To any devs reading the forums: Will 2e be viable for low / no magic games?


Prerelease Discussion


And will we see Technology in it in the future?


From the sounds of things, less magic dependency with a more streamlined proficiency bonus will make low/non magic games very much viable.


I don't know. They did say that some of the Big Six items will be dealt with, but that character development will still revolve around magic items.


From what I'm seeing, the base rules offer more support for this style of play just due to more equalization between martials and casters, the way proficiency bonuses work, and so on. But I wouldn't expect to see a full writeup on a low magic world until 2E's version of the Unchained book, because they will need all those hundreds of pages in the core book just to get the system laid out the way it's normally supposed to work.


What Fuzzypaws said. Hopefully the Automatic Bonus Progression will be available soon after release (or at the very least, easily extrapolated).


Lakesidefantasy wrote:
I don't know. They did say that some of the Big Six items will be dealt with, but that character development will still revolve around magic items.

They said that 3 of the "big six" are still around, two of which are presumably +X armor and weapons, and those are now non-magical, very well crafted items instead of magical items, and a character's crafting skill determines their quality (Expert, Master, and Legend quality/rank are the ones named).


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D&D and pathfinder by default are high magic, the majority of the classes are high magic. Pathfinder or D&D is not the system you should ever look for to ply low magic.


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Demon Lord of Paladins! wrote:
D&D and pathfinder by default are high magic, the majority of the classes are high magic. Pathfinder or D&D is not the system you should ever look for to ply low magic.

Pathfinder is medium-magic, to my mind, and on the low side for that given the defaults for how rare characters of higher levels are (compared to the kind of settings where you can't turn around without tripping over an Elminster-equivalent); settings that strike me as high magic are fairly rare and do not come out looking much like traditional fantasy if you follow through the logical consequences of the magic availabity.


the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh wrote:


Pathfinder is medium-magic

If you remove all full casters and cap spells at 3rd...maybe.


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We definitely have a very different definition of low-, medium-, and high-magic, DLoP. 3rd level spells being the max is in my mind most certainly low-magic.

Starfinder with its 6th-level casters for everything would be more medium, and PF Classic with default expectations of 9th level casting and easy access to magic items would be more on the high end, though that can vary by how much you change up those expectations.


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High Magic vs Low Magic isn't just about how powerful an individual spellcaster (ie a player character) can get. It's about how common magic is in the setting in general, how supernatural effects are portrayed, and so on. Lord of the Rings is arguably a Low Magic or at least low-Medium setting, because even though it has a few very powerful magic beings and magic items they are very rare. Meanwhile, most spellcasters in Eberron are low level but the setting is still very High Magic, due to stuff like the planar junctions, magic trains and other magitek everywhere, and so on.


Martials are being brought up to the casters' level in terms of being able to do Amazing Things so I think "low magic" is going to be difficult to achieve even without a wizard in the party. Which is good for me, frankly.


Isaac Zephyr wrote:
From the sounds of things, less magic dependency with a more streamlined proficiency bonus will make low/non magic games very much viable.

That's the impression I get too.

I love (like 5E) that a +1 sword is a big deal. I hate bloated games.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Martials are being brought up to the casters' level in terms of being able to do Amazing Things so I think "low magic" is going to be difficult to achieve even without a wizard in the party. Which is good for me, frankly.

That's most likely higher level.

Low Magic should be pretty doable... say... level 8 and under.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I regard "Low Magic" phrasing to mean how accessible Magical Items are to the player characters. A part of the reason I have avoided 5th edition is because of how Magic Items are handled and the game being inherently low magic in this regard, even with the removal of + stat items. A part of that is not being able to craft items unless you pay the full price that it costs, no matter what.

It is a major turn off for me, and the previous iteration for the Brand that caused Paizo to split and make PF in the first place had an equally horrific magic item crafting punishment in place, with Wealth By Levels having more importance than a fair, balanced system for buying and selling those Magic Items, and shanking the player character and making them poorer for making their own items.


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Orthos wrote:


Starfinder with its 6th-level casters for everything would be more medium, and PF Classic with default expectations of 9th level casting and easy access to magic items would be more on the high end, though that can vary by how much you change up those expectations.

PF1.0's default expectation of 9th-level spells is for people who can cast them to be rare enough to be the stuff of legend. A high-magic setting, to my mind, is one where magic at that scale is accessible enough to have the fundamental axioms of society built on it. No agriculture any more because it's economically more sensible to just magically create all the food anyone needs. No transport because it's cheaper to teleport or get teleported everywhere than keep a horse or a ship. That kind of thing.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
High Magic vs Low Magic isn't just about how powerful an individual spellcaster (ie a player character) can get. It's about how common magic is in the setting in general, how supernatural effects are portrayed, and so on. Lord of the Rings is arguably a Low Magic or at least low-Medium setting, because even though it has a few very powerful magic beings and magic items they are very rare. Meanwhile, most spellcasters in Eberron are low level but the setting is still very High Magic, due to stuff like the planar junctions, magic trains and other magitek everywhere, and so on.

The fuzzy one speaks wisely.

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