with a P.Technically, the Level thing is part of Proficiency, so it doesn't necessarily need a separate box.
No idea what that box is, though.
Proficiency consists of the "tick boxes/fill in circles?" and seems almost too small to put a number in there (the text above each circle has the letter corresponding to the proficiency level, so L for Legendary etc.).
Proficiency consists of the "tick boxes/fill in circles?" and seems almost too small to put a number in there (the text above each circle has the letter corresponding to the proficiency level, so L for Legendary etc.).PLevel??? Player Level?...Going by the banquet video character sheet:
AC = 10 + DEX OR DEX Cap + proficiency + ??? + item
I can't make out what it says over the second last box. Doesn't look like level. Looks like it starts with a P.Technically, the Level thing is part of Proficiency, so it doesn't necessarily need a separate box.
No idea what that box is, though.
That's what I figured...
Well, an easy way to check if the Character level has its own box is to look at the melee/ranged section. What are the boxes there? I'm not much help, I only have 720p def...
PLevel??? Player Level?...Going by the banquet video character sheet:
AC = 10 + DEX OR DEX Cap + proficiency + ??? + item
I can't make out what it says over the second last box. Doesn't look like level. Looks like it starts with a P.Technically, the Level thing is part of Proficiency, so it doesn't necessarily need a separate box.
No idea what that box is, though.
They all have the same formula. Can't make out what it says on any of the other ones either. Seems like the second to last letter is a round letter, maybe an O.
They all have the same formula. Can't make out what it says on any of the other ones either. Seems like the second to last letter is a round letter, maybe an O.Well, an easy way to check if the Character level has its own box is to look at the melee/ranged section. What are the boxes there? I'm not much help, I only have 720p def...
PLevel??? Player Level?...Going by the banquet video character sheet:
AC = 10 + DEX OR DEX Cap + proficiency + ??? + item
I can't make out what it says over the second last box. Doesn't look like level. Looks like it starts with a P.Technically, the Level thing is part of Proficiency, so it doesn't necessarily need a separate box.
No idea what that box is, though.
From what I can see and assume to be the formula is follows:
Ability Scores+Proficiency+Level+Item-> Something about damage with proficiencies or maybe weapon qualities? I also see weapon traits at the end there...
Looking at it, that honestly looks like 'Prof' to me (though it's a bit blurry to be sure), which would presumably be Proficiency Modifier (ie: Level + Number with number based on the filled in circle previous).
Could be something else, I suppose.
Definitely could be Prof. One could say that it's strange to have the two side by side, but there could be several reasons for that. One, as a reminder what the bonus/penalty is and two, as a second reminder as to what proficiency level you have in that particular skill/ability when it comes to what you can actually do, since that varies with proficiency level (and it's easy to check when the GM says that such a task can only be accomplished by someone with Legendary proficiency).