I'm creating a pair of characters that are twins. Twin A is a Dashing Thief Swashbuckler. Twin B is an Unchained Phantom Thief Rogue. I'd like to make a build where they would be played together. However, I've only made a single Teamwork feat based character and that was for a mounted hunter and her animal companion. As they were always together, the Teamwork feats were always in play. I'm not entirely sure if actually using Teamwork feats is what's needed for the twins since they won't always be side-by-side. I would like some advice.
The concept I have in my head is that Dashing is the one in the front, showing off and getting everyone's attention while Phantom sneaks around the back and either steals what they were after, or gets the opponent from behind. Phantom uses a Rapier while Dashing uses a Cutlass. (I didn't want them to use the same weapon and the stats are the same.)
As Dashing regains panache not from killing but by stealing, I was thinking of giving him a whip so he can do it with reach. I thought a level dip in bard would be good for that as he could use performance to help Phantom and to distract opponents. He could also use the whip to disarm at reach as well.
Outflank would probably be a good choice in feat, though Phantom can't take it until level 6.
Does anyone have any advice?
Cutlass is a (slight) variant on scimitar, i.e. it gets slashing damage, not piercing. It's a minor difference but it means he uses slashing grace or dervish dance rather than fencing grace.
Dashing sounds like the type to use dazzling display. That feats only prereq is weapon focus which he'll be getting anyway. He might also want disheartening display later. It's even possible that Phantom might want the omen trait and the intimidate skill unlock to get in on that action.
Yes, he uses Slashing Grace. Being human and getting Weapon Finesse as a level one class feature, he'll be able to get it at level one if I want. As mentioned in another thread, I wanted one of them to use a Sword Cane, but it just doesn't work for Dex builds.
Yes, he uses Slashing Grace. Being human and getting Weapon Finesse as a level one class feature, he'll be able to get it at level one if I want. As mentioned in another thread, I wanted one of them to use a Sword Cane, but it just doesn't work for Dex builds.
Why doesn't it work?
Yes, he uses Slashing Grace. Being human and getting Weapon Finesse as a level one class feature, he'll be able to get it at level one if I want. As mentioned in another thread, I wanted one of them to use a Sword Cane, but it just doesn't work for Dex builds.Why doesn't it work?
Because even though a Swashbuckler can use Weapon Finesse with it, there is no way to get Dex to Damage with a Sword Cane. Fencing Grace only works with Rapiers, and Slashing Grace only works with slashing weapons. A Sword Cane is a piercing weapon. A Rogue can't even use Weapon Finesse for it.
It seems to me like Broken Wing Gambit is a must-have. That way, if either of them gets attacked, both of them get Attacks of Opportunity.
Only one would get the AoO, both getting one would require Paired Opportunists. Which only works when the two are adjacent. But BWG does not require being adjacent, so it would work just fine.
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On a random sidetrack, consider taking Fey Obedience and worshipping Imbrex, an Elder God of Twins from the First World.
The reason- by taking the Obdience feat [both your twins], after an hour of prayer, gain Hardness 1 for the day. That's honestly pretty good- it's DR 1/- and half-damage vs energy attacks.
just something to consider for survivability.
In my opinion, the swashie needs to be the showboat and the tank of this combo. You seem to be relying on his ability to draw focus and allow the rogue to flank or sneak into a position behind whoever may be engaged with your swashbuckler.
It's a fun concept, but pairing two ineffective classes that both rely on tricks to be doing what either class does really makes the whole pair even more ineffective, in my opinion.
If the rogue had the scout's charge from the Scout archetype, and they both took Coordinated Charge, maybe, because the swashie could charge first with his ability to counter any AoO and to draw attention as the rogue charges from the shadows hitting with sneak attack.
I think it is silly and fun, but the mechanics of it aren't going to pull through like you are expecting or want them to.
It seems to me like Broken Wing Gambit is a must-have. That way, if either of them gets attacked, both of them get Attacks of Opportunity.Only one would get the AoO, both getting one would require Paired Opportunists. Which only works when the two are adjacent. But BWG does not require being adjacent, so it would work just fine.Nope, both of them would. I think I know what you are thinking:
If that opponent attacks you with this bonus, it provokes attacks of opportunity from your allies who have this feat.But "your allies" does include you. You count as your own ally. There was an FAQ.
GM Rules
Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."
This is how Sliding Dash mechanics work for flanking. If you fail the Acrobatics check moving into their first threatened square, they get the AoO and you stay there, but if you succeed, you are on the other side physically and count as your own ally occupying the square they received the AoO for you passing through for the sakes of the feat allowing you to consider the target of your charge/Sliding Dash as flanked even though you are the only person there besides your target.
I have no idea what that meant. With Broken Wing Gambit, you attack them and then they attack you, provoking the AoO from your ally. Do you count as your own ally for this?
I don't expect them to be heavy hitters. I don't even expect to play them together actually. I came up with the idea when I saw how similar the two archetypes were. I'm doing it for fun.
Because even though a Swashbuckler can use Weapon Finesse with it, there is no way to get Dex to Damage with a Sword Cane.Yes, he uses Slashing Grace. Being human and getting Weapon Finesse as a level one class feature, he'll be able to get it at level one if I want. As mentioned in another thread, I wanted one of them to use a Sword Cane, but it just doesn't work for Dex builds.Why doesn't it work?
The Agile Special Weapon Ability works. So would three levels in Unchained Rogue.
Fencing Grace only works with Rapiers, and Slashing Grace only works with slashing weapons. A Sword Cane is a piercing weapon. A Rogue can't even use Weapon Finesse for it.
Anyone can use Weapon Finesse with a Sword Cane.
SWORD CANE
Price 45 gp
Type martial
This slender light blade lies within a wooden container that serves as both its scabbard and hiding place. You can draw the blade as a swift action (or a free action if you have the Quick Draw feat). An observer must succeed at a DC 20 Perception check to realize an undrawn sword cane is a weapon rather than a walking stick; the DC decreases to 10 if the observer is able to handle the weapon. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a sword cane sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon. You can't wield a sword cane in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage.
Ah, ok. I missed that section on the Sword Cane. But are you sure it would work with Unchained Rogue's Dex to Damage?
Even if it does, Rogues can't use Martial weapons other than the rapier, shortbow, shortsword, sap, and hand crossbow. I'd have to pick a decent class to level dip or take a feat.
And Agile costs 8000 gold. It would take way too long to save from level one.
I am building these guys to be played together. I just don't really expect a GM to let me play two characters at once. As I said, I'm doing this for fun.
No, I would not be disappointed at all.
A dip in Cavalier might be interesting. I will keep it in mind.
I'm still looking through feats, but I'm liking the look of the trait Tight Bonds. Both siblings will need to take it, but it will give them +1 Will against charm and compulsion effects if they're within 60 feet of each other. It's increased to +3 against an order to hurt or betray the other.
Ah, ok. I missed that section on the Sword Cane. But are you sure it would work with Unchained Rogue's Dex to Damage?
Even if it does, Rogues can't use Martial weapons other than the rapier, shortbow, shortsword, sap, and hand crossbow. I'd have to pick a decent class to level dip or take a feat.
And Agile costs 8000 gold. It would take way too long to save from level one.
I am building these guys to be played together. I just don't really expect a GM to let me play two characters at once. As I said, I'm doing this for fun.
No, I would not be disappointed at all.
The swashbuckler rogue archetype (I know confusing, but pre ACG) gives you martial weapon proficiency with one thing, and on top of that let's you pick up combat trick twice rather than just once.
It's a neat archetype, but it doesn't really fit the theme of what I'm going for. Both it and Phantom Thief replace Trap Sense so they can't be taken together. And Phantom Thief lets you take Combat Trick as many times as you want.
Ok, due to class features, Swashbucklers need Cha. Rogues don't, but I didn't want to dump it for Phantom as it goes against the theme. With a 20 point buy, putting the human +2 into Dex, I came up with this spread:
Phantom: 10 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 14 Wis, 12 Cha.
Dashing: 10 Str, 15 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 12 Wis, 14 Cha.
I wish I didn't have to drop Dashing's Wis, but I can't figure out how else to do it.
Ugh, why are there so many great rogue talents that need sneak attack? Phantom Thief Rogues don't get sneak attack.
Ok, so I'm having Dashing dip a level in bard and I'm wondering if I should have them both do so. It could be a flavor thing. Both twins had an extensive education that covered many things. Bard covers that nicely. Dashing will be a regular bard. Maybe Phantom could be an Archaeologist Bard.
Butterfly's Sting could be fun to look at :)
Btw, the "you count as your own ally" bit has the unfortunate side effect of making a lot of the Teamwork feats go wonky.
You are free to try and push it through if you like, but be prepared to face a lot of resistance from GMs and such :)
That would be pretty good. I could give it to Dashing since he'll be doing more crit fishing for the panache.
I'm going to give that to my hunter. She could give the crit to her boar who does a LOT of damage. And thanks to Outflank and Paired Opportunist, they both get a second attack on a crit. Both crits, actually, so that's 3 attacks a round for hunter and boar.
Whoops, I forgot that Broken Wing Gambit requires 5 ranks in Bluff. Guess I'll have to wait until level 5 to give it to them.
I think I'll give Butterfly's Sting to Phantom instead of Dashing. He'll need the guaranteed crit to regain panache.
Ok, so here's the big question - do I want Dashing to have Dex-to-Damage at level one or level 3? I can take it at level one with Slashing Grace, but it will eat up both of my level one feats. If I go with level 3, I can take Dervish Dance instead. That would save on both my level one feats since Dervish Dance only requires Weapon Finesse, which Dashing gets as a class feature, and 2 ranks in Perform.
Looks interesting.
So I was looking at the Dex to Damage feats again. If I go with Dervish Dance, I will save a feat but will have to use a Scimitar and as it requires 2 ranks in Perform, I will have to use a different weapon for the first 2 levels so Dashing will be able to regain panache. If I go with Slashing Grace, I won't have to switch weapons and can take it at level one, but will use an extra feat.
I could also take Slashing Grace at level 3, using one of my level one feats for Weapon Focus and the other for Combat Expertise, which will be needing for Disarm and Steal feats. Again, it will require using a different weapon for the first two levels.
Now, in order for Dashing to regain panache, he needs to either crit with a piercing weapon or steal an item. By going with Dervish Dance, I can take Combat Expertise and Improved Steal at level one, making it easier for him. I really like the idea of him using a whip to steal at reach, but that will take another 3 feats - Weapon Focus Whip, Whip Mastery, and Improved Whip Mastery. A whip also gives a +2 to Disarm attempts.
I just double checked the Dashing Thief's page and they don't have any bonus feats. Instead, they get Rogue Talents. The character's levels in Dashing Thief is treated as effective Rogue levels to determine level-based talent effects. Now, I can use Combat Trick to get a Combat Feat, but I can only do that once with Dashing.
Now, with Dashing, the only thing affecting when he gets Dex-to-Damage is when I choose to take it. I can get it at level one with Slashing Grace, level 3 with Slashing Grace, or level 3 with Dervish Dance. He can have his level dip in Bard at character level 2 and not effect that at all. But with Phantom, she gets Dex-to-Damage at Rogue level 3 as a class feature. Level dipping in Bard before then would slow it down. So she either takes it at level 4, or doesn't take it at all.
Now, to use a whip to steal requires Improved Whip Mastery so it can wrap around small objects. That requires Weapon Focus and Whip Mastery. Agile Maneuvers would be needed for Dex to CMB. Graceful Steal would give the ability to use Steal on a bag or other container that you can reach into outside of combat. Quick Steal would allow you to replace an attack at full BAB with a Steal attempt. It requires +6 BAB, so you would still have the second attack left. I don't think that Greater Steal is needed. Dashing still gets one bonus feat at Swashbuckler level 5, Improved Critical.
Dashing gets a Rogue Talent every 4 Swashbuckler levels. If I want him to use a whip, I have 2 choices - burn a feat on Exotic Proficiency or dip a level. I think dipping is a better choice as Dashing has limited feats and a bard dip will give him Bardic Performance and spells. That pushes back the Talents by one level, but not the feats.
I double checked the rules for Agile Maneuvers and I don't need it for Disarm and Trip with Weapon Finesse in play. Dashing won't be doing any other maneuvers so Agile Maneuvers won't be needed.
So I'm thinking of this -
1: Weapon Finesse (Class feature), Weapon Focus Cutlass (human feat), Slashing Grace
3: Combat Expertise
S4: Combat Swipe - Improved Steal
5: Broken Wing Gambit
S5: Improved Critical (class feature)
7: Weapon Focus Whip
S8: Combat Trick - Whip Mastery
9: Improved Whip Mastery
Honestly, this build wouldn't be that much different if it wasn't a twin build. Just take out Broken Wing Gambit and move the other feats up, taking Improved Disarm or something at level 9. Maneuver builds are pretty feat intensive.
As a Rogue, Phantom will be able to take Talents every other level. As a Phantom, she can take Combat Trick more than once, so she has feats to spare.
Ok, so I lose Dashing's Whip feats and replace them with Teamwork feats. I'm thinking Paired Opportunists, moving Broken Wing Gambit to later and having the 5th level feat be Improved Disarm. I wouldn't have to dip a level in Bard either unless I really wanted it for backstory reasons.
I also think the feat Graceful Steal would be nice, but it requires Agile Manuevers and there's not a lot of room for it. The only way I can see around it is to use a Scimitar instead of a cutlass and take Dervish Dance at level 3. I'd simply use a different piercing weapon until then and switch when I get the feat. That leaves both level one feats open. I can move Combat Expertise to level one and also take Agile Maneuvers.
That would be this:
1: Weapon Finesse (Class feature), Combat Expertise (human feat), Agile Maneuvers
3: Dervish Dance
S4: Combat Swipe - Improved Steal
5: Improved Disarm
S5: Improved Critical (class feature)
7: Broken Wing Gambit
S8: Combat Trick - Graceful Steal
9: Paired Opportunists
Another way to go about this is the Ring of Tactical Precision that lets you share a teamwork feat. Basically, you wear the ring for a few hours, attuning it with a teamwork feat you have. You then give the ring to an ally who will have the teamwork feat for 24 hours. This would work by having both twins attuning a ring to a different teamwork feat and switching them. So Phantom could take Broken Wing Gambit at level 5 and Dashing taking either Paired Opportunists or Outflank at 7.
I think Dirty Fighting feat instead of Combat Expertise would be better for use with the flanking and teamwork aspect of these characters.
Ok, so here's what I have. I removed Dashing's Whip feats and replaced them with a couple of Teamwork feats. I'm also going to have him use a simple piercing weapon and switch it out at level 3 for a scimitar. By level 5, they should have enough for both to have a Ring of Tactical Precision. So Phantom would use it for BWG and Dashing for Paired Opportunists, though he won't get it until later unless Phantom uses 2 rings.
Here are the builds. Both are human and get Weapon Finesse as a Class Feature.
Phantom: 10 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 14 Wis, 12 Cha
1: Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Butterfly's Sting
2: Rogue Talent – Assault Leader
3: Feat – Improved Steal
4: Rogue Talent – Combat Trick – Combat Reflexes
5: Feat – Broken Wing Gambit
6: Rogue Talent – Combat Trick – Outflank
7: Feat – Defensive Combat Training
8: Rogue Talent – Combat Trick – Disarm Partner
9: Feat – Iron Will
Dashing: 10 Str, 15 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, 14 Cha.
1: Weapon Finesse, Dirty Fighting, Agile Maneuvers
3: Dervish Dance
4: Rogue Talent – Combat Swipe - Improved Steal
5: Improved Disarm
5: Improved Critical (class feature)
7: Outflank
8: Rogue Talent – Combat Trick – Disarm Partner
9: Paired Opportunists
If I do decide to give Phantom 2 Rings of Tactical Precision, I'll use it for Outflank. Which means I'll remove it from Dashing, move Paired Opportunists to level 7, and take Graceful Steal at level 9.
Since Dashing is a crit fisher for panache, I'll give him the trait Anatomist to give him a +1 to confirming them. I might as well give it to Phantom as well, and of course they both have the Tight Bonds trait.