Toothy half orc question

[Dirkfreemont]

In the APG there is a replacement half orc trait that gives a bite attack in trade for the half orcs ferocity ability. It says It does a d4 and is primary. My question is do you apply strength to this roll? The razortusk feat lets you add half strength if used as a secondary attack with a full attack action. Seems to me this is the intent, to be treated as a secondary attack if used with a full attack and also it seems i should be getting full strength as a primary and half str as a secondary attack. Was thinking about a half orc paladin that gets an extra attack that adds paladin level to damage while smiting, but dont want to spend a feat picking up razortusk. Ferocity isnt needed it seems since I'll get the 1st level spell that allows you to use lay on hands if you drop below zero hp as an immediate action. Oh and I know half orc paladins are rare, but they do exist.

[King of Vrock]

Yes Toothy gives a 1d4 primary attack which means it get full str mod to damage. The only time that changes is if you mix it up with iterative attacks with manufactured weapons or improved unarmed strikes. In that case it becomes a secondary natural attack with 1/2 str mod and -5 BAB.

Toothy is good even if you mix it up with manufactured weapons. If you're using a reach weapon it threatens your adjacent spaces for AoO's at full BAB and full Str.

--Vrockjaw

[Dirkfreemont]

Thks king, thats what I was hoping for.

[Pendagast]

ummmm what if you have toothy AND razor tusk?

[King of Vrock]

Pendagast wrote:

ummmm what if you have toothy AND razor tusk?

They're basically the same thing, it's like gaining evasion twice, they don't stack. As a lenient GM I'd allow taking Razortusk to up the damage die (like Improved Natural Attack) or give a +2 to confirm crits made by the bite. But that's just me.

--Vrock Candy

[0gre]

Pendagast wrote:

ummmm what if you have toothy AND razor tusk?

You only have one mouth. They don't stack.

[Pendagast]

0gre wrote:

Pendagast wrote:

ummmm what if you have toothy AND razor tusk?

You only have one mouth. They don't stack.

so why do they both exist?

[King of Vrock]

Pendagast wrote:

0gre wrote:

Pendagast wrote:

ummmm what if you have toothy AND razor tusk?

You only have one mouth. They don't stack.

so why do they both exist?

Options my friend, options! If I take Beastmaster variant racial trait (which replaces orc ferocity as well) and still want a bite, then I can take Razortusk.

--Schoolhouse Vrock

[Roagh]

Or if the trait wasn't available when you created a PC (like me) you can take the feat and still get awesome bitey flesh rending harpy devouring glabrezu munching coolness.

[0gre]

Pendagast wrote:

0gre wrote:

Pendagast wrote:

ummmm what if you have toothy AND razor tusk?

You only have one mouth. They don't stack.

so why do they both exist?

So you have choices on how you can pick them up.

[DrDew]

If you read the Natural Attack rules it says that natural attacks become secondary attacks when used with a weapon. The text of Razor Tusk implies that it is a primary natural attack if you're not using a weapon.

PRD wrote:

Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Here's a follow-up bit of necromancy: If I get Improved Natural Weapon (or Weapon Focus, or Improved Critical) on the bite, will that feat apply if I wild shape/shapeshift to something that also has a bite attack?

Seems a convenient way to buff my druid's wild shape. Perhaps a tad too convenient.

[Jadeite]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Here's a follow-up bit of necromancy: If I get Improved Natural Weapon (or Weapon Focus, or Improved Critical) on the bite, will that feat apply if I wild shape/shapeshift to something that also has a bite attack?

Seems a convenient way to buff my druid's wild shape. Perhaps a tad too convenient.

It works. Many people take those feats for natural attacks only available wildshaped. It would only work on one natural attack, unless you use the Feral Combat Training + Martial Versatility combo.