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I see people suggest this a lot for charisma based builds in general, either lore or nature to get charisma to AC and reflex saves which would really help the sad aspect, but that still means you're gonna be a level behind in most aspects
So lets say you're making a build that goes to pathfinder society standards and goes up to level 13 or 15, would this dip do more harm then good? Why would it be beneficial or not and when should you get the dip?
It's a solid dip. Lore Oracle is great for PFS, meshing the Knowledge checks with Bardic Knowledge means you can easily ramp up your Knowledge checks with little to no effort. It requires the Extra Revelation feat, but easily worth it.
If you're Human, you can take the Tattooed Mystic trait for proficiency in Starknives. With the Desna Divine Fighting Technique (which requires worship or CG alignment), you can get Charisma to Attack and Damage rolls with that Starknife through a feat.
You'll be fully Charisma reliant if you can get Noble Scion of War feat.
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It's a solid dip. Lore Oracle is great for PFS, meshing the Knowledge checks with Bardic Knowledge means you can easily ramp up your Knowledge checks with little to no effort. It requires the Extra Revelation feat, but easily worth it.
If you're Human, you can take the Tattooed Mystic trait for proficiency in Starknives. With the Desna Divine Fighting Technique (which requires worship or CG alignment), you can get Charisma to Attack and Damage rolls with that Starknife through a feat.
You'll be fully Charisma reliant if you can get Noble Scion of War feat.
What worries me is the spellcasting loss will that be a big deal?
Magical Knack trait can shore up your lost caster levels, and permits another dip without caster level loss. As for spell progression, that might hurt a little bit, but having added effectiveness in combat and knowledge checks is probably worth more than reduced spell progression. I'd rather have the A.C. to avoid being hit than a spell or two that may or may not save my skin.
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So, if this is for PFS, Desna Divine Fighting Technique is not permitted. So let’s leave this off the table.
As for the question of the dip, it depends on what kind of Bard you are going to be, and what your specialties will be. The dip will hurt your spell and inspire courage progression. Most bards who dip notice this most at 7th level, when inspire courage normally becomes a move action, and when spells like Good Hope become available.
If you are a really castery bard, this might be painful. However, bards are just all around great. So long as you build to be able to do something in combat, you may not care that much about the dip.
I have four society bards (and one GM baby who will be a bard), all built to do different things. The ones who are primarily caster and support are pure bard. But I have two who are melee specialists who dipped, and I don’t mind the dip on them!
Hmm
What worries me is the spellcasting loss will that be a big deal?
Well, at the first three levels there is more gain than loss. You exchange a bit of bard spell progression against the orisons and level 1 spells of a level 1 oracle.
At character level 4, 7, 10 etc. you suffer from slightly delayed access to higher-level spells, but bards have a bunch of other options, they don't rely on spells that much.
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So, if this is for PFS, Desna Divine Fighting Technique is not permitted. So let’s leave this off the table.
As for the question of the dip, it depends on what kind of Bard you are going to be, and what your specialties will be. The dip will hurt your spell and inspire courage progression. Most bards who dip notice this most at 7th level, when inspire courage normally becomes a move action, and when spells like Good Hope become available.
If you are a really castery bard, this might be painful. However, bards are just all around great. So long as you build to be able to do something in combat, you may not care that much about the dip.
I have four society bards (and one GM baby who will be a bard), all built to do different things. The ones who are primarily caster and support are pure bard. But I have two who are melee specialists who dipped, and I don’t mind the dip on them!
Hmm
Wait wait wait, divine fighting technique isn't allowed? Why?
Wait wait wait, divine fighting technique isn't allowed? Why?So, if this is for PFS, Desna Divine Fighting Technique is not permitted. So let’s leave this off the table.
As for the question of the dip, it depends on what kind of Bard you are going to be, and what your specialties will be. The dip will hurt your spell and inspire courage progression. Most bards who dip notice this most at 7th level, when inspire courage normally becomes a move action, and when spells like Good Hope become available.
If you are a really castery bard, this might be painful. However, bards are just all around great. So long as you build to be able to do something in combat, you may not care that much about the dip.
I have four society bards (and one GM baby who will be a bard), all built to do different things. The ones who are primarily caster and support are pure bard. But I have two who are melee specialists who dipped, and I don’t mind the dip on them!
Hmm
The feat is allowed and most styles are but desna's isn't because it's not listed as legal in additional resources.
The divine fighting techniques... in this book are legal for play except Desna's Shooting Star
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Wait wait wait, divine fighting technique isn't allowed? Why?So, if this is for PFS, Desna Divine Fighting Technique is not permitted. So let’s leave this off the table.
As for the question of the dip, it depends on what kind of Bard you are going to be, and what your specialties will be. The dip will hurt your spell and inspire courage progression. Most bards who dip notice this most at 7th level, when inspire courage normally becomes a move action, and when spells like Good Hope become available.
If you are a really castery bard, this might be painful. However, bards are just all around great. So long as you build to be able to do something in combat, you may not care that much about the dip.
I have four society bards (and one GM baby who will be a bard), all built to do different things. The ones who are primarily caster and support are pure bard. But I have two who are melee specialists who dipped, and I don’t mind the dip on them!
Hmm
The feat is allowed and most styles are but desna's isn't because it's not listed as legal in additional resources.
The divine fighting techniques... in this book are legal for play except Desna's Shooting Star
So they specifically excluded desna's shooting star? That's stupid.
The bard notices a dip most at lv4, lv5, lv7, lv10 and lv11 when you're missing out on inspire courage boosts and new spell levels.
I have bard X swash 1 in PFS, level 7, so this is personal experience.
But mine is a melee guy, so while the delay hurts, that wasn't his main focus anyways and I got a nice boost to what my main thing was, but if you go the stereotype build of no combat ability and focus on skills and buffs then it's a big hit for little payoff. Your reflex save should already be pretty good as a good save, and your AC is less important since you're not planning on fighting.
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So they specifically excluded desna's shooting star? That's stupid.Wait wait wait, divine fighting technique isn't allowed? Why?The feat is allowed and most styles are but desna's isn't because it's not listed as legal in additional resources.
The divine fighting techniques... in this book are legal for play except Desna's Shooting Star
If you think that's stupid then PFS might not be for you or you need to be prepared to deal with lots of stupid stuff, because there's a lot of situation like this when it comes to legality of material.
But look at it the other way, we can be glad they let the feat in for all the other options instead of banning the entire feat because of one deity being to0 strong.
Gee, I wonder why that's not permitted compared to every other junk divine fighting technique out there...
That being said, I imagine Noble Scion of War is probably banned too for similar reasons, and I wouldn't recommend a dip for Charisma to A.C. since a decent Dexterity would be required too for initiative bonuses and the other goodies that you can't switch anywhere else.
On a similar token, I really need to stop giving advice for PFS since I forget 80% of my suggestions are banned. (I actually wonder how PFS has any options at all if most of the typical choices are banned.)
Gee, I wonder why that's not permitted compared to every other junk divine fighting technique out there...
That being said, I imagine Noble Scion of War is probably banned too for similar reasons, and I wouldn't recommend a dip for Charisma to A.C. since a decent Dexterity would be required too for initiative bonuses and the other goodies that you can't switch anywhere else.
On a similar token, I really need to stop giving advice for PFS since I forget 80% of my suggestions are banned. (I actually wonder how PFS has any options at all if most of the typical choices are banned.)
noble scion ot get cha to initiative is legal.
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Yep, Chess has it right. 95% of charisma to everything shenanigans are PFS legal. Although I was disappointed to not see Desna’s divine fighting style make the list, I have seen it in action in a home game and frankly it was underwhelming. It might be interesting on a swashbuckler who can get the damage up a bit more, but frankly... there are so many other ways to fight as a bard.
You literally have a world of options available to you. You can use a rapier with weapon finesse. You can be an archer with a short bow. You use a whip for aid another. You can wield a spear with flag-bearer on it. You can be strength based and just hit things hard with whatever simple weapon you choose.
I have thought about starting up a legalization thread for Desna’s Shooting Star, and still might at some point, but there are lots of other options you can use.
Hmm
Yep, Chess has it right. 95% of charisma to everything shenanigans are PFS legal. Although I was disappointed to not see Desna’s divine fighting style make the list, I have seen it in action in a home game and frankly it was underwhelming.
I agree, I just campaigned mode a 3 part module series with my character using the style. Started off as a scaled fist monk 1, cleric 1, flying blade swash 2 having desna's fighting style and being able to flurry with it going melee, finished up having 2 more swash levels. It worked like the same as having dex to damage would have. There was a pure swashbuckler in the party two and I'd say we were comparable. Desna's style is neat trick, but not really doing much more than slashing grace would have.
noble scion ot get cha to initiative is legal.Gee, I wonder why that's not permitted compared to every other junk divine fighting technique out there...
That being said, I imagine Noble Scion of War is probably banned too for similar reasons, and I wouldn't recommend a dip for Charisma to A.C. since a decent Dexterity would be required too for initiative bonuses and the other goodies that you can't switch anywhere else.
On a similar token, I really need to stop giving advice for PFS since I forget 80% of my suggestions are banned. (I actually wonder how PFS has any options at all if most of the typical choices are banned.)
wat
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Yes, Noble Scion of war is PFS legal. I have it on one of my oracles, and it’s nice, but not so nice that I’m likely to ever take it again.
Then again, I’m the one who had a Paladin with a -4 intitiative... I have never missed high initiative on that character. She doesn’t start fights. She finishes them.
Hmm
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You can wield a spear with flag-bearer on it.
Just to clarify, this only works if you have the wondrous item Banner of the Ancient Kings. The flagbearer feat requires you to hold a specific item, a flag, in a free hand, so you can't attach it to a spear or another item or weapon. The Banner includes specific wording that allows it to work with the flagbearer feat and a longspear.
You can wield a spear with flag-bearer on it.Just to clarify, this only works if you have the wondrous item Banner of the Ancient Kings. The flagbearer feat requires you to hold a specific item, a flag, in a free hand, so you can't attach it to a spear or another item or weapon. The Banner includes specific wording that allows it to work with the flagbearer feat and a longspear.
Read Banner: "This is a banner, flag, or pennant. You tie it to a pole, lance, or polearm."
There are multiple flag listings and at least one allows it to be attached to a spear/polearm.
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You can wield a spear with flag-bearer on it.Just to clarify, this only works if you have the wondrous item Banner of the Ancient Kings. The flagbearer feat requires you to hold a specific item, a flag, in a free hand, so you can't attach it to a spear or another item or weapon. The Banner includes specific wording that allows it to work with the flagbearer feat and a longspear.Read Banner: "This is a banner, flag, or pennant. You tie it to a pole, lance, or polearm."
There are multiple flag listings and at least one allows it to be attached to a spear/polearm.
The Flagbearer feat is quite specific:
As long as you hold your clan, house, or party’s flag (see page 293)
The feat specifies one item, flag, listed on a specific page.
You must hold the flag in one hand in order to grant this bonus.
And you need to hold the flag in one hand, so a spear or a longspear wouldn't qualify.
Darafern: The only issue is that the flag given doesn't work with the feat. Read that flag once. Carrying a flag requires a free hand to hold but if you hold a flag in your hand you don't have a free hand so you then can't carry the flag...Paradox. Unless you have to use it like slashing grace and then it's even weirder.
I've NEVER seen anyone follow that flag for flagbearer but you a banner flag. Everyone that I've seen use it went with 'in a hand' to mean that you had to have at least one hand on the pole/spear/polearm for it to work. It seems SUPER silly that it works fine if it's in your hand by your waist where no one can see it but making it so it's 10' high and it's super clear somehow invalidates it...
I fracking own the Psionics book and I still can't use it in PFS... must admit that when I own the Occult book I might want to try a kineticist or three
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On a similar token, I really need to stop giving advice for PFS since I forget 80% of my suggestions are banned. (I actually wonder how PFS has any options at all if most of the typical choices are banned.)This is a ridiculous exaggeration, PFS allows the vast majority of the content available and in my experience is actually far more permissive than most home games I hear about.
Of course it's exaggerated, it's to express that, no matter how hard I try to give relevant information, PFS swats it away arbitrarily (or because it's overpowered in a way that's apparently not okay, which makes no sense), compared to other options that were far more broken (MoMS dips and Crane Style feat chain, Jingasa, and so on) that were left to persist instead of banning them like they should have, and instead caused more broad repercussions due to PFS backlash causing Paizo to act recklessly and make a very poor decision that they really only tried to make less stupid instead of better rectifying the situation proper. And that's not compared to other options that are just outright nerfed to oblivion in PFS when they're allowed.
As far as it allowing more content than most home games, I doubt it. A lot of home games actually offer 3PP, like Path of War and such, which make for a lot more flexible characters since they don't have to build the same as everybody else would. Practically 60% of Magi and Warpriests in PFS are cookie cutters with typical Dervish Dance/Sacred Tattoo and Fate's Favored combos, simply because nothing else works (as well) in PFS. The factor that optimization is important in PFS, and the lack of comparable options in PFS results in mostly identical builds tells me that PFS isn't nearly as permissive as you make it out to be.
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On a similar token, I really need to stop giving advice for PFS since I forget 80% of my suggestions are banned. (I actually wonder how PFS has any options at all if most of the typical choices are banned.)This is a ridiculous exaggeration, PFS allows the vast majority of the content available and in my experience is actually far more permissive than most home games I hear about.Of course it's exaggerated, it's to express that, no matter how hard I try to give relevant information, PFS swats it away arbitrarily (or because it's overpowered in a way that's apparently not okay, which makes no sense), compared to other options that were far more broken (MoMS dips and Crane Style feat chain, Jingasa, and so on) that were left to persist instead of banning them like they should have, and instead caused more broad repercussions due to PFS backlash causing Paizo to act recklessly and make a very poor decision that they really only tried to make less stupid instead of better rectifying the situation proper. And that's not compared to other options that are just outright nerfed to oblivion in PFS when they're allowed.
As far as it allowing more content than most home games, I doubt it. A lot of home games actually offer 3PP, like Path of War and such, which make for a lot more flexible characters since they don't have to build the same as everybody else would. Practically 60% of Magi and Warpriests in PFS are cookie cutters with typical Dervish Dance/Sacred Tattoo and Fate's Favored combos, simply because nothing else works (as well) in PFS. The factor that optimization is important in PFS, and the lack of comparable options in PFS results in mostly identical builds tells me that PFS isn't nearly as permissive as you make it out to be.
Note to self, never build for pathfinder society in mind if it's gonna be that boring.
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Note to self, never build for pathfinder society in mind if it's gonna be that boring.On a similar token, I really need to stop giving advice for PFS since I forget 80% of my suggestions are banned. (I actually wonder how PFS has any options at all if most of the typical choices are banned.)This is a ridiculous exaggeration, PFS allows the vast majority of the content available and in my experience is actually far more permissive than most home games I hear about.Of course it's exaggerated, it's to express that, no matter how hard I try to give relevant information, PFS swats it away arbitrarily (or because it's overpowered in a way that's apparently not okay, which makes no sense), compared to other options that were far more broken (MoMS dips and Crane Style feat chain, Jingasa, and so on) that were left to persist instead of banning them like they should have, and instead caused more broad repercussions due to PFS backlash causing Paizo to act recklessly and make a very poor decision that they really only tried to make less stupid instead of better rectifying the situation proper. And that's not compared to other options that are just outright nerfed to oblivion in PFS when they're allowed.
As far as it allowing more content than most home games, I doubt it. A lot of home games actually offer 3PP, like Path of War and such, which make for a lot more flexible characters since they don't have to build the same as everybody else would. Practically 60% of Magi and Warpriests in PFS are cookie cutters with typical Dervish Dance/Sacred Tattoo and Fate's Favored combos, simply because nothing else works (as well) in PFS. The factor that optimization is important in PFS, and the lack of comparable options in PFS results in mostly identical builds tells me that PFS isn't nearly as permissive as you make it out to be.
It kind of is. There are numerous threads for PFS in relation to those classes where the cookie cutter options were suggested. And it makes sense, since they're tried and true, and PFS won't do anything about banning those options for obvious reasons that they've used for banning/nerfing other similar options.
Other cookie cutter options are things like Fey Foundling Paladins, Flagbearer/Banner of Ancient Kings Longspear Bards, or even Longspear Reach Clerics, though the latter 2 options are far less common in comparison (maybe 30% tops).
Unfortunately, because Paizo uses PFS as its #1 source for playtesting (because it's all strictly monitored and conducted by their own company, which makes the data it gathers both accurate and relevant to their inquiries), it won't be long until most options in regular PFS gameplay will be formalized into the current game.
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Note to self, never build for pathfinder society in mind if it's gonna be that boring.I wouldn't pay much attention to Darksol. Having played and run a large amount of PFS I see a lot of extremely varied character types. There is enough material available to make whatever you want.
Then maybe you can give me your verdict on this build
Is there anything in here that would make you say "Nope can't run that"
Traits:Cautious Warrior
Clever wordplay
Human
Skills:
Acrobatics
Spellcraft
Knowledge (Arcana)
Perception
Diplomacy
Linguistics
Fly Not until level 7 or 8
Magus Arcanas
Level 3:Obtain Blackblade
Level 4 Hex:Flight
Level 6:Empowered Magic
Level 9:Hasted Assault
Level 12:Ice Tomb
Level 15:Quickened Magic
Feats:
Dodge
Combat Casting
Dilletante
Bonus Feat:Improved Unarmed Strike
Crane Style
Crane Wing
Intensified Spell
Bonus Feat:Improved Critical
Crane Riposte
Dimentional Agility
Primary Spells
Level 1:Shield(SO), Blade Lash, Burning Hands, Blade Tutor's Spirit, Shocking Grasp
Level 2:Bladed Dash, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray, Stone Call, Frigid Touch, Visualization of the Body
Level 3:Storm Step, Dispel Magic, Lightning Bolt, Grasping Tentacles, Greater Magic Weapon
Level 4: Dimenstion Door, Ice Storm, Wreath of Blades, Forceful Strike
Level 5:Greater Bladed Dash, Cosmic Ray
Full Level 1 Spells Known:Shield(SO), Blade Lash, Feather Fall, Blade Tutor's Spirit, Shocking Grasp, Snowball, Burning Hands,
Magic Missile, Secluded Grimoire, True Skill
Notes:Born in Quantium, Studied at the Arcanamirium, Considers Absalom his home.
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Looking through it I don't recognise Cautious Warrior and cannot find it on Archives of Nethys.
I don't see any issue with your feat choices, they are all legal but you will need to use the errated version of crane wing. Personally I wouldn't take dodge or combat casting.
Visualisation of the Body and Blade Tutor's Spirit are not PFS legal but the rest looks fine.
I would recommend investing at least 2 ranks in each knowledge skill which will let you at least roll for checks and means you are getting you Dilettante bonus.
The easiest way to check if something is PFS legal is to search Archives of Nethys. If you see the glyph of the open road next to an item it should be legal. The definitive source is Additional Resources.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/combat-traits/cautious-warrior-combat/
This is the trait in question.
Also what would you take instead of combat casting? Dodge stays because you need it to qualify for crane style.
EDIT:Just been notified that Cautious Warrior is actually aldori Caution which I've been told is Not legal. Sorry about that.
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Personally I wouldn't take the crane style feats at all but if it is what you want to do then you will need dodge. If you are going the strength route then you probably want power attack somewhere in there. If you are going dex then you probably want weapon finesse and possibly dervish dance unless you are mostly going to rely on spells for damage.
Beyond those I might take improved initiative and then probably just extra arcana for every other feat you get. Most arcana will give you far more benefit than any feat you could choose, at least in the levels PFS reaches.
Bear in mind that you can take hexes as well in place of an arcana. You have flight but I would consider adding in stuff like misfortune, evil eye or slumber (although slumber in quite dull). This gives you stuff to do when you don't want to use up a spell slot. I would also make Int you primary stat which will give you more skill points as well. The black blade helps offset the lower attack bonus you will have with a lower dex or str.
I currently have a level 8 dex based hexcrafter/bladebound magus in PFS with the following feats:
Weapon Finesse
Dervish Dance
Extra Arcana
Extra Arcana
Rime Spell (Bonus feat)He has flight, misfortune, evil eye and slumber, with rime generally being used on frostbite.
For traits, if you are investing in diplomacy then you might consider Clever Wordplay to run the skill off Int rather than Cha.
Already way ahead of you with clever wordplay, The idea with that and dilletante is to be a sort of mini investigator out of combat.
I went with crane style cause in a lot of guides and characters i looked up with duelist like combatants i noticed a lot of them had this feat path and it works well since magus's are going to be fighting with one hand free anyway.
Also i should have mentioned with this character their starting point buy (assumed 20)would look something like this
Str:14
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:16
Wis:10
Cha:10
So yeah my magus would be more intelligence based, and would have average consistent damage while having substantially high spike damage, while at the same time being useful outside of combat. The point of this build was less optimization and more versatility and adaptability.
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Note to self, never build for pathfinder society in mind if it's gonna be that boring.
The diversity of builds that I see in PFS is breath-taking. Yes, there are some things that show up a lot, in part because they have been theory-crafted on a guide somewhere. Other things go in wild and crazy directions.
One of the things that I love to see is when someone takes a weird or underplayed archetype and just embraces it for all its worth. Once you figure out how to look things up for legality, this will become so much easier.
I hope that you come and play, and that you have as good a time as I do in PFS. Building like you are for versatility and being good both in and out of combat is the way to go. You'll be able to participate in every aspect of the adventure!
Welcome to PFS!
Hmm
Venture Captain for Play-by-Post Online Play
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Unfortunately, because Paizo uses PFS as its #1 source for playtesting (because it's all strictly monitored and conducted by their own company, which makes the data it gathers both accurate and relevant to their inquiries), it won't be long until most options in regular PFS gameplay will be formalized into the current game.
You’re overstating the effect organized play has on errata. The design team has their own outlook on the state of the game (for better or worse) and doesn’t change that without a clearly visible problem.
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Unfortunately, because Paizo uses PFS as its #1 source for playtesting (because it's all strictly monitored and conducted by their own company, which makes the data it gathers both accurate and relevant to their inquiries), it won't be long until most options in regular PFS gameplay will be formalized into the current game.You’re overstating the effect organized play has on errata. The design team has their own outlook on the state of the game (for better or worse) and doesn’t change that without a clearly visible problem.
I disagree.
While the PDT has their own outlook (otherwise everything that is standard PFS would be the current Pathfinder Core Rulebook, let's be thankful that isn't the case), to say that PFS hasn't had an impact on their decisions is outright false as well, since several character options have been nuked from orbit or completely rewritten to accommodate negative PFS backlash.
Those character options were quite popular, and critical to a lot of signature builds that have been posted on these forums. Songbird of Doom doesn't really work anymore because of said backlash (and it was a very popular out-of-the-box build), Crane Style is nowhere near as great as it could/should be because of said backlash (only because people cheesed it with a broken dip that can be fixed by simply banning the archetype permitting said cheese), several popular items (Jingasa, Falcon's Aim Bracers, etc.) are similarly affected for identical reasoning (the former was because it was constantly taken by most everyone and cheesed with Fate's Favored, the latter because it was better than Lesser Bracers of Archery in almost every way, and for a cheaper price no less).
To say that PFS hasn't had a significant impact on the PDT's rules influence is just flat out wrong, and objectively speaking, PFS would serve as Paizo's biggest source of playtesting due to how palatable the houserules are, and also be the most accurate source of informative data that's extremely easy to collect (after all, PFS is basically a subsidiary of Paizo, and they work in cohesion), meaning other sources of playtest can't even compare unless they are likewise connected to Paizo. I mean, can you think of any other playtest "source" that's equal in its overall assessibility? I sure as heck can't, the closest thing I can come up with is Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro, and they're completely separate entities that haven't collaborated with each other on much other than what the Pathfinder game has built upon and changed.
Fair enough.
I still disagree though.
I never said there was no impact. Just that you were overstating things.
I personally think he's understating it. :P
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Darafern: The only issue is that the flag given doesn't work with the feat. Read that flag once. Carrying a flag requires a free hand to hold but if you hold a flag in your hand you don't have a free hand so you then can't carry the flag...Paradox. Unless you have to use it like slashing grace and then it's even weirder.
You need a free hand to hold the flag. Which means you can't hold other things in that hand at the same time, or hang the flag from other items such as your backpack or a longspear. So the point is that you have to sacrifice the actions of one hand to give the bonus.
You need a free hand to hold the flag. Which means you can't hold other things in that hand at the same time
If only it said that. JUST saying you have to hold it says that. Bringing a free hand in means something else.
So the point is that you have to sacrifice the actions of one hand to give the bonus.
2 from the wording. You need a free hand to hold it, not it take up a free hand. it's worded badly is the takeaway.
Also fun fact: the flag "listed on a specific page" calls it "a colorful banner". If you look up what a banner is in the game, it says "You tie it to a pole, lance, or polearm." Nothing in that contradicts "needing a free hand to hold it".