Kingmaker, without the kingdom building

[Curghann]

So my group recently finished up VV and it seems like the kingdom building stuff is starting to drag a bit. We lost a member of the group during VV who was very interested in it, and while the others are willing to do it...it's mostly just become a "what do we need to keep our rolls so we only fail on 1's while continuing to expand and then reach to events as the occur".

There's no real driving engagement in that aspect at this point and I dont want to damage the overall experience by forcing them to continue with the kingdom stuff if they dont really want to.

The books certainly have the "kingdom in the background" rules, but I'm more looking for any words of wisdom or simple observations from anyone who's run their whole campaign that way or perhaps even did a transition mid-game like I'm considering.

Thanks in advance.

[Reverse]

Army rules, used in the 5th book, rely on your kingdom's various BP and economies to justify how many armies you can afford to operate. But if the players are content with a bit of GM handwaving and light railroading ("you can afford these 3 armies, and that's it"), that works fine.

Beyond that, you can simply have them continue in their royal duties, take the stats out of it, and either give them vague decisions or make the decisions for them. "Over the next year, you build a castle to go with your new settlement over in this hex".

The kingdom building mini-game is interesting if players want to play it, but if it's causing general disinterest the experience is not significantly hurt by removing it.

The Kingdom in the Background sidebars suggest the PCs are simply the heroes of the kingdom, putting the burden of decision on other NPCs, but there's no reason you can't use it's suggested growth and simply have the PCs still be the various rulers and leaders.

[Warped Savant]

As both a player and as a GM of Kingmaker I found the kingdom stuff started to drag at the same point as you are. As Reverse said, the 5th book kind of relies on the kingdom building aspect but it's easy to hand-wave.
Book 5 tells you what to roll instead of the army's morale (I think it's a will save for the commander) and the sample armies on page 59 tell you what's required to have an army of that size/what the players need to do in order to have an army of that monster. As for what they cost in build points.... it's not worth the bookkeeping required if your players aren't enjoying it. Don't worry about the build point cost and use the "Kingdom in the Background" sidebars so that you can describe how large the kingdom is and you should be fine.

But maybe roll random kingdom events if you want to put more description into what's going on with the kingdom and the players can have a mini-adventure to deal with anything if there's a problem (ie: assassination attempt.)

[pennywit]

Suggestion: Run it "behind the scenes" for your players. They can offer suggestions as to how the kingdom should be run ("More schools!! More learning!!") and then you, impersonating their major-domo, can do it for them.

[Curghann]

I think I'm likely going to start running it in the background. Will have to go check those sections of the modules a little more closely.

Any words of advice from DM's who've done the same? Any particular pitfalls to watch out for or avoid?

[tonyz]

Kingmaker expects about a third of the XP to come from kingdom building and exploration. Be ready to have some additional encounters to replace the XP that the kingdom isn’t giving them.

[TheIneffableCheese]

This is pretty much exactly what happened with the group I'm running through Kingmaker. The player who is running the Ruler of the kingdom is a pretty hardcore tabletop gamer, and he absolutely broke the kingdom building rules in a matter of about a year's worth of turns. He had an economic engine rolling and resources built that essentially no check could fail except for natural 1's, and even those didn't matter because the treasury was so full nothing was more than a minor setback that could be pretty easily bought off. It ceased being anything but a chore to get through. As soon as I realized it was just spinning wheels so they could roll some checks they weren't going to matter, I talked to the group and started hand-waving the kingdom details.

However, now I'm starting prep for part 5 and I'm realizing the mass combat stuff is going to be more difficult to hand-wave. I'm thinking I will give them a BP budget to build armies, maybe with a monthly refresh rate to force them to think longer term. Does anyone have any idea what a good BP budget would be for this? I may just go back to the last point we were doing the kingdom building (we were using an Excel sheet found through these forums), and base their current levels on that, but just multiply things by a factor of three or whatever seems reasonable.

My goal is to have the mass combat campaign be a fun diversion that requires some strategic thought, but not get too bogged down in the minutiae.

[Tinalles]

As others have pointed out, the kingdom building system has some major flaws.

1) The system involves a ton of bookkeeping that rapidly becomes tedious.

2) Any gamers worth their salt are going to figure out how to build a kingdom that can pass all checks on anything but a nat 1, thus rendering the exercise largely pointless.

But I still like the flavor of kingdom building a lot. It's cool! So to address these things, here are some suggestions.

Automate the stats. There are at least two computerized versions of the ruleset that I'm aware of -- the Kingdom tracking spreadsheet by Brad Turner, which requires Excel, the Kingdom Manager App by Daddy DM. I've heard rumors of a web-based one out there but I don't think it's been publicly released.

Anyway, let a computer crunch the numbers so the players can get on with the playing.

Don't let the players read the kingdom building rules. Instead, make it a mini-game: let them know how the core of the system works (stability/loyalty/economy, the turn sequence, leadership roles), and then give them a list of stuff they might build. But don't tell them what the buildings do mechanically. Let them discover that as they build it. It will make it feel much more organic.

Build in events triggered by buildings. E.g., if they build a caster's tower (and it's not explicitly for a PC), it comes complete with a zany gnome wizard who's got some bizarre hobby. If they build a Witch's Hut, the Old Beldame moves into it. If they build an alchemist's shop, they get a creepy, sallow shopkeep whose fingers are permanently stained with chemicals and always charges above market rates.

You don't need full stats for these NPCs usually, just a general description (gnome wizard 3, obsessed with researching a spell to turn milk into cheese, completely ignores people who point out that it's perfectly possible to do manually.)

Use unrest. When you start getting to the point where the kingdom passes any check on a 2+, start throwing extra Unrest at the players any time it seems plausible. Neighboring kingdom vanishes inexplicably? 8 Unrest! "We're scared, what are you doing to protect us!?"

Leader dies? 2 Unrest! "We liked our Councilor, everything was going great -- who knows what the new one will be like!"

PC dies? 4 Unrest! "Grungar the Mighty was a total bad-ass, but he got his face eaten by a giant plant! The kingdom depended on his strong arm, we're vulnerable now!"

Kingdom spends kingdom funds on PC benefits? Unrest! "What do you mean the kingdom can afford to raise the king from the dead, but not my dear sweet wife Nellie? Wasn't she every bit as valuable to the kingdom? I demand premium health coverage, including resurrection with a reasonable co-pay!"

The complaints don't necessarily need to be rational. People in large groups can easily become irrational, and they're mostly to add flavor to the mechanical penalty you're adding to make the players sweat a little bit over how hard it is to manage the kingdom.

I can't lay claim to all of these ideas. Go listen to Reverse's podcast of the solo Kingmaker he's been running for his wife; I lifted a bunch of these ideas from his implementation.