Can we use Power Attack feat with a Meiciful weapon?


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You see how you're overthinking this.


Gallant Armor wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
For the people saying that non-lethal is not hit points: how is said damaged tracked?

As quoted ad nauseam:

Dealing Nonlethal Damage wrote:
When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.
It is by definition not hit point damage.

Nice dodge, but you did not answer the question.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ok, so GA, your stance is that Non Lethal Damage would never effect a creature at all, that it is useless to use as it will never knock out a creature?

Or are you saying that Non Lethal Damage is completely separate from Lethal and the two never take each other into account?

Have you ever played Pathfinder, Dungeons and Dragons, or any other D20 game?


thorin001 wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
For the people saying that non-lethal is not hit points: how is said damaged tracked?

As quoted ad nauseam:

Dealing Nonlethal Damage wrote:
When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.
It is by definition not hit point damage.
Nice dodge, but you did not answer the question.

I didn't dodge anything, I quoted the entire section relating to your question.

Nonlethal damage is tracked separately from hit point damage, they are in no way the same thing.


thaX wrote:

Ok, so GA, your stance is that Non Lethal Damage would never effect a creature at all, that it is useless to use as it will never knock out a creature?

Or are you saying that Non Lethal Damage is completely separate from Lethal and the two never take each other into account?

Have you ever played Pathfinder, Dungeons and Dragons, or any other D20 game?

I have no idea what you are talking about. Nonlethal damage will knock a creature out if once nonlethal damage is equal to current hit points. That does not make it hit point damage, it is a completely separate thing.


Gallant Armor wrote:
Correct, and Power Attack only works with "real" hit point damage not "fake" nonlethal damage.

no, fake hp damage is still hp damage power attack works with the fake hp damage


Lady-J wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Correct, and Power Attack only works with "real" hit point damage not "fake" nonlethal damage.
no, fake hp damage is still hp damage power attack works with the fake hp damage

Based on what? Please back up your assertions.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gallant Armor wrote:
thaX wrote:

Ok, so GA, your stance is that Non Lethal Damage would never effect a creature at all, that it is useless to use as it will never knock out a creature?

Or are you saying that Non Lethal Damage is completely separate from Lethal and the two never take each other into account?

Have you ever played Pathfinder, Dungeons and Dragons, or any other D20 game?

I have no idea what you are talking about. Nonlethal damage will knock a creature out if once nonlethal damage is equal to current hit points. That does not make it hit point damage, it is a completely separate thing.

Not quite, it will knock a creature out when the total of both damages are equal to or exceeds their maximum HP.

So if a character has 10 max hp and has taken 4 hp damage, and takes 7 non lethal, it will knock him out.

How is that not related?


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Gallant Armor wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Correct, and Power Attack only works with "real" hit point damage not "fake" nonlethal damage.
no, fake hp damage is still hp damage power attack works with the fake hp damage
Based on what? Please back up your assertions.

What unit of measurement do you use to determine how much damage a nonlethal attack deals?

The issue of real or fake is irrelevant. If an attack deals "fake" hit point damage, it still deals... *drum roll*.... hit point damage.

The kind of hit point damage is irrelevant, because PA doesn't say "real". It only reference "hit point damage". If an attack deals "hit point damage", PA can be applied. Nonlethal damage is measured in "hit points", so therefore PA can be applied.

For PA to not apply, it would have to either specifically call out lethal damage (including it, or excluding other types). It does make a specific call out, but it is excluding non-hit point damage. Any type of hit point damage is applicable. Doesn't matter the "type" of hit point damage, just has to be "hit point" damage.

PA excludes ability damage, level drain, and similar concepts. But it can apply to anything that does damage measured in "hit points".


Irontruth wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Correct, and Power Attack only works with "real" hit point damage not "fake" nonlethal damage.
no, fake hp damage is still hp damage power attack works with the fake hp damage
Based on what? Please back up your assertions.

What unit of measurement do you use to determine how much damage a nonlethal attack deals?

The issue of real or fake is irrelevant. If an attack deals "fake" hit point damage, it still deals... *drum roll*.... hit point damage.

The kind of hit point damage is irrelevant, because PA doesn't say "real". It only reference "hit point damage". If an attack deals "hit point damage", PA can be applied. Nonlethal damage is measured in "hit points", so therefore PA can be applied.

For PA to not apply, it would have to either specifically call out lethal damage (including it, or excluding other types). It does make a specific call out, but it is excluding non-hit point damage. Any type of hit point damage is applicable. Doesn't matter the "type" of hit point damage, just has to be "hit point" damage.

PA excludes ability damage, level drain, and similar concepts. But it can apply to anything that does damage measured in "hit points".

Except it's not as quoted repeatedly. Every instance of the term "hit point damage" refers to lethal damage or damage that reduces hit points. Nonlethal damage is neither of those as it is by definition not lethal and it doesn't reduce hit points.

Nonlethal damage is described as a completely separate entity from hit point damage in the rules. It is damage that accumulates, not damage that reduces hit points or any other statistic.

Please post one quote from the rules, an FAQ, or dev comments that would suggest otherwise. I have no interest in your assertions.


thaX wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
thaX wrote:

Ok, so GA, your stance is that Non Lethal Damage would never effect a creature at all, that it is useless to use as it will never knock out a creature?

Or are you saying that Non Lethal Damage is completely separate from Lethal and the two never take each other into account?

Have you ever played Pathfinder, Dungeons and Dragons, or any other D20 game?

I have no idea what you are talking about. Nonlethal damage will knock a creature out if once nonlethal damage is equal to current hit points. That does not make it hit point damage, it is a completely separate thing.

Not quite, it will knock a creature out when the total of both damages are equal to or exceeds their maximum HP.

So if a character has 10 max hp and has taken 4 hp damage, and takes 7 non lethal, it will knock him out.

How is that not related?

As stated previously, nonlethal damage being checked against hit points does not make it hit point damage, it is a separate entity.

Every mention of hit point damage and nonlethal damage draws a clear distinction between the two.


Oh wow... this has gone of the rails. Hit point damage isn't a "type" of damage. It's damage. Power attack applies to damage. You can't just make up a category of damage based on your reading of a separate rules and try to apply it across the board. If a distinction this meaningful were intended, the rules would have expressed it clearly.


Gallant Armor wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Correct, and Power Attack only works with "real" hit point damage not "fake" nonlethal damage.
no, fake hp damage is still hp damage power attack works with the fake hp damage
Based on what? Please back up your assertions.

What unit of measurement do you use to determine how much damage a nonlethal attack deals?

The issue of real or fake is irrelevant. If an attack deals "fake" hit point damage, it still deals... *drum roll*.... hit point damage.

The kind of hit point damage is irrelevant, because PA doesn't say "real". It only reference "hit point damage". If an attack deals "hit point damage", PA can be applied. Nonlethal damage is measured in "hit points", so therefore PA can be applied.

For PA to not apply, it would have to either specifically call out lethal damage (including it, or excluding other types). It does make a specific call out, but it is excluding non-hit point damage. Any type of hit point damage is applicable. Doesn't matter the "type" of hit point damage, just has to be "hit point" damage.

PA excludes ability damage, level drain, and similar concepts. But it can apply to anything that does damage measured in "hit points".

Except it's not as quoted repeatedly. Every instance of the term "hit point damage" refers to lethal damage or damage that reduces hit points. Nonlethal damage is neither of those as it is by definition not lethal and it doesn't reduce hit points.

Nonlethal damage is described as a completely separate entity from hit point damage in the rules. It is damage that accumulates, not damage that reduces hit points or any other statistic.

Please post one quote from the rules, an FAQ, or dev comments that would suggest otherwise. I have no interest in your assertions.

You haven't proven that it isn't hit point damage. You've asserted it, but you don't actually have any real proof, except for you very strange and esoteric way of reading the words.

Nonlethal damage is damage. Damage is literally in the term.

Nonlethal damage is tracked against hit points.

Since it is damage, and that damage is tracked via hit points, it is therefore hit point damage.

Nonlethal damage does have additional rules to it from lethal damage. Nonlethal and lethal are different, but both are subsets of hit point damage. Looking at how the rules are organized and structured, we also can easily tell that Nonlethal damage is a subset of the injury and death rules, which that section deals with hit points.

By the way, in the weapons section... "All weapons deal hit point damage."


Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
Oh wow... this has gone of the rails. Hit point damage isn't a "type" of damage. It's damage. Power attack applies to damage. You can't just make up a category of damage based on your reading of a separate rules and try to apply it across the board. If a distinction this meaningful were intended, the rules would have expressed it clearly.

Hit point damage is a type. It's different from say ability damage. Power Attack specifically calls out hit point damage as applicable, but excludes touch attacks and anything not hit point related. A Shadow can't Power Attack you for increased Strength damage. You also can't Power Attack Inflict spells.


Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
Oh wow... this has gone of the rails. Hit point damage isn't a "type" of damage. It's damage. Power attack applies to damage. You can't just make up a category of damage based on your reading of a separate rules and try to apply it across the board. If a distinction this meaningful were intended, the rules would have expressed it clearly.
Effects of Hit Point Damage wrote:

Damage doesn’t slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower. At 0 hit points, you’re disabled.

If your hit point total is negative, but not equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you are unconscious and dying.

When your negative hit point total is equal to your Constitution, you’re dead.

Healing Nonlethal Damage wrote:
You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage

"Hit point damage" is used exclusively for damage that results in a reduction of hit points and does not include nonlethal damage.


Irontruth wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Correct, and Power Attack only works with "real" hit point damage not "fake" nonlethal damage.
no, fake hp damage is still hp damage power attack works with the fake hp damage
Based on what? Please back up your assertions.

What unit of measurement do you use to determine how much damage a nonlethal attack deals?

The issue of real or fake is irrelevant. If an attack deals "fake" hit point damage, it still deals... *drum roll*.... hit point damage.

The kind of hit point damage is irrelevant, because PA doesn't say "real". It only reference "hit point damage". If an attack deals "hit point damage", PA can be applied. Nonlethal damage is measured in "hit points", so therefore PA can be applied.

For PA to not apply, it would have to either specifically call out lethal damage (including it, or excluding other types). It does make a specific call out, but it is excluding non-hit point damage. Any type of hit point damage is applicable. Doesn't matter the "type" of hit point damage, just has to be "hit point" damage.

PA excludes ability damage, level drain, and similar concepts. But it can apply to anything that does damage measured in "hit points".

Except it's not as quoted repeatedly. Every instance of the term "hit point damage" refers to lethal damage or damage that reduces hit points. Nonlethal damage is neither of those as it is by definition not lethal and it doesn't reduce hit points.

Nonlethal damage is described as a completely separate entity from hit point damage in the rules. It is damage that accumulates, not damage that reduces hit points or any other statistic.

Please post one quote from the rules, an FAQ, or dev comments that would suggest otherwise. I have no interest in your assertions.

You haven't proven that it isn't hit point damage. You've asserted it, but you don't actually have any real proof, except for you very strange and esoteric way of reading the words.

Direct quotes aren't proof and plain text readings are esoteric?

Irontruth wrote:
Nonlethal damage is damage. Damage is literally in the term.

Agree

Irontruth wrote:

Nonlethal damage is tracked against hit points.

Since it is damage, and that damage is tracked via hit points, it is therefore hit point damage.

It is tracked separately and checked against hit points. Hit point damage is specifically damage that reduces hit points.

Irontruth wrote:
Nonlethal damage does have additional rules to it from lethal damage. Nonlethal and lethal are different, but both are subsets of hit point damage. Looking at how the rules are organized and structured, we also can easily tell that Nonlethal damage is a subset of the injury and death rules, which that section deals with hit points.

Wrong, hit point damage and nonlethal damage are both subsets of damage. Hit point damage and lethal damage are synonymous from a rules perspective.

Irontruth wrote:
By the way, in the weapons section... "All weapons deal hit point damage."

Specific trumps general, also finish the quote:

Weapon Rules wrote:
All weapons deal hit point damage. This damage is subtracted from the current hit points of any creature struck by the weapon.

Further proof that hit point damage is damage that reduces current hit points, nonlethal doesn't qualify.


The first sentence is "All weapons deal hit point damage." Name for me a weapon that doesn't deal hit point damage.

Also, in the rules section on nonlethal... does it say....

It is not "real" damage.

or

It is not real damage.

Maybe you're confused about what quotes mean in a situation like this?

Lastly, have you quoted a dev or faq that backs you up?


Irontruth wrote:

The first sentence is "All weapons deal hit point damage." Name for me a weapon that doesn't deal hit point damage.

Also, in the rules section on nonlethal... does it say....

It is not "real" damage.

or

It is not real damage.

Maybe you're confused about what quotes mean in a situation like this?

Lastly, have you quoted a dev or faq that backs you up?

All weapons deal hit point damage by default, but that doesn't mean it is the only damage type they can inflict. Specific trumps general.

I'm not disputing the fact that nonlethal damage is damage, I am disputing the assertion that nonlethal damage is hit point damage. In my opinion the quotes are signifying that it's still damage but it's not the same type of damage as lethal/hit point damage. That isn't an argument I would make from a rules perspective however as it is open to interpretation. Luckily, we have the rest of the rules that very plainly define hit point damage as damage that reduces current hit points.

I have quoted the rules as written, no one has found anything else so that that is all we have to go on.


Gallant Armor wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

The first sentence is "All weapons deal hit point damage." Name for me a weapon that doesn't deal hit point damage.

Also, in the rules section on nonlethal... does it say....

It is not "real" damage.

or

It is not real damage.

Maybe you're confused about what quotes mean in a situation like this?

Lastly, have you quoted a dev or faq that backs you up?

All weapons deal hit point damage by default, but that doesn't mean it is the only damage type they can inflict. Specific trumps general.

this is correct, all weapons deal hit point damage by default, some do lethal damage and some do non lethal, and yes specific trumps general like if a creature does con damage on an attack with any weapon it will deal both hp damage and con damage on the attack or if something converts all damage into healing that would override the doing hp damage part.


Ok so if the person had 6 HP, and I do 7 nonlethal, could I power attack then? According to what you think, GA


Cavall wrote:
Ok so if the person had 6 HP, and I do 7 nonlethal, could I power attack then? According to what you think, GA

If you meant the target had 6 max HP then yes, because you would be doing hit point damage at that point.

To be clear, you can use power attack when dealing (or attempting to deal) nonlethal damage, but you won't get the bonus damage if the damage dealt is nonlethal.

If both lethal and nonlethal damage are dealt by an attack, then power attack would apply as the attack dealt hit point damage.


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Gallant Armor wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

The first sentence is "All weapons deal hit point damage." Name for me a weapon that doesn't deal hit point damage.

Also, in the rules section on nonlethal... does it say....

It is not "real" damage.

or

It is not real damage.

Maybe you're confused about what quotes mean in a situation like this?

Lastly, have you quoted a dev or faq that backs you up?

All weapons deal hit point damage by default, but that doesn't mean it is the only damage type they can inflict. Specific trumps general.

I'm not disputing the fact that nonlethal damage is damage, I am disputing the assertion that nonlethal damage is hit point damage. In my opinion the quotes are signifying that it's still damage but it's not the same type of damage as lethal/hit point damage. That isn't an argument I would make from a rules perspective however as it is open to interpretation. Luckily, we have the rest of the rules that very plainly define hit point damage as damage that reduces current hit points.

I have quoted the rules as written, no one has found anything else so that that is all we have to go on.

Nonlethal damage does reduce hit points.

If I have 1 HP, and I take 5 points of nonlethal, do I lose hit points? yes/no


Irontruth wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

The first sentence is "All weapons deal hit point damage." Name for me a weapon that doesn't deal hit point damage.

Also, in the rules section on nonlethal... does it say....

It is not "real" damage.

or

It is not real damage.

Maybe you're confused about what quotes mean in a situation like this?

Lastly, have you quoted a dev or faq that backs you up?

All weapons deal hit point damage by default, but that doesn't mean it is the only damage type they can inflict. Specific trumps general.

I'm not disputing the fact that nonlethal damage is damage, I am disputing the assertion that nonlethal damage is hit point damage. In my opinion the quotes are signifying that it's still damage but it's not the same type of damage as lethal/hit point damage. That isn't an argument I would make from a rules perspective however as it is open to interpretation. Luckily, we have the rest of the rules that very plainly define hit point damage as damage that reduces current hit points.

I have quoted the rules as written, no one has found anything else so that that is all we have to go on.

Nonlethal damage does reduce hit points.

Please back up your assertion with something in the rules. Everything I have seen and quoted shows quite the opposite.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

GA,

To say that your wrong is not something I type into this post lightly. Whether you are using a club or a sap, the character will still be able to use (and get the effects of) Power Attack. It only matters about type of "damage" when it is unrelated to normal HP damage one would get. I talk here of Con damage, negative levels, or the like. Non Lethal damage tallies off the same "stat" as normal damage, and only needs a separate record for it because of how it interacts with HP.

I will type it again. Your Wrong. Nothing stated in the rules would preclude Power Attack from working when dealing Non Lethal damage. You have not shown any cause for that not to be the case in anything you have posted.


Yeah you're really overthinking this, GA


thaX wrote:

GA,

To say that your wrong is not something I type into this post lightly. Whether you are using a club or a sap, the character will still be able to use (and get the effects of) Power Attack. It only matters about type of "damage" when it is unrelated to normal HP damage one would get. I talk here of Con damage, negative levels, or the like. Non Lethal damage tallies off the same "stat" as normal damage, and only needs a separate record for it because of how it interacts with HP.

I will type it again. Your Wrong. Nothing stated in the rules would preclude Power Attack from working when dealing Non Lethal damage. You have not shown any cause for that not to be the case in anything you have posted.

Based on what? Every word of the rules shows that I am right and you are wrong. You meet my facts with assertions repeatedly and act as if you are the one with the intellectual high ground.

The text is extremely clear and can be summed up in two points:

    *Power attack only works with hit point damage
    *Nonlethal damage is not hit point damage

This is proven by the text of power attack:

Power Attack wrote:
The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

And the text regarding hit point damage and nonlethal damage:

Effects of Hit Point Damage wrote:

Damage doesn’t slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower. At 0 hit points, you’re disabled.

If your hit point total is negative, but not equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you are unconscious and dying.

When your negative hit point total is equal to your Constitution, you’re dead.

Healing Nonlethal Damage wrote:
You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.
Weapon Rules wrote:
All weapons deal hit point damage. This damage is subtracted from the current hit points of any creature struck by the weapon.
Dealing Nonlethal Damage wrote:
Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

Hit point damage is damage that reduces hit current hit points. Nonlethal damage does not reduce current hit points, therefore it is not hit point damage.

Power attack only works with attacks that deal hit point damage, so if the damage done by an attack is nonlethal, you don't get the bonus damage from power attack.

Please tell me where in the rules it says it works the way you claim it does without resorting to baseless assertions.


Well, where it says "all weapons" not "some weapons". Some deal non lethal hit point damage and some deal lethal hit point damage. They may be tracked separately but they are still damage and by a weapon therefore by your own quote they are hit point damage. Just one kills the other doesn't without massive effort.

I just think the idea of power attacking and having it hit like a feather until you're putcols the suddenly it splits your head open is a little far fetched. I also think the power attack writeup is for things that are either touch spells (Thereby excluding themselves from power attack because they are not powerful) or attacks by things that don't do damage at all (like a stinkbomb or so other thing) which would apply a condition by not damage.

The rest you're over reading man.


Cavall wrote:

Well, where it says "all weapons" not "some weapons". Some deal non lethal hit point damage and some deal lethal hit point damage. They may be tracked separately but they are still damage and by a weapon therefore by your own quote they are hit point damage. Just one kills the other doesn't without massive effort.

I just think the idea of power attacking and having it hit like a feather until you're putcols the suddenly it splits your head open is a little far fetched. I also think the power attack writeup is for things that are either touch spells (Thereby excluding themselves from power attack because they are not powerful) or attacks by things that don't do damage at all (like a stinkbomb or so other thing) which would apply a condition by not damage.

The rest you're over reading man.

Please read before you post. I outlined with excruciating detail that nonlethal damage is not hit point damage. Weapons can deal hit point damage or nonlethal damage with an attack. Both qualify as damage but only lethal damage counts as hit point damage.

"All weapons deal hit point damage" does not mean "All damage dealt by weapons is hit point damage".


@GA: If you exclude non-lethal hp damage from hp damage, then you mult also exclude lethal hp damage.

Since you can die to non-lethal hp damage, and it is determined against hp, I think it is clear that lethal and non-lethal are just sub-types of hp damage.

/cevah


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Irontruth wrote:
Name for me a weapon that doesn't deal hit point damage.

Net. Tanglefoot bag. Lasso. Featherweight darts. Wrist Launcher...


Cevah wrote:

@GA: If you exclude non-lethal hp damage from hp damage, then you mult also exclude lethal hp damage.

Since you can die to non-lethal hp damage, and it is determined against hp, I think it is clear that lethal and non-lethal are just sub-types of hp damage.

/cevah

You can't die from nonlethal damage. You can die from taking so much nonlethal damage that it becomes lethal damage. The attacker attempted to deal nonlethal damage but was unable to and dealt lethal damage instead due to the amount of nonlethal damage already taken. It is lethal damage that killed you.

As stated many times previously the rules make no distinction between lethal damage and hit point damage, those terms are used interchangeably.


I can't really argue this one way or the other. I always run into the same problem when dealing with CDG. Whats the dc to avoid death if I bash you with a sap for 10 nonlethal while your sleeping? 5, 15? Who knows.

Most common interpretation seems to be that PA works, it is just too bad that the best arguments why don't seem to be much better than 'not real damage is still damage though!'


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Gallant Armor wrote:
Cevah wrote:

@GA: If you exclude non-lethal hp damage from hp damage, then you mult also exclude lethal hp damage.

Since you can die to non-lethal hp damage, and it is determined against hp, I think it is clear that lethal and non-lethal are just sub-types of hp damage.

/cevah

You can't die from nonlethal damage. You can die from taking so much nonlethal damage that it becomes lethal damage. The attacker attempted to deal nonlethal damage but was unable to and dealt lethal damage instead due to the amount of nonlethal damage already taken. It is lethal damage that killed you.

As stated many times previously the rules make no distinction between lethal damage and hit point damage, those terms are used interchangeably.

if i hit a commoner for 200 non lethal damage it will kill them so yes you can kill with non lethal


Lady-J wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Cevah wrote:

@GA: If you exclude non-lethal hp damage from hp damage, then you mult also exclude lethal hp damage.

Since you can die to non-lethal hp damage, and it is determined against hp, I think it is clear that lethal and non-lethal are just sub-types of hp damage.

/cevah

You can't die from nonlethal damage. You can die from taking so much nonlethal damage that it becomes lethal damage. The attacker attempted to deal nonlethal damage but was unable to and dealt lethal damage instead due to the amount of nonlethal damage already taken. It is lethal damage that killed you.

As stated many times previously the rules make no distinction between lethal damage and hit point damage, those terms are used interchangeably.

if i hit a commoner for 200 non lethal damage it will kill them so yes you can kill with non lethal

Only because the excess nonlethal damage was converted to lethal damage. Once you reach nonlethal damage equal to max hit points you can no longer take any more nonlethal damage and start taking lethal damage. The lethal damage is what kills the commoner which by definition is not nonlethal damage.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So, A commoner with 10 hp and 10 con.

You hit with non lethal damage, and would need to do 30 non.lethal damage to kill him.

10 non lethal
10 turned to lethal
10 turned to lethal that goes below his hp.

Though you are still doing Non Lethal, it is converted to lethal damage once the Non Lethal damage has equaled the creatures max hp. You saying that it matters not if it is Non Lethal after that threshold. We are saying it doesn't matter period.


thaX wrote:

So, A commoner with 10 hp and 10 con.

You hit with non lethal damage, and would need to do 30 non.lethal damage to kill him.

10 non lethal
10 turned to lethal
10 turned to lethal that goes below his hp.

Though you are still doing Non Lethal, it is converted to lethal damage once the Non Lethal damage has equaled the creatures max hp. You saying that it matters not if it is Non Lethal after that threshold. We are saying it doesn't matter period.

That is because I go by what is written and you go by your own opinion.


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Gallant Armor wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

The first sentence is "All weapons deal hit point damage." Name for me a weapon that doesn't deal hit point damage.

Also, in the rules section on nonlethal... does it say....

It is not "real" damage.

or

It is not real damage.

Maybe you're confused about what quotes mean in a situation like this?

Lastly, have you quoted a dev or faq that backs you up?

All weapons deal hit point damage by default, but that doesn't mean it is the only damage type they can inflict. Specific trumps general.

I'm not disputing the fact that nonlethal damage is damage, I am disputing the assertion that nonlethal damage is hit point damage. In my opinion the quotes are signifying that it's still damage but it's not the same type of damage as lethal/hit point damage. That isn't an argument I would make from a rules perspective however as it is open to interpretation. Luckily, we have the rest of the rules that very plainly define hit point damage as damage that reduces current hit points.

I have quoted the rules as written, no one has found anything else so that that is all we have to go on.

Nonlethal damage does reduce hit points.
Please back up your assertion with something in the rules. Everything I have seen and quoted shows quite the opposite.

You removed my question and didn't answer it. If I have 1 hp, and I take 5 points of nonlethal damage, do I lose hit points? Yes/no


Dang thought we might have had a FAQ


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We don't need a FAQ that tells us damage measured in hit points is "hit point damage". It's stupidly simple and obvious.


Irontruth wrote:
We don't need a FAQ that tells us damage measured in hit points is "hit point damage". It's stupidly simple and obvious.

I agree but honestly sometimes I would prefer to burn one of the few we get a year on stopping stupid than I would get a real answer.


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Gallant Armor wrote:
RAW nonlethal damage doesn't count as hit point damage as "It is not 'real' damage" so it shouldn't work with power attack.

Incorrect. Nonlethal damage is hit point damage.

Page 192 CRB:
Healing Nonlethal Damage: You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.


Irontruth wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

The first sentence is "All weapons deal hit point damage." Name for me a weapon that doesn't deal hit point damage.

Also, in the rules section on nonlethal... does it say....

It is not "real" damage.

or

It is not real damage.

Maybe you're confused about what quotes mean in a situation like this?

Lastly, have you quoted a dev or faq that backs you up?

All weapons deal hit point damage by default, but that doesn't mean it is the only damage type they can inflict. Specific trumps general.

I'm not disputing the fact that nonlethal damage is damage, I am disputing the assertion that nonlethal damage is hit point damage. In my opinion the quotes are signifying that it's still damage but it's not the same type of damage as lethal/hit point damage. That isn't an argument I would make from a rules perspective however as it is open to interpretation. Luckily, we have the rest of the rules that very plainly define hit point damage as damage that reduces current hit points.

I have quoted the rules as written, no one has found anything else so that that is all we have to go on.

Nonlethal damage does reduce hit points.
Please back up your assertion with something in the rules. Everything I have seen and quoted shows quite the opposite.
You removed my question and didn't answer it. If I have 1 hp, and I take 5 points of nonlethal damage, do I lose hit points? Yes/no

You question lacks important context and I have answered many similar questions so it is likely irrelevant hence why I skipped it.

"If a creature’s nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage"

The damage you take from excess nonlethal damage is converted to lethal damage. Lethal damage is what reduces hit points, not nonlethal damage.


Pink Dragon wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
RAW nonlethal damage doesn't count as hit point damage as "It is not 'real' damage" so it shouldn't work with power attack.

Incorrect. Nonlethal damage is hit point damage.

Page 192 CRB:
Healing Nonlethal Damage: You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

Incorrect. "Hit point damage" refers to damage that reduces current hit points.

This is backed up by every mention of hit point damage found thus far:

Effects of Hit Point Damage wrote:

Damage doesn’t slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower. At 0 hit points, you’re disabled.

If your hit point total is negative, but not equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you are unconscious and dying.

When your negative hit point total is equal to your Constitution, you’re dead.

Healing Nonlethal Damage wrote:
You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.
Weapon Rules wrote:
All weapons deal hit point damage. This damage is subtracted from the current hit points

Nonlethal damage does not reduce hit points so it is not hit point damage. The fact that it is is tracked by hit point increments is irrelevant.


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You are wrong. The CRB on page 192 clearly says that nonlethal damage is hit point damage. That is RAW. Any conjectures you may want to make from other passages in the rules are irrelevant.


Pink Dragon wrote:
You are wrong. The CRB on page 192 clearly says that nonlethal damage is hit point damage. That is RAW. Any conjectures you may want to make from other passages in the rules are irrelevant.

Where does it say that? Please quote where nonlethal damage is refereed to as hit point damage. If you are referring to what you previously quoted as I said that proves absolutely nothing. Nonlethal damage is measured in hit points but it isn't hit point damage.

Dealing Nonlethal Damage wrote:
Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

Hit point damage reduces hit points, nonlethal damage accumulates separately and is thus not hit point damage.


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Page 192 CRB:
Healing Nonlethal Damage: You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

You are wrong. By RAW nonlethal damage is hit point damage (quote above). It accumulates separately, but it is still hit point damage. It is not "real" damage, but it is still hit point damage.

If you want to "contextualize" nonlethal damage with other statements in the CRB and then make interpretations based thereon, you are arguing RAI.


Pink Dragon wrote:

Page 192 CRB:

Healing Nonlethal Damage: You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or ability cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

You are wrong. By RAW nonlethal damage is hit point damage (quote above). It accumulates separately, but it is still hit point damage. It is not "real" damage, but it is still hit point damage.

If you want to "contextualize" nonlethal damage with other statements in the CRB and then make interpretations based thereon, you are arguing RAI.

You simply do not understand the terms being used here. "Hit point damage" is a term that is specifically used to mean damage that reduces hit points as previously quoted. Nonlethal damage does not reduce hit points also as previously quoted. Nonlethal damage not being "real" damage is what distinguishes it from lethal hit point damage. Nonlethal damage is damage, but it is not hit point damage RAW.


Gallant Armor wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

The first sentence is "All weapons deal hit point damage." Name for me a weapon that doesn't deal hit point damage.

Also, in the rules section on nonlethal... does it say....

It is not "real" damage.

or

It is not real damage.

Maybe you're confused about what quotes mean in a situation like this?

Lastly, have you quoted a dev or faq that backs you up?

All weapons deal hit point damage by default, but that doesn't mean it is the only damage type they can inflict. Specific trumps general.

I'm not disputing the fact that nonlethal damage is damage, I am disputing the assertion that nonlethal damage is hit point damage. In my opinion the quotes are signifying that it's still damage but it's not the same type of damage as lethal/hit point damage. That isn't an argument I would make from a rules perspective however as it is open to interpretation. Luckily, we have the rest of the rules that very plainly define hit point damage as damage that reduces current hit points.

I have quoted the rules as written, no one has found anything else so that that is all we have to go on.

Nonlethal damage does reduce hit points.
Please back up your assertion with something in the rules. Everything I have seen and quoted shows quite the opposite.
You removed my question and didn't answer it. If I have 1 hp, and I take 5 points of nonlethal damage, do I lose hit points? Yes/no

You question lacks important context and I have answered many similar questions so it is likely irrelevant hence why I skipped it.

"If a creature’s nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage"

The damage you take from excess nonlethal damage is converted to lethal damage. Lethal damage is what reduces hit points, not nonlethal damage.

Evidently you never had to do math or logic proofs in school.

If A=B, and B=C, then A=C.

Nonlethal damage = lethal damage
lethal damage = hit point damage
therefore
nonlethal damage = hit point damage

I agree that it also has additional rules, but you cannot deny the above. And until you can, your argument is bunk.

There are other games (some even 3.5 based) that have something like a Stamina points, where nonlethal would damage would be tracked. In that case, nonlethal damage would be Stamina damage, and not hit point damage. But because Pathfinder uses Hit Points to track nonlethal damage, nonlethal damage MUST be hit point damage. It it was something else, you would track it with a different type of statistic. But you use Hit Points, therefore, Hit Point damage.

The very facts of how the game functions tells us you are wrong.


Irontruth wrote:

Evidently you never had to do math or logic proofs in school.

If A=B, and B=C, then A=C.

Nonlethal damage = lethal damage
lethal damage = hit point damage
therefore
nonlethal damage = hit point damage

I agree that it also has additional rules, but you cannot deny the above. And until you can, your argument is bunk.

First off, nonlethal damage being able to be converted to lethal damage under specific circumstances does not mean that it is lethal damage overall, hence the term "nonlethal damage".

What you have proven there I actually agree with as shown in my previous posts; if you attempt to do nonlethal damage and all or part of that damage is converted to lethal damage then that attack would be dealing lethal/hit point damage and would work with power attack.

However, the vastly more common situation is nonlethal damage being dealt as nonlethal damage.

This results in:
Nonlethal Damage ≠ Lethal Damage
Lethal Damage = Hit Point Damage
Therefore
Nonlethal Damage ≠ Hit Point Damage


Gallant Armor wrote:
You simply do not understand the terms being used here. "Hit point damage" is a term that is specifically used to mean damage that reduces hit points as previously quoted. Nonlethal damage does not reduce hit points also as previously quoted. Nonlethal damage not being "real" damage is what distinguishes it from lethal hit point damage. Nonlethal damage is damage, but it is not hit point damage RAW.

Nonlethal damage is hit point damage, it is just not "real" hit point damage that a character loses when taking lethal damage.

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