Let's see:
While a shifter uses wild shape to assume her aspect’s major form, her natural attacks gain the same benefits granted by her shifter claws ability. If the form she takes has claw attacks, she can use either the base damage of her shifter claws or the damage of the form’s claws, whichever is greater.
Given that the 'base damage' is size dependant without wild shape (values for Medium and Small are listed), I'd expect it to also be size dependant with wild shape.
Otherwise you would have to justify why to take the Medium size value instead of the Small size one.
Shifter claws deal damage based on your size. If you change into an aspect that is larger than your normal size, do your claws deal damage like a Shifter of your current size, or like a Shifter of your normal size?
I'd disagree with SheepishEidolon. You can either pick your shifter base claw damage, which is based on your normal form, OR the damage of the forms natural weapon damage which is based on its size. Nothing indicates that the base damage scale changes after creation.
I agree with SheepishEidolon. Your shifter base claw damage isn't based on your normal form, it's based on your size.
This goes both ways--if you wild shape into a smaller form, your claw damage will also go down, same as if you'd been whammied wih reduce person.
I agree with SheepishEidolon. Your shifter base claw damage isn't based on your normal form, it's based on your size.
Where does it say it's based on anything other than your normal size? All I see is that is states it's the "base damage of her shifter claws": not the 'modified by new size amount' as that isn't the base. IMO size changes are added to base and not changing the base, much like a +10 enhancement bonus to speed doesn't change the base speed or a +1 to hit doesn't increase your BAB.
EDIT: So, for me, taking a smaller form benefits you more than taking a larger one when using this feature.
Graystone's interpretation would result in your base form changing the effectiveness of your polymorphed form's natural weapons, which seems unlikely. There's nothing excepting it from the normal size changes, so apply the size changes as normal. (It also explains the lower-than-Monk progression with the size change making up the difference.)
I agree with Graystone's interpretation. It always read to me as a way to increase smaller forms damage potential so they aren't as crippling a choice to take. Notice that it doesn't help the already powerful large combat forms.
"Base damage of her shifter claws" seems really hard to argue means "damage of her shifter claws as modified by her current form's size"
Hmm. I was reading it as using the base damage as base damage, but looking at it again, you really have to torture it to get that interpretation out of it. Well, dang. Good for mouse form, sucky for small-size Shifters.
I agree with SheepishEidolon. Your shifter base claw damage isn't based on your normal form, it's based on your size.Where does it say it's based on anything other than your normal size? All I see is that is states it's the "base damage of her shifter claws": not the 'modified by new size amount' as that isn't the base. IMO size changes are added to base and not changing the base, much like a +10 enhancement bonus to speed doesn't change the base speed or a +1 to hit doesn't increase your BAB.
EDIT: So, for me, taking a smaller form benefits you more than taking a larger one when using this feature.
At will, a shifter in her natural form can extend her claws as a swift action to use as a weapon. This magical transformation is fueled as much by the shifter’s faith in the natural world as it is by inborn talent. The claws on each hand can be used as a primary natural attack, dealing 1d4 points of piercing and slashing damage (1d3 if she is Small). If she uses one of her claw attacks in concert with a weapon held in the other hand, the claw acts as a secondary natural attack instead.
Your shifter claw damage is based on your size. What form you're in isn't relevant--only size matters. (Take that, Yoda!)
I agree with SheepishEidolon. Your shifter base claw damage isn't based on your normal form, it's based on your size.Where does it say it's based on anything other than your normal size? All I see is that is states it's the "base damage of her shifter claws": not the 'modified by new size amount' as that isn't the base. IMO size changes are added to base and not changing the base, much like a +10 enhancement bonus to speed doesn't change the base speed or a +1 to hit doesn't increase your BAB.
EDIT: So, for me, taking a smaller form benefits you more than taking a larger one when using this feature.
At will, a shifter in her natural form can extend her claws as a swift action to use as a weapon. This magical transformation is fueled as much by the shifter’s faith in the natural world as it is by inborn talent. The claws on each hand can be used as a primary natural attack, dealing 1d4 points of piercing and slashing damage (1d3 if she is Small). If she uses one of her claw attacks in concert with a weapon held in the other hand, the claw acts as a secondary natural attack instead.Your shifter claw damage is based on your size. What form you're in isn't relevant--only size matters. (Take that, Yoda!)
You missed a section.
If the form she takes has claw attacks, she can use either the base damage of her shifter claws or the damage of the form’s claws, whichever is greater.
Base damage is calculated by using your actual forms size. Damage modified by virtual or actual size changes is by definition NOT your base damage. The inclusion of the word base refutes your claiming that size matters. :P
"Base damage" simply means the damage the claws do without other modifiers, such as Strength bonus or enhancement bonuses. A Medium greatsword's base damage is 2d6; if you enlarge the wielder while she holds the greatsword, the greatsword's base damage becomes 3d6. Shifter claws are no different--like a greatsword, their base damage depends on its size (and thus your size, for natural weapons). Nowhere is "base damage" defined as or implied to be "damage while in your normal form", so I'm not sure what you were going for there.
This seems to be a similar issue to the warpriest. If I have a large weapon or an impact weapon does that change the sacred weapon damage?
Until clarified I'm siding with graystone. Replacing the entire damage of the animal with the base normal damage die of the claw for the shifter seems to be more in line with what the rules say.
Base means unmodified. It just gets MORE complicated if we assume it works like you say.
If it was as you say, then "the damage of the form’s claws" should ALSO read "the base damage". As/is it would mean you pick either the unmodified by any stat die OR the modified by stats damage for your form's claws as one used base and the other doesn't. As I assume you're meant to add stats to both, I'm going to stick with my read.
EDIT:
I'm not sure what you were going for there.
What I'm 'going for' is how I see the wording works with the rules in place. I see it like Chess Pwn mentioned with the warpriest. If it's meant to work as you have said, then I think it's worded incorrectly.
What about improved natural attack (claws)?
It depends if the Dm rules that the increase makes a new base damage or it a modifier to the base. This also gets interesting when you use shifter claws on a non-claw attack: does it still increase the dice?
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This seems to be a similar issue to the warpriest. If I have a large weapon or an impact weapon does that change the sacred weapon damage?
Yeah, I imagine the purview of the Shifter Claws would be identical to the Warpriest Sacred Weapon.
That being said, in the case of the Warpriest, the weapon doesn't matter, only your size does. Ironically enough, a Warpriest affected by the Lead Blades spell would apply those benefits to Sacred Weapon because the spell targets the Warpriest, not a weapon, which means any weapon wielded with Sacred Weapon damage is one size bigger than usual. Same works with Strong Jaw.
The problem between the Shifter and Warpriest is that Sacred Weapon does compare based on weapon size, whereas the Shifter doesn't. Needless to say, I'd rule that the Shifter Claws is based off of the Shifter's unaltered size, due that the base damage scaling with size effects renders the aspect of dealing different amounts of damage being niche or pointless, since in all cases of size comparison, the Shifter Claws do less damage.
Of course, maybe the devs really wanted a "worst class ever" and may have intended for the pointless scaling. Either way, it is FAQ worthy.
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This seems to be a similar issue to the warpriest. If I have a large weapon or an impact weapon does that change the sacred weapon damage?Yeah, I imagine the purview of the Shifter Claws would be identical to the Warpriest Sacred Weapon.
That being said, in the case of the Warpriest, the weapon doesn't matter, only your size does. Ironically enough, a Warpriest affected by the Lead Blades spell would apply those benefits to Sacred Weapon because the spell targets the Warpriest, not a weapon, which means any weapon wielded with Sacred Weapon damage is one size bigger than usual. Same works with Strong Jaw.
The problem between the Shifter and Warpriest is that Sacred Weapon does compare based on weapon size, whereas the Shifter doesn't. Needless to say, I'd rule that the Shifter Claws is based off of the Shifter's unaltered size, due that the base damage scaling with size effects renders the aspect of dealing different amounts of damage being niche or pointless, since in all cases of size comparison, the Shifter Claws do less damage.
Of course, maybe the devs really wanted a "worst class ever" and may have intended for the pointless scaling. Either way, it is FAQ worthy.
Lead blades having your weapon hit as if it's bigger doesn't change the warpriest size or the size you treat him as and thus doesn't change the sacred weapon damage. The Large Greatsword can be treated as bigger doing 4d6 or replaced by sacred weapon damage of a medium WP of 1d6.
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If a halfling Warpriest is polymorphed into a large gorilla, and picks up a large version of their focus weapon, which value do you use for their sacred weapon dice, that of a small Warpriest or a large Warpriest?
If the character is large it deals large damage, if the character is small it deals small, if the character is medium it deals medium. All sacred weapon cares about is the character's current size, it doesn't care about the weapon it's size or any effective changes to the weapon's size.
So, then, if they had Weapon Focus (Slam) they would use either the gorillas slam damage, or the sacred weapon damage of a large Warpriest, right?
Yes.
Base means unmodified. It just gets MORE complicated if we assume it works like you say.
If it was as you say, then "the damage of the form’s claws" should ALSO read "the base damage". As/is it would mean you pick either the unmodified by any stat die OR the modified by stats damage for your form's claws as one used base and the other doesn't. As I assume you're meant to add stats to both, I'm going to stick with my read.
EDIT:
I'm not sure what you were going for there.What I'm 'going for' is how I see the wording works with the rules in place. I see it like Chess Pwn mentioned with the warpriest. If it's meant to work as you have said, then I think it's worded incorrectly.
Apologies! I wasn't implying any nefarious/cheesy intentions there--I really didn't understand (and possibly still don't) how you were parsing the text to arrive at the conclusion you reached. We disagree from time to time but I've never gotten the impression that you were anything but sincere in your interpretations.
What about improved natural attack (claws)?It depends if the Dm rules that the increase makes a new base damage or it a modifier to the base.I think your approaching that from the wrong angle. "Shifter Claws" is a supernatural class feature that lets you grow Claws (a natural attack). You take Improved Natural Attack (claw) not (shifter claws). When you get claws from any source, increase their damage by one step. The feat affects the weapons created by the feature, but does not change the feature itself.
Thus:
This also gets interesting when you use shifter claws on a non-claw attack: does it still increase the dice?No.
It's a variable depending on how you see Improved Natural Attack (claw) working. If it adds to any claw, then you can transfer it to any claw but if you see it as boosting an existing natural attacks base damage then it doesn't. Basically is it a passive or active buff.
And the answer to how you see it changes how it works with shifters claws. If it's passive, you look at the new base and compare it unmodified forms attack but if it's active, you compare the base claws with the buff vs the forms claws with the buff.
And the difference in view changes whether the feat alters non-claw damage or not.
It is confusing to me that you say it should work like 'sacred damage' as your reason for why it does NOT work like 'sacred damage'.So, then, if they had Weapon Focus (Slam) they would use either the gorillas slam damage, or the sacred weapon damage of a large Warpriest, right?Yes.
I never said it was supposed to work like sacred weapon. I said this issue is similar to sacred weapons for WP.
Sacred weapon currently seems to ignore lead blades or impact or having a large weapon. Things that all normally change the weapons damage. But since it says to replace the weapons damage with the Sacred weapon damage ALL of that goes away. IF it was changed to replace the base damage die of the weapon with the sacred weapon's damage then having a larger weapon would increase it as would impact and lead blades, they'd increase the sacred weapons damage die as the weapon's new damage die. So if the WP had weapon focus greatsword and as the gorilla picked up a small greatsword it'd still use large sacred weapon damage instead of reduced sacred weapon damage.Shifter claws are similar, trading the large claws for the shifter's base damage die which means that size modifications have already been factored in before we are deciding to swap or not. We aren't replacing base for base but base for total. That likewise improved natural attack claw that lets you treat your claws as bigger or impact would be erased if you chose to use your base claw damage as these are modifying your claw damage that you're trading away.
meaning that whatever answer they give should hopefully clarify both things as they are using similar rules of replacing damage.
Apologies! I wasn't implying any nefarious/cheesy intentions there
Cool then! It seems I took 'going for' in the wrong light, so I apologize in return. ;)
I not sure what else I can say to illustrate my point of view but feel free to point out anything you think I missed/overlooked. It's always hard to know if others see what you type is as clear as it seems to you.
I really didn't understand (and possibly still don't) how you were parsing the text to arrive at the conclusion you reached.
So we'll use the WP to start. It's sacred weapon is 1d6 and a longsword is 1d8. A small longsword is 1d6 and a large is 2d6. If the WP is medium size all of these do 1d6 damage.
Now lets add impact/lead blades, which lets the base weapon damage count as larger.
Now we get M of 2d6, S of 1d8 and L of 3d6. All of this is the weapon's damage which we throw away if using Sacred weapon's 1d6 damage.
Similar to Shifter. The Shifter's claws do 1d4 damage. If he turns into a large bear whose claws do 1d8 damage he can either use the large animal claw's damage of 1d8, or replace all of that with his base shifter claw damage of 1d4. The large size was applied to the normal claws and we are throwing the normal claws away for shifter claws and since size had already been factored in, size doesn't change the shifter claws' damage.
the shifter is a little more confusing when it comes to impact and improved natural attack of if they work or not at increasing the 1d4 claw damage.
What your view seems to be saying is replace base weapon damage with new damage amount and then apply all size increases. So the WP would do 1d6 with medium longsword but do 1d8 with the large and 1d4 with the small. And impact/lead blades modifies this new base weapon damage to be 1d8 m, 1d6 s, 2d6 l.
Same with shifter, you're saying to replace the bear's 1d6 claw base with the shifter's 1d4 claw base and then apply the large size to get 1d6.
We feel the rules say take the current weapon's total and replace all of it with this new amount (base 1d4 claw damage) that comes in after all size changes to the weapon.
Lead blades having your weapon hit as if it's bigger doesn't change the warpriest size or the size you treat him as and thus doesn't change the sacred weapon damage. The Large Greatsword can be treated as bigger doing 4d6 or replaced by sacred weapon damage of a medium WP of 1d6.This seems to be a similar issue to the warpriest. If I have a large weapon or an impact weapon does that change the sacred weapon damage?Yeah, I imagine the purview of the Shifter Claws would be identical to the Warpriest Sacred Weapon.
That being said, in the case of the Warpriest, the weapon doesn't matter, only your size does. Ironically enough, a Warpriest affected by the Lead Blades spell would apply those benefits to Sacred Weapon because the spell targets the Warpriest, not a weapon, which means any weapon wielded with Sacred Weapon damage is one size bigger than usual. Same works with Strong Jaw.
The problem between the Shifter and Warpriest is that Sacred Weapon does compare based on weapon size, whereas the Shifter doesn't. Needless to say, I'd rule that the Shifter Claws is based off of the Shifter's unaltered size, due that the base damage scaling with size effects renders the aspect of dealing different amounts of damage being niche or pointless, since in all cases of size comparison, the Shifter Claws do less damage.
Of course, maybe the devs really wanted a "worst class ever" and may have intended for the pointless scaling. Either way, it is FAQ worthy.
It would still increase because the Sacred Weapon damage he is doing with that weapon is treated as one size bigger than normal. It has to do with every weapon he wields, regardless of what weapon damage type he uses, being treated as one size bigger than what it actually is.
The reason Impact doesn't work is because it's an effect on the weapon and doesn't interact with the Warpriest or his Sacred Weapon feature whatsoever. Lead Blades, on the other hand, is an effect that targets the Warpriest, whose benefits he applies to any weapon he uses, whether they are utilizing Sacred Weapon damage or not.
@Chesspwn
But size was factored in twice with the Warpriest Gorilla too.
What about a non-wildshaped shifter who gets hit with enlarge person?
How was size factored in twice? A large WP uses the large sacred weapon damage. That damage is not further increased by anything. Having oversized slams that are treated as larger or something to that effect would not increase the sacred weapon's damage.
And yes, if a Shifter gets enlarged it's claws will deal 1d6 damage. If the shifter had a line that when enlarged it can trade it's shifter's claw damage with the base shifter's claw damage then the shifter could trade that 1d6 large claw with 1d4 as that's the base damage for his claw from his class.
It would still increase because the Sacred Weapon damage he is doing with that weapon is treated as one size bigger than normal. It has to do with every weapon he wields, regardless of what weapon damage type he uses, being treated as one size bigger than what it actually is.
All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades
Since the WP doesn't care about the size of the weapon having the weapon deal damage as if it was larger doesn't influence sacred weapon's replacing the weapon's damage with it's damage that is solely dependant on your current size. That longsword your holding now does base 2d6 damage, or you can trade that with sacred weapon damage that doesn't care about weapon size or effective size.
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That's the base damage for his claw from his class at his previous size. I am not seeing what wording diffrence you percieve between the two abilities that causes one to determine its value using your current size, but the other to determine its value off your birth size.
Size was factored into the gorillas slam, and the sacred damage that would replace it...
The sacred weapon's damage was not increased because of your size, you have a new base amount that sacred weapon gives because you are large. I am not getting my sacred weapon damage and then increasing it because of my size, I just have my sacred weapon damage, which is decided based on my current size.
maybe you're confusing things because it seems you think that because I say these are similar that they are the same in all things? I'm not sure. It's hard to understand why you think I'm applying something twice when I'm not.
No 1d4 is the base damage for his claws ALWAYS.
BASE damage is where you start before applying actual size increase or effective size increases, we know this from the FAQ that says you can only have 1 actual size increase and 1 effective size increase apply to a weapon, thus the base weapon damage must be before actual or effective size increases. The Shifter's BASE damage for his claws is 1d4.
so BASE 1d4 with an actual size increase from enlarge person gets me to 1d6 claw damage. But the base damage of my claws is still 1d4. Base is the unmodified amount, the amount before any actual or effective size increases.
That's why the BASE changes to be higher damage die as he levels, if they were actual size increases or effective size increases then they wouldn't stack with those, thus those are just setting the new base damage die for the claws.
I really didn't understand (and possibly still don't) how you were parsing the text to arrive at the conclusion you reached.So we'll use the WP to start. It's sacred weapon is 1d6 and a longsword is 1d8. A small longsword is 1d6 and a large is 2d6. If the WP is medium size all of these do 1d6 damage.
Now lets add impact/lead blades, which lets the base weapon damage count as larger.
Now we get M of 2d6, S of 1d8 and L of 3d6. All of this is the weapon's damage which we throw away if using Sacred weapon's 1d6 damage.Similar to Shifter. The Shifter's claws do 1d4 damage. If he turns into a large bear whose claws do 1d8 damage he can either use the large animal claw's damage of 1d8, or replace all of that with his base shifter claw damage of 1d4. The large size was applied to the normal claws and we are throwing the normal claws away for shifter claws and since size had already been factored in, size doesn't change the shifter claws' damage.
the shifter is a little more confusing when it comes to impact and improved natural attack of if they work or not at increasing the 1d4 claw damage.
What your view seems to be saying is replace base weapon damage with new damage amount and then apply all size increases. So the WP would do 1d6 with medium longsword but do 1d8 with the large and 1d4 with the small. And impact/lead blades modifies this new base weapon damage to be 1d8 m, 1d6 s, 2d6 l.
Same with shifter, you're saying to replace the bear's 1d6 claw base with the shifter's 1d4 claw base and then apply the large size to get 1d6.
We feel the rules say take the current weapon's total and replace all of it with this new amount (base 1d4 claw damage) that comes in after all size changes to the weapon.
I don't think I would have come to that conclusion based solely on the reading of the shifter class writeup. I can't speak for warpriest as I barely know anything about the class due to lack of interest. But going straight off the shifter text I can't see how it would work that way.
Re: "replace base with new and then apply all size increases": As in double-dipping? That definitely isn't what I was going for. Maybe I'm misunderstanding again. What I've been trying to get across is that (1) a weapon's base damage is based on its size; (2) a natural weapon's size is the size of its possessor. Changing a weapon's size changes its base damage; this has been the case for as long as people have been picking up large bastard swords or casting enlarge person. The shifter writeup defines the damage for a shifter's claws--again, based on size--and I don't see any manner in which the definition contradicts the usual behavior. Warpriests may work differently--I'm not very familiar with them.
Regarding the bear example, the result would be 1d6 simply because the shifter is now large and a large shifter's claws do 1d6 damage, same as if the shifter had happened to be born an ogre or something. The idea that a gnome shifter in large bear form has different claws than an otherwise identically-statted human shifter in large bear form baffles me--they're both large shifters.
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what's the point of saying replace the damage with the shifter's BASE CLAW damage if they really just meant replace the damage with the shifter's claw damage? This implies that base must mean something and likely something different from just using their shifter's claw damage.
what's the point of saying replace the damage with the shifter's BASE CLAW damage if they really just meant replace the damage with the shifter's claw damage? This implies that base must mean something and likely something different from just using their shifter's claw damage.
Because sometimes writers and editors aren't perfectly efficient, as evidenced by literally thousands of threads on this very forum. : )
what's the point of saying replace the damage with the shifter's BASE CLAW damage if they really just meant replace the damage with the shifter's claw damage? This implies that base must mean something and likely something different from just using their shifter's claw damage.
This is the sticking point for me: base claw damage and modified claw damage are different things. Now as blahpers mentions, this MIGHT be just really, really bad wording but as it's written it's a clear distinction that needs to be removed if it was meant to JUST care about your current claw damage with all size factors [virtual and actual] included.