Can we use Power Attack feat with a Meiciful weapon?


Rules Questions

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Gallant Armor wrote:
You can't "damage" nonlethal hit points, they accumulate in a completely different way than hit point damage, which reduces your current hit points.

So if you can't damage nonlethal hit points, how are you able to heal them at a rate of 1 HP/CL/hour?

Also
PRD wrote:

Nonlethal Damage

Nonlethal damage represents harm to a character that is not life-threatening. Unlike normal damage, nonlethal damage is healed quickly with rest.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gallant Armor wrote:
You can't "damage" nonlethal hit points, they accumulate in a completely different way than hit point damage, which reduces your current hit points.

The Non Lethal "Damage" is giving the target less HP to work with before they are out of the combat. If you are saying that Non Lethal damage is not damage, then I will ask you if you have marked out all weapons from your books that deal Non Lethal damage, such as the Sap or the Whip. It seems you are saying that they do nothing at all, and Power Attack is only used for damage that is tracked in the one box and not the other.

There is now four threads and you still are holding on to this notion Non Lethal damage is somehow not linked to HP. By this time, nothing is going to convince you on how damage works, and how it effects a target. The only thing I can tell you right now is that there will be characters using Power Attack with Non Lethal damage. There will still be others using Sap Master with a rogue, even if your reading completely invalidates the feat completely.


bhampton wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
You can't "damage" nonlethal hit points, they accumulate in a completely different way than hit point damage, which reduces your current hit points.

So if you can't damage nonlethal hit points, how are you able to heal them at a rate of 1 HP/CL/hour?

Also
PRD wrote:

Nonlethal Damage

Nonlethal damage represents harm to a character that is not life-threatening. Unlike normal damage, nonlethal damage is healed quickly with rest.

Healing nonlethal hit points means removing them from your accumulated total.


thaX wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
You can't "damage" nonlethal hit points, they accumulate in a completely different way than hit point damage, which reduces your current hit points.

The Non Lethal "Damage" is giving the target less HP to work with before they are out of the combat. If you are saying that Non Lethal damage is not damage, then I will ask you if you have marked out all weapons from your books that deal Non Lethal damage, such as the Sap or the Whip. It seems you are saying that they do nothing at all, and Power Attack is only used for damage that is tracked in the one box and not the other.

There is now four threads and you still are holding on to this notion Non Lethal damage is somehow not linked to HP. By this time, nothing is going to convince you on how damage works, and how it effects a target. The only thing I can tell you right now is that there will be characters using Power Attack with Non Lethal damage. There will still be others using Sap Master with a rogue, even if your reading completely invalidates the feat completely.

Nonlethal damage is damage obviously, but there is nothing in the rules to indicate that it is hit point damage, that is the whole point of these threads. The text regarding hit point damage clearly references damage that reduces a targets hit point total.

You can only come to the conclusion the nonlethal damage should be hit point damage if you willfully ignore all references of hit point damage in the rules.


Non-lethal damage to _______. Fill in that blank with hit points and we can end this nonsense. It is non-lethal damage to hit points.


Gallant Armor wrote:


Nonlethal damage is damage obviously, but there is nothing in the rules to indicate that it is hit point damage , that is the whole point of these threads. The text regarding hit point damage clearly references damage that reduces a targets hit point total.

You can only come to the conclusion the nonlethal damage should be hit point damage if you willfully ignore all references of hit point damage in the rules.

Gallant Armor wrote:
Healing nonlethal hit points means removing them from your accumulated total.

If it's not hit point damage how is it being healed in hit points? Once again the rules clearly state how non-lethal is healed at a rate in Hit Points. If your healing them (regardless of whether its from an accumulated total, or adding them back to your total) you are still healing in hit points, which are......damaged.


Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
Non-lethal damage to _______. Fill in that blank with hit points and we can end this nonsense. It is non-lethal damage to hit points.

It quite simply isn't. Damage to hit points reduces the targets current hit points. Nonlethal damage increases the amount of nonlethal damage the target has. These are two separate effects. The fact that they are both measured in hit points is meaningless.


bhampton wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:


Nonlethal damage is damage obviously, but there is nothing in the rules to indicate that it is hit point damage , that is the whole point of these threads. The text regarding hit point damage clearly references damage that reduces a targets hit point total.

You can only come to the conclusion the nonlethal damage should be hit point damage if you willfully ignore all references of hit point damage in the rules.

Gallant Armor wrote:
Healing nonlethal hit points means removing them from your accumulated total.
If it's not hit point damage how is it being healed in hit points? Once again the rules clearly state how non-lethal is healed at a rate in Hit Points. If your healing them (regardless of whether its from an accumulated total, or adding them back to your total) you are still healing in hit points, which are......damaged.

See above post.


Since non-lethal isn't Damage, DR doesn't apply since it only reduces Damage.

Case Solved, You can now kill a tarrasque easier with non-lethal.

Relevant Quote

Damage Reduction wrote:
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks.

Non-lethal Attacks aren't normal attacks and don't deal normal damage.


thaX wrote:

The Non Lethal "Damage" is giving the target less HP to work with before they are out of the combat. If you are saying that Non Lethal damage is not damage, then I will ask you if you have marked out all weapons from your books that deal Non Lethal damage, such as the Sap or the Whip. It seems you are saying that they do nothing at all, and Power Attack is only used for damage that is tracked in the one box and not the other.

There is now four threads and you still are holding on to this notion Non Lethal damage is somehow not linked to HP. By this time, nothing is going to convince you on how damage works, and how it effects a target. The only thing I can tell you right now is that there will be characters using Power Attack with Non Lethal damage. There will still be others using Sap Master with a rogue, even if your reading completely invalidates the feat completely.

"giving the target less HP to work with" is not "reducing hit points." Nonlethal damage is damage, but not hit point damage. Hit Point damage effects HP because they are variables evolved in an equation.

Max HP - hit point damage = HP

You can see how modifying the value of "hit point damage" effects HP. There is an arbitrary number called "nonlethal damage." This number does not effect the HP statistic in anyway. Any excess nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage and is then used in the above equation. Here, we can see that lethal effects HP and nonlethal does not effect HP.

There are special rules for dealing nonlethal damage. Any weapon can do it. Nonlethal weapons simply do nonlethal damage (as per the special rules) without taking the -4 penalty for doing nonlethal damage.

Power Attack only applies to damage in one box and none of the others. There are more than two types of damage.

I think everyone is in agreement that RAI is that nonlethal damage works with Power Attack.

However, RAW, does not support this. Nonlethal damage is never referred to as hit point damage. It behaves differently than hit point damage. It is healed differently than hit point damage. I'm not sure where the sap master rogue came in, as that wasn't even up for debate.


willuwontu wrote:

Since non-lethal isn't Damage, DR doesn't apply since it only reduces Damage.

Case Solved, You can now kill a tarrasque easier with non-lethal.

Relevant Quote

Damage Reduction wrote:
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks.
Non-lethal Attacks aren't normal attacks and don't deal normal damage.

Nonlethal damage is not "real" damage as per the rules. I am not aware of any definition of nonlethal attacks not being "normal attacks."

Do you have any relevant text to support this?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gallant Armor wrote:
Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
Non-lethal damage to _______. Fill in that blank with hit points and we can end this nonsense. It is non-lethal damage to hit points.
It quite simply isn't. Damage to hit point reduces the targets current hit points. Nonlethal damage increases the amount of nonlethal damage the target has. These are two separate effects. The fact that they are both measured in hit points is meaningless.

They are going off the same pool of HP to determine their effects, either Knocked out or Dying. Not sure why you think it is meaningless. See Willuwontu's post there as to how far out in the weeds you can go with this.

Non Lethal and Lethal together adding up to max HPs means unconsciousness. To read it as another type of damage means that another pool of some count would need to be used, something that is not provided by any rulebook in Pathfinder. What would you suggest it be called? Stamina?


willuwontu wrote:

Since non-lethal isn't Damage, DR doesn't apply since it only reduces Damage.

Case Solved, You can now kill a tarrasque easier with non-lethal.

Relevant Quote

Damage Reduction wrote:
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks.
Non-lethal Attacks aren't normal attacks and don't deal normal damage.

Nonlethal damage is damage, it just isn't hit point damage.

As for DR:

Damage Reduction wrote:

Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable...Damage Reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells.

Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even non-magical fire) ignore damage reduction.

Nonlethal isn't called out as an exception so DR would apply.


Mallecks wrote:
willuwontu wrote:

Since non-lethal isn't Damage, DR doesn't apply since it only reduces Damage.

Case Solved, You can now kill a tarrasque easier with non-lethal.

Relevant Quote

Damage Reduction wrote:
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks.
Non-lethal Attacks aren't normal attacks and don't deal normal damage.

Nonlethal damage is not "real" damage as per the rules. I am not aware of any definition of nonlethal attacks not being "normal attacks."

Do you have any relevant text to support this?

Normal Attacks deal lethal damage, ergo Nonlethal is not a normal attack.

Also from the rules

Nonlethal wrote:
Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage.

Not normal attacks, therefore it's not a normal attack and DR is ignored.


Gallant Armor wrote:
willuwontu wrote:

Since non-lethal isn't Damage, DR doesn't apply since it only reduces Damage.

Case Solved, You can now kill a tarrasque easier with non-lethal.

Relevant Quote

Damage Reduction wrote:
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks.
Non-lethal Attacks aren't normal attacks and don't deal normal damage.

Nonlethal damage is damage, it just isn't hit point damage.

As for DR:

Damage Reduction wrote:

Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable...Damage Reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells.

Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even non-magical fire) ignore damage reduction.

Nonlethal isn't called out as an exception so DR would apply.

It also says spells ignore DR, therefore things like Emblem of Greed and bladed dash should ignore it.


thaX wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
Non-lethal damage to _______. Fill in that blank with hit points and we can end this nonsense. It is non-lethal damage to hit points.
It quite simply isn't. Damage to hit point reduces the targets current hit points. Nonlethal damage increases the amount of nonlethal damage the target has. These are two separate effects. The fact that they are both measured in hit points is meaningless.

They are going off the same pool of HP to determine their effects, either Knocked out or Dying. Not sure why you think it is meaningless. See Willuwontu's post there as to how far out in the weeds you can go with this.

Non Lethal and Lethal together adding up to max HPs means unconsciousness. To read it as another type of damage means that another pool of some count would need to be used, something that is not provided by any rulebook in Pathfinder. What would you suggest it be called? Stamina?

I suggest that it be called nonlethal damage and tracked separately from lethal damage as outlined in the rules. The fact that two pools are related is meaningless in this context. Con damage can reduce available hit points as well, should power attack be able to be used with con damage effects?


willuwontu wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
willuwontu wrote:

Since non-lethal isn't Damage, DR doesn't apply since it only reduces Damage.

Case Solved, You can now kill a tarrasque easier with non-lethal.

Relevant Quote

Damage Reduction wrote:
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks.
Non-lethal Attacks aren't normal attacks and don't deal normal damage.

Nonlethal damage is damage, it just isn't hit point damage.

As for DR:

Damage Reduction wrote:

Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable...Damage Reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells.

Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even non-magical fire) ignore damage reduction.

Nonlethal isn't called out as an exception so DR would apply.

It also says spells ignore DR, therefore things like Emblem of Greed and bladed dash should ignore it.

FAQ

FAQ wrote:

Damage Reduction: How does DR interact with magical effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?

Although the Bestiary definition of Damage Reduction (page 299) says "The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities," that's actually just referring to damage that isn't specifically called out as being of a particular type, such as fire damage or piercing damage. In other words, DR doesn't protect against "typeless damage" from magical attacks.
However, if a magical attack specifically mentions that it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, DR affects that damage normally, as if it were from a physical weapon. (Otherwise the magical attack might as well not have a damage type, as it would only interface with B/P/S damage in a very few corner cases, such as whether or not an ooze splits from that attack.)
For example, the ice storm spell deals 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage. If you cast ice storm at a group of zombies, the zombie's DR 5/slashing protects them against 5 points of the spell's bludgeoning damage. Their DR doesn't help them against the spell's cold damage because DR doesn't apply to energy attacks.


Alright, DR doesn't call out Ability Damage as well, so does it apply to that as well then?


willuwontu wrote:
Mallecks wrote:
willuwontu wrote:

Since non-lethal isn't Damage, DR doesn't apply since it only reduces Damage.

Case Solved, You can now kill a tarrasque easier with non-lethal.

Relevant Quote

Damage Reduction wrote:
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks.
Non-lethal Attacks aren't normal attacks and don't deal normal damage.

Nonlethal damage is not "real" damage as per the rules. I am not aware of any definition of nonlethal attacks not being "normal attacks."

Do you have any relevant text to support this?

Normal Attacks deal lethal damage, ergo Nonlethal is not a normal attack.

Also from the rules

Nonlethal wrote:
Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage.
Not normal attacks, therefore it's not a normal attack and DR is ignored.

We've been using the term "nonlethal attack" to describe attacks that deal nonlethal damage. I don't think "nonlethal attacks" are a game term.

Can you provide any evidence that ALL nonlethal attacks are special attacks? The quotes you provided do not logically contradict the view that "normal attacks" can do nonlethal damage.

The nonlethal rules apply to dealing nonlethal damage, it doesn't change anything about the attack.


willuwontu wrote:
Alright, DR doesn't call out Ability Damage as well, so does it apply to that as well then?

" The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities."

"Damage Reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact."

I suppose if you found a non-touch EX attack that did ability damage/drain you could make the argument that DR could apply, although the clear intent is to have DR only apply to B/P/S damage.


willuwontu wrote:
Alright, DR doesn't call out Ability Damage as well, so does it apply to that as well then?

If the ability damage meets the following conditions...

1. Is the effect associated with a normal attack roll
2. Comes from a physical source
3. is not the effect associated with a touch attack

Then I don't see why DR doesn't apply to it. I didn't look particularly hard though, it's late for me. Maybe someone can find something better.

I am not aware of any ability damage that meets this criteria, however.


Gallant Armor wrote:
clear intent

HAHAHAHA!!!!!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I believe Will You Won't You is playing devils advocate here, GA, looking at expanded reasoning of your flawed interpretation. If Non-Lethal is not Damage, then it doesn't get reduced by DR.

Or... eh, something like that. I would like to point out that both are incorrect and that Non Lethal damage would certainly be able to be augmented with Power Attack, as well as a Merciful weapon. Non-Lethal would also be effected by DR, unless it has the necessary quantifier to get past it, such as Cold Iron or Silver for some targets.


Gallant Armor wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Alright, DR doesn't call out Ability Damage as well, so does it apply to that as well then?

" The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities."

"Damage Reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact."

I suppose if you found a non-touch EX attack that did ability damage/drain you could make the argument that DR could apply, although the clear intent is to have DR only apply to B/P/S damage.

Drugs


thaX wrote:

I believe Will You Won't You is playing devils advocate here, GA, looking at expanded reasoning of your flawed interpretation. If Non-Lethal is not Damage, then it doesn't get reduced by DR.

Or... eh, something like that. I would like to point out that both are incorrect and that Non Lethal damage would certainly be able to be augmented with Power Attack, as well as a Merciful weapon. Non-Lethal would also be effected by DR, unless it has the necessary quantifier to get past it, such as Cold Iron or Silver for some targets.

You are correct on all accounts (I agree with you on this whole thread btw)


Mallecks wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Alright, DR doesn't call out Ability Damage as well, so does it apply to that as well then?

If the ability damage meets the following conditions...

1. Is the effect associated with a normal attack roll
2. Comes from a physical source
3. is not the effect associated with a touch attack

Then I don't see why DR doesn't apply to it. I didn't look particularly hard though, it's late for me. Maybe someone can find something better.

I am not aware of any ability damage that meets this criteria, however.

Where does it say DR only affects things that come from Attack Rolls and physical sources, the spells and DR FAQ clearly dictates those 2 points as false.


willuwontu wrote:
Mallecks wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
Alright, DR doesn't call out Ability Damage as well, so does it apply to that as well then?

If the ability damage meets the following conditions...

1. Is the effect associated with a normal attack roll
2. Comes from a physical source
3. is not the effect associated with a touch attack

Then I don't see why DR doesn't apply to it. I didn't look particularly hard though, it's late for me. Maybe someone can find something better.

I am not aware of any ability damage that meets this criteria, however.

Where does it say DR only affects things that come from Attack Rolls and physical sources, the spells and DR FAQ clearly dictates those 2 points as false.
Damage Reduction (DR) from getting started: wrote:
Creatures that are resistant to harm typically have damage reduction. This amount is subtracted from any damage dealt to them from a physical source. Most types of DR can be bypassed by certain types of weapons. This is denoted by a "/" followed by the type, such as "10/cold iron." Some types of DR apply to all physical attacks. Such DR is denoted by the "—" symbol. See Special Abilities for more information.

At the time, I figured it was a non-controversial statement that "normal attacks" have attack rolls. However, if you feel that is not the case, we can discuss it.


Mallecks wrote:

Damage Reduction (DR) from getting started: wrote:
Creatures that are resistant to harm typically have damage reduction. This amount is subtracted from any damage dealt to them from a physical source. Most types of DR can be bypassed by certain types of weapons. This is denoted by a "/" followed by the type, such as "10/cold iron." Some types of DR apply to all physical attacks. Such DR is denoted by the "—" symbol. See Special Abilities for more information.
At the time, I figured it was a non-controversial statement that "normal attacks" have attack rolls. However, if you feel that is not the case, we can discuss it.

I see the physical source (which is clarified by the FAQ to show that it's not only in that case). And I guess normal attacks would lead to that conclusion as well (which the FAQ clarifies as incorrect as well).


"However, if a magical attack specifically mentions that it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, DR affects that damage normally, as if it were from a physical weapon."

Clear intent is for DR to only interact with B/P/S damage. Nonlethal damage can be B/P/S damage (or any other type of damage) so DR would apply to both lethal and nonlethal B/P/S damage by default unless the effect specifically calls out treating damage differently.


The answer SHOULD be yes, because it literally impacts nothing otherwise.

IF people argue, they are simply trying to deny the martial class something.

On no, double max nonlethal damage... It might compare to the lamest spell ever...

Power Attack and nonlethal, who cares?

Yes it works, sap master it up and have fun with your tricks, please.

Anything other than I cast the solve this problem for me spell SHOULD ALWAYS BE ALLOWED!!!

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