I've played with two different unchained monks so far, and I have been surprised by how clumsy they are. Granted, they were both built the same, so maybe there are agile monks out there and I just haven't seen them yet. It looks like, as they are designed, you generally want strength and wisdom mostly since strength helps your attacks and wisdom helps your ac more than dex does, unless you are planning on going $$$ for an agile Aomf. So the monks in my groups have both had low dex. They both had the lowest initiatives in the group, with the one exception of a dwarf cleric in heavy armor. That seems odd to me, because i think of a monk as a nimble guy or gal with lightning reflexes, walking around in no armor, ready to leap into action at a moment's notice. Maybe they are so monkish and wise that they are constantly lost in pondering and easily suprised.
Tldr: I think umonks should have a bonus to initiative to offset their emphasis on wisdom over dex.
Thank you for your time.
But anyone can take improved initiative. My image of the monk is someone who should have magnificently fast reactions, but the mechanics of the class itself don't lead to that. I mean, inquisitors get wisdom to initiative, and my image of the inquisitor is not that they are supremely quick to react, unless they were given the ability to surprise because of the Monty python joke.
Maybe it's my preconceptions that are wrong.
And thus I must again point as the sohei archetype and then look at unchained monk disapprovingly.
Soheis get 1/2 their level on initiative. Oh, and soheis can always act in the surprise round due to the same ability.
Additionally, they can flurry in light armor (eventually, regular unarmored mode is better... but this lets you survive level 1 when you don't have the upgrades), weapon training (it can be enough to make nonflurry compete with unchained monk for attack/damage, and makes the flurried version far surpass unchained), and the ability to flurry with the weapon in their weapon training groups (which can include options like reach weapons and bows).
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The title of the thread was are they clumsy. I was adressing that they're not inherently clumsy and that your players just built them that way. After all, +5 initiative is by no means clumsy. Take a trait for another initiative bonus if you want to represent them being even faster to react.
Additionally, no one else can hit as quickly and as accurately as them. Unchained Flurry of Blows will give them more attacks at Full-BAB then just about any other class. You've also got Flying Kick where they can literally jump through the air at their opponent and still get a full attack.
Monks are extremely multi-attribute dependent. As an unarmored melee wisdom-powered sort of skillsy character, they absolutely need four out of six attributes and probably care about a fifth quite a bit. As such, yeah, a monk is probably going to suffer significantly in at least one area they should nominally be good at.
Most wizards have at least a 12 in dex and imp initiative, and wizards are not themed around their physical prowess. +5 on a pc is not particularly high. If anything, getting 80% of your initiative from a non class related source that anyone can take (and most do, it's probably one of the top five most taken feats in the game I would imagine) shows that they are indeed inherently clumsy, in that they have nothing built into their design that makes them more agile than average, and they have a lower incentive to invest in dex unless they go for dex to damage.
True they do strike quickly, and run quickly. That is true.
The title of the thread was are they clumsy. I was adressing that they're not inherently clumsy and that your players just built them that way. After all, +5 initiative is by no means clumsy. Take a trait for another initiative bonus if you want to represent them being even faster to react.
Additionally, no one else can hit as quickly and as accurately as them. Unchained Flurry of Blows will give them more attacks at Full-BAB then just about any other class. You've also got Flying Kick where they can literally jump through the air at their opponent and still get a full attack.
The main complaint at the center of the thread was about monks being MAD, and how his players couldn't have enough dex to be 'kung fu fighting' in the way he imagined (ultra fast reflexes being fairly key trait for him; not about bonus to hit, but ability to know when they need to hit). My suggestion allows him to address at least some of that issue.
Yes, unchained has flying kick, but sohei can grab one of the various style feats designed to address the issue (pummeling style was fairly obviously a 'make unarmed good' style released right before unchained), and even without that the sohei could just do a reach build with flurry (I often regard reach+lunge a as pseudo pounce due to the distance covered). So it can have similar effects to this ability, but sohei doesn't have to fall into the potential 'dex/wis turtle' trap since it can get basic AC when it is most desperate for it- allowing for some simplification of that area
And the problem with the unchained monk's accuracy is that they are a full BAB class without accuracy boosts. A well equipped sohei hits with +3 more attack than an unchained monk. When adding all the hits, the sohei gets two hits that are better than the unchained monks (and it also has better extra hits from haste), and two hits that are slightly worse than the unchained monks.
I tend to prefer the sohei's version, but ultimately it comes out as 'fairly comparable'. And that is my main problem with unchained- it is 'fairly comparable'. The problem is that it feels redundant- there are a ton of other 'fixes for the monk class' which does something 'fairly comparable' to what the unchained monk does. And some of those were released right before unchained (brawler adn pummeling style).
The unchained rogue doesn't have this chaos with its fixes- the slayer, ninja, unchained rogue, etc. each have their own unique niches (good, simple full BAB class; invisibility and tricks; free dex to damage and debuffs). But unchained monk mostly just feels like it crowds into existing niches.
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Wall of Opinion
That's fine that you dislike it. All I can say is that every Unchained Monk I've played has performed more than fine. It's not bad, and it's generally easier for new players imo since there's no flurry penalty, they have full bab, and they get 1.5x str on 2 handed weapons while flurrying.
As a sidenote, I do actually agree about Sohei being better, but really only once they get weapon training a level 6 and can flurry with a large variety of weapons. I have a level 8 archer Sohei, so I'm well aware that they function well.
If they would start printing all the monk archetypes with an unchained compatible version like they've done for a few then I have a feeling you'd end up liking unchained more.
Yes, thanks for putting it into better words than i could Ismeres. Although I would argue that it goes even beyond their being MAD. Other than the fact that it takes more and more resources to push a single stat higher and higher, there is not much of a reason to put a point in dex over wisdom. Wisdom gives you a better type of a.c., it gives you more ki points, and and it boosts your will save, which is always important, especially with it not being a good save. The only real benefit to choosing dex is better acrobatics and better initiative, which leads to my sluggish monks.
And yes you could build a very agile monk, as you could build a very agile sorcerer or barbarian, I guess I just think it's weird that the design of the class seems to contradict building an agile monk. Like a barbarian that gets more out of charisma than strength.
Most wizards have at least a 12 in dex and imp initiative, and wizards are not themed around their physical prowess. +5 on a pc is not particularly high. If anything, getting 80% of your initiative from a non class related source that anyone can take (and most do, it's probably one of the top five most taken feats in the game I would imagine) shows that they are indeed inherently clumsy, in that they have nothing built into their design that makes them more agile than average, and they have a lower incentive to invest in dex unless they go for dex to damage.
True they do strike quickly, and run quickly. That is true.
Initiative is a nebulously defined concept to a degree that you cannot call a character with underwhelming initiative clumsy or slow. If anything, striking first seems more at odds with traditional depictions of the monk archetype and its emphasis of understanding and accepting the situation first, then act only if necessary. You're less likely to see the monk archetype depicted in media as bursting out of nowhere to knock someone down unless they're a ninja type than you are to see them attacked, negate the attack through some superhuman feat of awareness like catching an arrow or dodging an attack they couldn't have possibly seen coming, and then punch someone in the face.
What's more, +5 initiative is still pretty good, especially for someone who actively chose to practically dump dexterity. And honestly, if 12 is the best they could afford to make their dexterity, you should probably consider a higher point buy for your home game, because it benefits the MAD classes way more.
Most monsters are in that +2 to +4 range, and don't really scale much with level, so at +5, you're still going to beat them most of the time.
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@Udinaas And? Just because one build is less optimal doesn't invalidate it. You can easily make a fine dex based monk that fits the vision you've described.
The Wizard will still go before you most of the time though, The Wizard always goes first.
You seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on initiative alone and ignoring the other aspects of the class that make it clear they're not clumsy and slow. Good Reflex Save, Flying Kick, Fast Movement, High Jump, Evasion, Improved Evasion etc.
Yes Jurassic Pratt. I'm not saying it invalidates it, I'm not even complaining about the class. It just think it is interesting that the design of the class pushes you in the direction of making a clumsy monk.
Well, it pushes you away from investing in dex in general, and does nothing to compensate for that by boosting the things that rely on dex.
Edit. Dex: Well it's relative. 12 is not clumsy for a commoner certainly, but for a martial artist I would say that it is not what I would have imagined. Like I said, maybe my image of the monk is what is out of whack.
That's true, your reflex save probably won't be higher than say an alchemists, which is a book learning scientist class, but evasion and improved evasion help you thematically seem more agile.
My catfolk unchained monk [Scaled Fist] does just fine with minimal str and high dex.
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Good Reflex Save, High Jump, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, and Mobility as Bonus feats, Feather Balance.
I think the core image he is working with is the kind of scene where the bandit reaches for his sword, but he is ALREADY DEAD ("NANI!?") before he can even draw the sword. Either the martial artist drew their own sword faster and cut the bandit's head off, or he punched the bandit's throat in.
Another example would be the martial artist that caught the surprise attack arrow that was shot at him (while the deflect arrow line of feats can be questionable in terms of optimization, they present a good example of Udinass' problem- they do not work if you are flatfooted).
These are fairly common tropes for martial arts movies.
Good Reflex Save, High Jump, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, and Mobility as Bonus feats, Feather Balance.I think the core image he is working with is the kind of scene where the bandit reaches for his sword, but he is ALREADY DEAD ("NANI!?") before he can even draw the sword. Either the martial artist drew their own sword faster and cut the bandit's head off, or he punched the bandit's throat in.
Another example would be the martial artist that caught the surprise attack arrow that was shot at him (while the deflect arrow line of feats can be questionable in terms of optimization, they present a good example of Udinass' problem- they do not work if you are flatfooted).
These are fairly common tropes for martial arts movies.
Yes, that's it. I will concede that I am placing too much emphasis on initiative in my judgement of clumsiness, but just because it seems like such a huge part of what my own image is. But Jurassic Pratts bonus feats and abilities are some excellent arguments against my accusation of sluggishness. I guess I just feel like the monk should have a mechanic like the aforementioned sohei, or the kensai magus, or even the inquisitors. I feel like monks should be super reactive, but not only do they not have anything inherent in their class that boosts initiative, but other classes, such as the inquisitor, who don't strike me as thematically fast, do.
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lemeres: The counterpoint would be that the monks/martial artists in those movies might have FOCUSED on initiative and therefor taken improved initiative, Ready for Anything, Hermean Paragon, Veteran of Battle, ect...
That and you can make that same argument for spy/thief [tomb raider], fighters, barbarians or pretty much ANY martial from movies. Looking at a first level fighter/barbarian after watching 100 is going to make them seem lacking from what happened on screen.
The martial arts from movies are also rarely 'low' level ones, so in pathfinder terms they have plenty of training for feats: As such it seems perfectly in line to pick up ones that maximize your combat ability.
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I feel like monks should be super reactive, but not only do they not have anything inherent in their class that boosts initiative, but other classes, such as the inquisitor, who don't strike me as thematically fast, do.
The thing is that most heroes aren't seen as "thematically" slow. Rogues are seen as slipping in and out of combat, swashbucklers cutting ropes and swinging on chandeliers, arcane masters quickly reaction to magic, investigators seeing moves ahead of others, oracles literally seeing into the future, ect... You can make a justification for just about EVERY class to be "thematically fast".
I feel like monks should be super reactive, but not only do they not have anything inherent in their class that boosts initiative, but other classes, such as the inquisitor, who don't strike me as thematically fast, do.The thing is that most heroes aren't seen as "thematically" slow. Rogues are seen as slipping in and out of combat, swashbucklers cutting ropes and swinging on chandeliers, arcane masters quickly reaction to magic, investigators seeing moves ahead of others, oracles literally seeing into the future, ect... You can make a justification for just about EVERY class to be "thematically fast".
That's true, although paizo has given some of them built in initiative bonuses and not others, so they must feel like some classes thematically are quicker to react than others. I guess they just have a different opinion than I do of the ones that merit them.
Well, except for wizard, maybe. They are expected to schrodinger it up and have 20 counter measures up at any time (whether as general paranoia or due to careful planning depends on the characterization), to the point they don't even need to personally react.
But I tend to think of the trope of a split second, quick draw duel as being more core to the martial arts and cowboy movies.
But I tend to think of the trope of a split second, quick draw duel as being more core to the martial arts and cowboy movies.
LOL Well you watch the newest sherlock holmes movies and you'd think that investigators would be able to react before your enemies because they reacted to an almost imperceptible clue/stimuli. Or you read that your oracle has "Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second" and wonder why no initiative bonus? Preternatural reflexes sounds pretty martial arts/cowboy movies.
How many classes really have a built-in initiative bonus? It's really not that common, even among classes that aren't in any sense "clumsy.`
So if you want good initiative, you can invest in it. Measurement of "Clumsiness" anyway should be some combination of "bad reflex save" and "no real value in dexterity." It's not like monks don't need dexterity- without some reasonable dex score they end up with pretty wretched AC.
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Chained Monks don't get any sort of bonus to initiative. You see Dex based chained monks as a reactive defense of "I can't get enough stats to be good at anything, so I am forced to optimize down one path." You could build an Unchained Monk like a standard monk, Agile AMoF, but you are no longer forced to. In some martial arts films and styles speed isn't every thing. Maybe having the strength to end a fight in a single blow is now what you are going for. Maybe you want the Con to stand on the front line like a barbarian now that you have the hit die for it. Unchained monk did break some things for me (mostly archetypes I love), but it made all monks much less cookie cutter.
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I think the term "clumsy" is a bit of a stretch here. Even a swole monk is going to be rocking a 14 or so dexterity if they want to make sure their armor class has an impact on combat.
Heck, you can still totally go dex focused with unchained. Just make sure you have 14 strength or so to ensure your hits deal damage, and then slap on something like the Pummeling Style feats to stack that damage. This way, you negate the punishment of DR while still getting good damage out of a simple Finesse build that doesn't even need to get an Agile enchant if they don't want.
I think the core image he is working with is the kind of scene where the bandit reaches for his sword, but he is ALREADY DEAD ("NANI!?") before he can even draw the sword.
"Omae wa mo shindeiru"
Initiative is a measure of reaction timing, not clumsiness.
A clutz with high initiative would be the first person to trip over themselves when a threat arises. :-P
My catfolk unchained monk [Scaled Fist] does just fine with minimal str and high dex.
How does that character deal meaningful damage then?
My best guess is that some players of unchained monks are really bothered by their poor Will saves and thus feel compelled to bump up wisdom at the expense of dexterity. They probably wouldn't be doing that if they weren't used to the chained monk with all good saves.
My best guess is that some players of unchained monks are really bothered by their poor Will saves and thus feel compelled to bump up wisdom at the expense of dexterity. They probably wouldn't be doing that if they weren't used to the chained monk with all good saves.
Even with the core monk, barring a dex-build, you're going to want to prioritize Wis>Dex, since they both add the same benefit to your armor class and will saves are more important than reflex saves.
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My catfolk unchained monk [Scaled Fist] does just fine with minimal str and high dex.How does that character deal meaningful damage then?
FCB: Monk, Add 1/2 to the monk’s damage rolls with claw attacks and claw blades. A monk who selects this bonus at 1st level also treats claw blades as a monk weapon. If he is an unchained monk, he can use his style strikes with unarmed strike or claw blade attacks.
Piranha strike: -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage roll.
EDIT: Ascetic Style for unarmed damage with claw blade.
Agile clawblades after some levels followed by Frost Fist Amulet/Deliquescent Gloves.
But anyone can take improved initiative. My image of the monk is someone who should have magnificently fast reactions, but the mechanics of the class itself don't lead to that.
Magnificently fast reactions = High Reflex Saves and Evasion.
The Monk as a whole suffers from MAD in possibly the MADdest of all possible ways, though, which is where most of the issues come from, IMHO.
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Here is an excellent guide to the Unchained monk: YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD
Secret Wizard has goes into detail on differing builds, Weapon vs Unarmed Strike, Str vs Dex and an extensive breakdown of styles and archetypes.
I have Perfect Scholar UMonk Str build but is far from clumsy (Initiative is a 2 but I can charge thru allies squares/over dificlut terrain so no need to beat pcs/npcs there).
Disclaimer I am not Secret Wizard, I have never spoke with Him/Her, I did not gain permission to link his guide but respect his work and it is a great education on the subject.
Liber is my UMonk Character.
My catfolk unchained monk [Scaled Fist] does just fine with minimal str and high dex.How does that character deal meaningful damage then?FCB: Monk, Add 1/2 to the monk’s damage rolls with claw attacks and claw blades. A monk who selects this bonus at 1st level also treats claw blades as a monk weapon. If he is an unchained monk, he can use his style strikes with unarmed strike or claw blade attacks.
Piranha strike: -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage roll.
EDIT: Ascetic Style for unarmed damage with claw blade.
Agile clawblades after some levels followed by Frost Fist Amulet/Deliquescent Gloves.
You got a back up plan, should you ever lose your agile clawblades?
You got a back up plan, should you ever lose your agile clawblades?My catfolk unchained monk [Scaled Fist] does just fine with minimal str and high dex.How does that character deal meaningful damage then?FCB: Monk, Add 1/2 to the monk’s damage rolls with claw attacks and claw blades. A monk who selects this bonus at 1st level also treats claw blades as a monk weapon. If he is an unchained monk, he can use his style strikes with unarmed strike or claw blade attacks.
Piranha strike: -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage roll.
EDIT: Ascetic Style for unarmed damage with claw blade.
Agile clawblades after some levels followed by Frost Fist Amulet/Deliquescent Gloves.
Does the Fighter/Barbarian/other weapon-based Martial need a backup plan if they lose their +2 Greatsword/Butchering Axe/etc? At least if the Catfolk *does* lose their claw blades they still have their Monk unarmed strike damage for lethal and flurry.
You got a back up plan, should you ever lose your agile clawblades?My catfolk unchained monk [Scaled Fist] does just fine with minimal str and high dex.How does that character deal meaningful damage then?FCB: Monk, Add 1/2 to the monk’s damage rolls with claw attacks and claw blades. A monk who selects this bonus at 1st level also treats claw blades as a monk weapon. If he is an unchained monk, he can use his style strikes with unarmed strike or claw blade attacks.
Piranha strike: -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage roll.
EDIT: Ascetic Style for unarmed damage with claw blade.
Agile clawblades after some levels followed by Frost Fist Amulet/Deliquescent Gloves.
Why would I lose them? And if I did, it would just be dex damage leaving me with 1/2 level + piranha [it works on claws and she has 2]. Hit stays the same as I have weapon finesse [agile is just for damage].
As a worn weapon, I can't see that it can be disarmed [and I've never seen a DM suggest that it could] and i don't play in games with sundering/destroying items as common tactics as I find the idea of destroying your loot borderline insane for most PC/NPC's.
the monks in my groups have both had low dex. They both had the lowest initiatives in the group, with the one exception of a dwarf cleric in heavy armor. That seems odd to me, because i think of a monk as a nimble guy or gal with lightning reflexes, walking around in no armor, ready to leap into action at a moment's notice. Maybe they are so monkish and wise that they are constantly lost in pondering and easily suprised.
They aren't "lost in pondering", they carefully think about their actions rather than rushing in half-cocked like some imbecile!
I do kind of want to build a Catfolk Menhir Guardian who is dex-based that stacks the Catfolk FCB with Shifter's Edge to get +1/2 +1/2 damage per Level to damage when finessing your claws. Sadly, the Menhir Guardian isn't compatible with the UMonk and the Catfolk Wis penalty hurts.
I do kind of want to build a Catfolk Menhir Guardian who is dex-based that stacks the Catfolk FCB with Shifter's Edge to get +1/2 +1/2 damage per Level to damage when finessing your claws. Sadly, the Menhir Guardian isn't compatible with the UMonk and the Catfolk Wis penalty hurts.
Yep, it's a shame Nornkith and Menhir Guardian both swap out stunning fist.
An options is to make a human with Racial Heritage [catfolk] + Menhir Guardian.
I do kind of want to build a Catfolk Menhir Guardian who is dex-based that stacks the Catfolk FCB with Shifter's Edge to get +1/2 +1/2 damage per Level to damage when finessing your claws. Sadly, the Menhir Guardian isn't compatible with the UMonk and the Catfolk Wis penalty hurts.
I question the legality of this, given that Menhir Guardian technically only counts their levels as Shifter levels for the purpose of Shifter's Claws, but if your GM lets you use it for Shifter's Edge too then that's actually a pretty cool idea.
I do kind of want to build a Catfolk Menhir Guardian who is dex-based that stacks the Catfolk FCB with Shifter's Edge to get +1/2 +1/2 damage per Level to damage when finessing your claws. Sadly, the Menhir Guardian isn't compatible with the UMonk and the Catfolk Wis penalty hurts.I question the legality of this, given that Menhir Guardian technically only counts their levels as Shifter levels for the purpose of Shifter's Claws, but if your GM lets you use it for Shifter's Edge too then that's actually a pretty cool idea.
IMO it works, as you have a shifter level for the claws and it's attack with the claws. It's much like asking for your wizard level for a familiar feat.
"you can always substitute your effective wizard level for the purpose of determining your familiar’s abilities for “arcane spellcaster level” to determine the available improved familiars for your character".
I see no reason why your "effective shifter levels" for shifter's claws don't count for a feat, that modifies those claws, asking for shifter levels.
Personally I'd agree, and would probably rule such if I was GMing (not that that's likely to happen soon, and especially not for this build.) That said, I know some people would be very strict on the level thing only applying to scaling your claws, so expect table variation.
expect table variation.
LOL That can be said of literally any rule: Not long ago I saw a thread about someone not allowing 'take 10' on crafting...
On shifters edge and Menhir Guardian, I personally haven't run into anyone that's thought it wouldn't/shouldn't work other than some people on this site.