The purpose of this thread is to clarify questions arising in this adventure. This is a SPOILER filled zone, do not venture further if you do not wish the adventure to be spoiled for you, and spoiler tags are not required when posting here.
This thread is a GM Reference thread for Part 6 of the War for the Crown Adventure Path. Links for the individual threads for each part are as follows:
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Alrighty! Just got my copy.
After a cursory scan - it seems like Pythareus discrediting of the Stavian line pretty much adds up to zip?
From the 5th installment: "Now leaderless, they have published these records, and Eutropia’s claim to the crown by virtue of her bloodline has fallen apart." (That's a quote). So, the plan is to get the Mantle of Kings to prove her fitness to rule (though not necessarily her legitimacy). Not that much comes of that - she's dead before you get to use it.
By the conclusion of chapter 5 - we learn that Eutropia got iced while the party is extra-planar and they are off to return to Taldor...uh oh. Even the map of Taldor shows the result of this - everyone with a claim comes out of the woodwork...
(queue book 6)
So, party does some murder mystery stuff, goes and smacks around the Immaculate Circle and then has to contend with Carrius. Here's my problem...
So, why would Carrius just step into the role as legitimate heir to the throne when the entire Stavian bloodline claim has been discredited? It seems like Book 6 just ignores this with a hand waving - Carrius seizes the Throne (really? how?). The Ulfen Guard have welcomed him as the heir (really, why? Thought the Stavian line was discredited). And all the other squabbling claims to the throne just evaporated into thin air? Seriously?
All of this seemingly tossed aside via a single line: "Taldor is surprisingly ready to stand behind the “tragic, mourning” prince who just laid his sister to rest, especially given the apparent betrayal by her close advisors (the PCs), who struck her down and then vanished like cowards!" (quoted).
A tragic, mourning Prince from a discredited noble bloodline whose claim to the crown fell apart by Book 4 somehow, in a very short period of time, coalesces support from all of Taldor?
Towards the end, the party has likely put Eutropia (with or without Carrius) back on the throne...I'm just not sure how, because...well, legitimacy and all. If Eutropia is a possible option, pretty much anyone is.
I hope I'm not reading this wrong. I'm kinda speechless. I mean, there is suspension of disbelief, and then there's Book 6.
I might run it as is, but my end game is going to be Taldor Civil War 2 - Electric Boogaloo. Eutropia's claim isn't even close to ironclad, and she'll need to fight off lots of upstarts.
One thing I really liked was how Eutropia is viewed based on all the past PC actions through all 6 books. That's cool. But still having issues with the whole 'legitimacy' thing. She's just one more usurper gaining the throne through the sword...
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So, why would Carrius just step into the role as legitimate heir to the throne when the entire Stavian bloodline claim has been discredited? It seems like Book 6 just ignores this with a hand waving - Carrius seizes the Throne (really? how?). The Ulfen Guard have welcomed him as the heir (really, why? Thought the Stavian line was discredited). And all the other squabbling claims to the throne just evaporated into thin air? Seriously?
Just my two cents, but it really feels like all the claimants other than Pythareus and Eutropia were just tacked onto the campaign and only serve to detract from it. We never meet an NPC who supports one of these other claimants, they never do anything that has any effect on the story's plot, and then just disappear with a hand-wave when they're no longer convenient for the narrative. Why are they even there in the first place if they literally do nothing for the plot except get in the way and require a massive hand-wave in the final act?
I love the underlying theme of a Taldor divided between dozens of different claimants, threatening to tear the country apart, but that really wasn't the story being told in this AP. It was Eutropia vs Pythareus for three acts, then the Immaculate Circle / Carrius attempting to steal the prize in the final act.
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I'm really curious at who was the original third option in the original draft. Like we know it was Lotheed, but was it Paniver or Bartelby or someone else in Lotheed family?
Also, thing with Prince Carrius is that he has supernatural charisma behind him due to having parts of legends of six past emperors inside him. Adventure implies reason why Taldor is "surprisingly" standing behind him is due to that charisma basically
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I'm really curious at who was the original third option in the original draft. Like we know it was Lotheed, but was it Paniver or Bartelby or someone else in Lotheed family?
Also, thing with Prince Carrius is that he has supernatural charisma behind him due to having parts of legends of six past emperors inside him. Adventure implies reason why Taldor is "surprisingly" standing behind him is due to that charisma basically
I get the thing with Carrius and his 'charisma'. But if the entire Stavian lineage, and thus claim, to the throne was blown out of the water by Book 4, he's nothing more than a charismatic contender from a disgraced bloodline. Maybe a 'really' charismatic contender, but still.
Looking at the map from Book 5, we can see the results: Eutropia's support has fractured completely and she only holds a couple key areas of support. I can see her core support throwing their weight behind Carrius, but the rest?
Then, once she's back in action later in Book 6 - she's pretty much the shoe in once the PC's deal with Carrius.
It's like two books of political ramifications are tossed out the window simply by penning a couple of throwaway lines in Book 6 that frankly stretch the very limits of verisimilitude.
I think I probably would have been happier had it ended with Carrius (yet another insane Stavian hellbent on buggering up the country) being defeated and the Mantle of Kings leading the way to someone like Martella being chosen. Someone loyal to Taldor, loyal to her friends/Eutropia through thick and thin, and probably someone who doesn't really want the role, but would take it if her country asked it of her. AND - someone who represents a break from the primogeniture laws (just like Eutropia).
Eutropia and the disgraced Stavian bloodline? Well, Martella could grant them some boons/land and you get a nice reversal of roles as Eutropia becomes Martella's advisor/confidante.
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Nobody stops you from rewriting the AP to your liking.
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I think there's room to argue that Eutropia and her other loyalist agents weren't idle while the party was off in Axis. During the time they spent there, Eutropia and the rest of her affiliates were likely extremely busy taking back control of things, either by placing doubt in the claims of illegitimacy or assuaging fears and doubts of the new claimants to convince them to rally with Eutropia regardless of the circumstances.
On top of that, the sheer shock of the Princess' assassination might be enough to make people forget about the scandal. People have been known to conveniently forget pretty scandalous things when presented with an even more scandalous thing, after all. Alternatively, that very assassination might give rise to speculation that the evidence against her legitimacy was fabricated and her assassination is a cover up to hide that fact.
Not to mention, Duke Lotheed and the Immaculate Circle had a vested interest in re-legitimizing the Stavians as well, so they could have been an unlikely ally in the background during book 5, engineering a situation in which Eutropia was the subject of slanderous character assassination, then actual assassination, and that poor innocent Carrius is indeed faultless in all of this and still very much legitimate.
Fortunately in my case, I've set the campaign up to have a second party of Society Agents running around in parallel to the party proper, so I'm likely going to use them via some Society Scenarios or perhaps a Module to represent what the other side of Eutropia's team is doing to address the situation during Book 5 to control the damage of that revelation.
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But hey, Crystal left Paizo, the goal of the "where's my player's guide / you got primogeniture wrong / let's discuss the finer points of how Taldor was never misogynistic at all" mob was achieved, there's no any more point in singling this AP for academic analysis! ;-)
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I wasn't looking at the third of these discussions, but the first two didn't seem to have anything to do with Crystal? Or at the very least I didn't see any mob mentality at work in regards to her specifically about those two points, as far as I can remember.
Are you sure that you aren't trying to interpret things into two threads which were complaints about a late product (in fact the latest a players guide has ever come out, IIRC) and a pretty pedantic discussion about rules of succession?
Ah, found another bit of text that might help with the whole "is succession actually resolved" matter:
"The Mantle of Kings proves Eutropia’s right to rule, but the path to her coronation is not guaranteed. There remains a strong resistance to her leadership from some of the established noble families in Taldor(...)Regardless, with the support of the PCs and the senate, and the blessing of the Mantle of Kings, Eutropia eventually proves her claim to the throne, and she is crowned Grand Princess Eutropia, first empress of Taldor."
So in short, the matter of succession isn't actually resolved by the time the AP comes to a close, but it's explained that it's eventually addressed in the epilogue. Considering the PCs acquired the Mantle of Kings specifically to address this whole issue, it's not as though that facet of the AP was entirely ignored. But it is understandable that it wasn't given a lot of extra attention, considering how much extra content would need to be made just to properly address something like that (especially considering Pathfinder isn't really built for that scale of intrigue). It makes much more sense to leave that for GMs that really want to expand their story past the AP books.
Not sure if I am reading you correctly. Did they turn really nasty, got mass deletions and then a thread lock, or am I misunderstanding you? I know those things can happen overnight when I'm sleeping or something like that.
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So, why would Carrius just step into the role as legitimate heir to the throne when the entire Stavian bloodline claim has been discredited? It seems like Book 6 just ignores this with a hand waving - Carrius seizes the Throne (really? how?). The Ulfen Guard have welcomed him as the heir (really, why? Thought the Stavian line was discredited). And all the other squabbling claims to the throne just evaporated into thin air? Seriously?
In my mind, Eutropia and Martella spent most of Book 5 attempting to garner allies and retake Taldor - starting with Oppara - through non-violent means, in case the PCs fail to find the Mantle of Kings. Its existence is, after all, a rumor, and the PCs are dispatched in the hopes that those rumors are true. It is certainly no guarantee, though, and for Eutropia to place her claim entirely on finding the relic would be naive.
By winning over Oppara, she has unintentionally laid the groundwork for a different Stavian when she is assassinated.
I don't think Carrius has the sudden backing of all of Taldor, merely the backing of the populace of Oppara. Personally, I plan to have Carrius retake Oppara somewhat by military force (similar to how Julius Caesar took Rome by forcing much of the Senate and standing Consul to abandon the city, gaining the support of the common folk) and with some help of previously dispatched Immaculate Circle agents. The Circle wanted to place Carrius on the throne, and would likely have taken steps to ensure that outcome after Eutropia's death. This will help give the feeling that the city is under Martial Law, and will hopefully help show that even though Carrius has amassed support, he and the Six Legends won't change Taldor for the better.
I think as long as the Mantle of Kings is used to show Eutropia's legitimacy after Carrius and the Six Legends are defeated, the PC's efforts in Book 5 still have significant impact.
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Did they turn really nasty, got mass deletions and then a thread lock,That's exactly what happened.
Alright, I'm reading you. Sadly douchebags find a way to turn things sour very fast. My apologies for my incomplete understanding of the situation.
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Just my two cents, but it really feels like all the claimants other than Pythareus and Eutropia were just tacked onto the campaign and only serve to detract from it. We never meet an NPC who supports one of these other claimants, they never do anything that has any effect on the story's plot, and then just disappear with a hand-wave when they're no longer convenient for the narrative. Why are they even there in the first place if they literally do nothing for the plot except get in the way and require a massive hand-wave in the final act?
I love the underlying theme of a Taldor divided between dozens of different claimants, threatening to tear the country apart, but that really wasn't the story being told in this AP. It was Eutropia vs Pythareus for three acts, then the Immaculate Circle / Carrius attempting to steal the prize in the final act.
While that is the greater part of the story, there is plenty of opportunity to have "guest appearances" by other contenders during the segments between books. The PCs have to travel the length of the country several times (Oppara to Meratt to Yanmass to Zimar, etc), and much of this is before they have access to teleportation. They're going to be stopping to spend the night in one of the rival factions' territories at least once (unless your party doesn't like dealing with overland travel). Easiest thing in the world to throw in a "Game of Thrones" moment where supporters of opposed factions run into each other in a roadside tavern while the party is staying there and a fight breaks out, or some such.
So, what if we were to decide that by the end the Mantle of Kings considers Eutropia is not worthy to rule, and Cassius is dead?
I think it would be an interesting continuation to the campaign with Eutropia deciding to disregard the Mantle and fight for the throne in a likely civil war.
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Another idea for Continuing The Campaign: its stated that the Immaculate Circle has other members besides what we saw in this adventure. Those other conspirators could cause trouble for the PC's and Taldor with their plans for immortality, resistance to Eutropia's rule, and retaliation against the PC's for taking out their leaders. Heck, there's no reason there can't also be other leaders of the Circle in/around Taldor. Here are some ideas for more Immaculate Circle members:
-Human fire-blooded sorcerer or flame oracle who became immortal by swallowing the heart of a phoenix, she explodes (fire/force damage) when killed and is reborn from the ashes. Believes that anyone who would dare rule over others needs to be purified with magical flame. Zealous believer in the superiority of nobility, but not stupid.
-Half-orc rogue who sneaked into Heaven and stole a golden apple to gain immortality. Begrudgingly admitted to the Immaculate Circle because he produced evidence of noble heritage on his human side. Others think the evidence is fake, but its actually legitimate. Undermines Eutropia and the PC's with theft of important items and the Primogen Crown itself.
-Human monk with a focus on ancient Taldan philosophy (think Socrates and Plato). Achieved immortality by getting Timeless Body and Perfect Self, surviving the decades unchanged by virtue of being fully in tune with his platonic self. Looks to manipulate Eutropia into pursuing immortality by becoming an adviser and pushing her towards valuing perfection in all things.
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Kinda surprised the Circle didn't try to get the PCs to help with the Six Legends problem.
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Kinda surprised the Circle didn't try to get the PCs to help with the Six Legends problem.
As I understood it, the Six Legends weren't really all that much of a threat in Count Lotheed's mind. Given his little blurb about the Ring of the Recalled Soul on page 29, I think he believes it's all more or less under control (or will be soon enough). He just didn't account for the fact that the PCs would go so far in interrupting his plans with an outright invasion of his base, thus preventing him from pulling it off.
Because if there's one thing no villain ever seems to account for, it's the PCs suddenly kicking down your door and wrecking all your plans by killing/capturing you.
Kinda surprised the Circle didn't try to get the PCs to help with the Six Legends problem.As I understood it, the Six Legends weren't really all that much of a threat in Count Lotheed's mind. Given his little blurb about the Ring of the Recalled Soul on page 29, I think he believes it's all more or less under control (or will be soon enough). He just didn't account for the fact that the PCs would go so far in interrupting his plans with an outright invasion of his base, thus preventing him from pulling it off.
Because if there's one thing no villain ever seems to account for, it's the PCs suddenly kicking down your door and wrecking all your plans by killing/capturing you.
He was already losing control before the PCs came back to the Material Plane, but I would guess the Six Legends tricked him into believing otherwise.
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Kinda surprised the Circle didn't try to get the PCs to help with the Six Legends problem.
It would've been pretty tricky to accomplish. The Circle's big plan was to have Carrius on the Lion Throne, and eliminating the Six also eliminates Carrius. They want Carrius to survive and rule as a puppet ruler, and they want the Six controlled, but not "killed".
The Circle would've needed some plan that convinced the PCs to browbeat the Six into submission, but to leave Carrius on the throne without resurrecting Eutropia. That'd be pretty unlikely to result in a success.
Kinda surprised the Circle didn't try to get the PCs to help with the Six Legends problem.It would've been pretty tricky to accomplish. The Circle's big plan was to have Carrius on the Lion Throne, and eliminating the Six also eliminates Carrius. They want Carrius to survive and rule as a puppet ruler, and they want the Six controlled, but not "killed".
The Circle would've needed some plan that convinced the PCs to browbeat the Six into submission, but to leave Carrius on the throne without resurrecting Eutropia. That'd be pretty unlikely to result in a success.
Sacrificing Eutropia's soul?
Sacrificing Eutropia's soul?Not quite sure what you're referring to here. Do you mean as a plan for the Circle? They never have possession of her soul.
As a way to save Carrius if the Six Legends get kicked out... they might discover where her soul is in some ways.
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As a way to save Carrius if the Six Legends get kicked out... they might discover where her soul is in some ways.Sacrificing Eutropia's soul?Not quite sure what you're referring to here. Do you mean as a plan for the Circle? They never have possession of her soul.
The Circle actually does not know that Eutropia's soul can be used in this way; Duke Lotheed's research has not advanced that far. The PCs can find out about the ability to use a sliver of Eutropia's soul to "patch the holes" in Carrius' soul largely through accident and coincidence. As far as Pannivar is concerned, the best course of action is to keep Carrius on the throne and keep the Six cowed.
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The Circle actually does not know that Eutropia's soul can be used in this way; Duke Lotheed's research has not advanced that far. The PCs can find out about the ability to use a sliver of Eutropia's soul to "patch the holes" in Carrius' soul largely through accident and coincidence. As far as Pannivar is concerned, the best course of action is to keep Carrius on the throne and keep the Six cowed.As a way to save Carrius if the Six Legends get kicked out... they might discover where her soul is in some ways.Sacrificing Eutropia's soul?Not quite sure what you're referring to here. Do you mean as a plan for the Circle? They never have possession of her soul.
At the time, no one knows where her soul is, if the Circle invited the PCs to their hideout, they might have found out the same way and devise a plan from there.
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1. Is this happening in Oppara or elsewhere? Can the PCs or their agents "influence" outside Oppara? Given that the "damage" is doubled in Oppara at the start, why go to Oppara at all?
The political situation in the rest of Taldor isn't addressed, so I'd presume it's just Oppara.
Personally I'd run it with Taldor on the brink of civil war, with the remaining claimants preparing to march on the capital to dethrone the "illegitimate" emperor. It creates immediate stakes, in that Carrius' reckless power grab threatens the civil war that even the warmonger Pythareus strived to avoid.
Personally my biggest problem with this whole section is that it provides absolutely no clarification on what I consider to be by far the most obvious course of action by the PC's: eliminating Carrius' agents in the city. They're a 17th level party, and everyone remotely powerful enough to threaten them is hunkered down in the palace. It would take them hours to hunt down and eliminate the majority of Carrius' operatives in the city. It's worth noting this is exactly what happened to many Roman emperors; they came into Rome, had themselves declared Emperor in a hurry, but then someone else swoops in and essentially cuts off their ability to control the city and empire.
1. Is this happening in Oppara or elsewhere? Can the PCs or their agents "influence" outside Oppara? Given that the "damage" is doubled in Oppara at the start, why go to Oppara at all?The political situation in the rest of Taldor isn't addressed, so I'd presume it's just Oppara.
Personally I'd run it with Taldor on the brink of civil war, with the remaining claimants preparing to march on the capital to dethrone the "illegitimate" emperor. It creates immediate stakes, in that Carrius' reckless power grab threatens the civil war that even the warmonger Pythareus strived to avoid.
Personally my biggest problem with this whole section is that it provides absolutely no clarification on what I consider to be by far the most obvious course of action by the PC's: eliminating Carrius' agents in the city. They're a 17th level party, and everyone remotely powerful enough to threaten them is hunkered down in the palace. It would take them hours to hunt down and eliminate the majority of Carrius' operatives in the city. It's worth noting this is exactly what happened to many Roman emperors; they came into Rome, had themselves declared Emperor in a hurry, but then someone else swoops in and essentially cuts off their ability to control the city and empire.
I think the adventure assumes the PC's won't want to slaughter/coerce Carrius's followers into submission, but you bring up a good point in that this isn't really covered. I suspect that the writers wanted another 20 pages or so, but they had to be cut due to length.
So what happened to map G?
I expect it had to be cut because of page count restrictions. I'm sure there are some Paizo maps that work as substitutes.
Does anyone know where I can find more information about Thassritoum and the Palace of Nightmares? I feel like this is an avenue I would really like to explore to take my campaign up to level 20, but all I can find is the one PathfinderWiki entry under the Palace of Nightmares title.
Does anyone know where I can find more information about Thassritoum and the Palace of Nightmares? I feel like this is an avenue I would really like to explore to take my campaign up to level 20, but all I can find is the one PathfinderWiki entry under the Palace of Nightmares title.
Pretty sure this is the first time Thass and the Palace have been mentioned.
I'm a bit confused about the cup puzzle in G4. As far as I can tell the clues don't seem sufficient to identify which cup has the poison. Both the hippogriff and unicorn cups seem to meet all the clues' requirements. The book says it's the hippogriff, but the unicorn cup:
1. Is next to a platinum cup, so the first clue doesn't eliminate it
2. Has hooves, so the second clue doesn't eliminate it
3. Is not the naga cup, so the third clue doesn't eliminate it
4. Doesn't have feathers, so the last clue doesn't apply (and even if it did, it happens to be 2 to the right of a gold cup anyway)
Am I missing something here?
That is:
If the poison cup does have feathers, it is two cups to the right of a gold cup; conversely, if the poison cup does not have feathers, it is not two cups to the right of a gold cup.Whereas the conditional reading is:
If the poison cup does have feathers, it is two cups to the right of a gold cup; this implies nothing about the case of the poison cup not having feathers.
But if we apply that same logic to clue #2 then the hippogriff cup fails and can't be the poison cup either.
"If the the poison cup does not have scales, then it has hooves; conversely, if the poison cup does have scales, then it does not have hooves"
Hippogriffs have the front claws of a bird of prey, which have scales, and the back legs of a horse, which have hooves.
The only possible solution I've come up with is that artistic depiction of the Unicorn cup only shows the upper body of the unicorn, without depicting its lower body and more importantly its hooves. Therefor it fails clue #2 because it doesn't have scales or hooves. That feels really contrived to me, though.
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So interesting turn of events in my game tonight. The oracle got snapped up by the Qolok during their entrance to the area. It hopped onto the Ethereal plane with him and the oracle used his 15 foot teleportation boots to get out of the creature's throat... which dumped him on the Ethereal Plane with no way to get back.
Did I call that right or should he jumped fallen back onto the Material Plane.
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Last night my group finally finished War for the Crown after starting in September of 2018. Everyone was thoroughly happy with the conclusion. This is by and far the best AP I have ever run (which is no shame to the others I've run) and I will miss running it.
Time to change my avatar for my next AP (already in progress). Farewell PF1E and War for the Crown!
Congratulations to you and your group.
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Here we go. Thursday night book 6.
Has anyone had any success continuing the campaign after its normal conclusion? My group isn't there yet, but I'm interested in taking them to 20th after the campaign is over. Currently in Book 4, we'll likely be done with the AP this year at our current rate.
I will be. Have some things cooking happy to share as I do them
Do the Players PHYSICALLY enter the prince's Mindscape via the Ring of Recalled Souls?
I have not been able to find anything concrete via any text on mindscapes.
If the Drop physically, but enter mentally, what preventing the royal guards from just attacking or restraining their unconscious bodies as they fight the old emperors?
Am I over thinking this?